Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sculptor1]

Interestingly enough it's my view that much of what was being said 60 years ago about nutrition was lambasted 45 years ago, (with the erroneus guidlines), but coming full circle, has more in common with the energing advice. - which has more or less exonerated saturated fat, and sees dairy fat as anti-inflamatory.

Well, that is music to my ears. I loath margarine but love butter. And yet for decades we've been told butter was bad.

Margerine is positively dangerous, bolstered with factory oils
There is a great reason butter tastes better. It is not fake, and the body knows.
Part of the reason that there has been a general villification of fat is due to the intriduction into the diet of transfats, which initially were not distinguished from other saturated fats. Trans fats are super saturated and introduced into processed food to improve shelf life. Studies that pointed to saturated fat as a problem were did not recognise trans fats are the problem. These fats are resistent to oxidation and bacteria won't touch them but humans have been eating them for decades. Now, thankfully they are banned.
BUT.... Food producers are still allowed to have 1gramme per serving. Guess what? Serving sizes are now reduced to accomodate the restriction.
Moral of this story - DO NOT BUY processed food.

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, it's scary what big food corporations have been able to get away with. And it's not as if you can't get fat on margarine - it probably has as many kilojoules per serving as butter but margarine is much worse in terms of inflammation which has been implicated in everything from mental illness to cardiovasular disease. And it tastes awful. I stopped eating margarine a few years ago and went back to butter. It tastes so much better and I've had no increase in cholesterol levels.

I now think that if I just eat fresh fruit and vegetables, moderate amounts of protein from free-range sources and small amounts of butter, and if I use extra-virgin olive oil for cooking and salad dressings, then my diet will be the best it can be. In other words, if I stay away from processed foods that come out of factories, I can't really go wrong.

[Sculptor1]

Yes, it's scary what big food corporations have been able to get away with. And it's not as if you can't get fat on margarine - it probably has as many kilojoules per serving as butter but margarine is much worse in terms of inflammation which has been implicated in everything from mental illness to cardiovasular disease. And it tastes awful. I stopped eating margarine a few years ago and went back to butter. It tastes so much better and I've had no increase in cholesterol levels.

I now think that if I just eat fresh fruit and vegetables, moderate amounts of protein from free-range sources and small amounts of butter, and if I use extra-virgin olive oil for cooking and salad dressings, then my diet will be the best it can be. In other words, if I stay away from processed foods that come out of factories, I can't really go wrong.

You might find it worthwhile to read Nia Teicholz book "The Big Fat Surprise".
She also appears on a 2 part YouTube documentary and appears with the whole corwd of forward thinking medical professionals, science researchers and other who have been working to re-draw the landscape of food science and nutrition.
I started on this journey with Robert Lustig's "Metabolical". In this he talks about the diabolical marriage that big food corporations have with the American Hearth Association and Diabetics Association.

[Sy Borg]

Christianity has well and truly been deconstructed, reduced to an egg.

I guess the shell is the father, the albumin is the son and the yolk is the holy spirit

Eggs that have fathers are fertilised eggs that contain the wee red spot in the white. Unfertilised eggs don't have fathers .

Acccording to believers, God the father 'fertilised' passive components of the universe and produced systems among which Jesus emerged. NB Mary was unfertilised until God the father fertilised her.

It's amazing how many people believe that human parthenogenesis is possible :)

Your macro description is as some Christians have described it - God "penetrating" reality, penetrating us all. Metaphorically, that would seem to be the case at certain times of history, eg. the Inquisition but, of course, it's really just a matter of power corrupting, as it tends to do.

[Belinda]

Christianity has well and truly been deconstructed, reduced to an egg.

I guess the shell is the father, the albumin is the son and the yolk is the holy spirit

Eggs that have fathers are fertilised eggs that contain the wee red spot in the white. Unfertilised eggs don't have fathers .

Acccording to believers, God the father 'fertilised' passive components of the universe and produced systems among which Jesus emerged. NB Mary was unfertilised until God the father fertilised her.

It's amazing how many people believe that human parthenogenesis is possible

Your macro description is as some Christians have described it - God "penetrating" reality, penetrating us all. Metaphorically, that would seem to be the case at certain times of history, eg. the Inquisition but, of course, it's really just a matter of power corrupting, as it tends to do.

The Inquisition was believed by many to be God's intervention in history however we don't tend believe that now, we believe the Inquisition was politically motivated by The Pope and Co. aided by the huge social structure of Roman Christianity. Some people nowadays do still believe that God intervenes in history but you and I don't believe this.

God did not penetrate reality: God made reality out of chaos. This theory is of course unfair to women as a sex, as chaos is traditionally represented by womanhood. Christianity was therefore Apollonian.The dictionary very briefly explains Apollonian better than I can. I refer to meaning 2. in the dictionary cited. below

Apollonian
/ˌapəˈləʊnɪən/
adjective
1.
Greek Mythology
relating to the god Apollo.
2.
relating to the rational, ordered, and self-disciplined aspects of human nature.
"the struggle between cold Apollonian categorization and Dionysiac lust and chaos"


Dionysus and Apollo please see https://faculty.fiu.edu/~harrisk/Notes/ ... hotomy.htm

[Sculptor1]

One of the big arguments of the reformation was that the communion wine and bread were LITERALLY turned into the blood and body of christ; transusbstantiation.
Protestants tried to maintain logical continuity to preserve the ritual and invented consubstantiation.
Catholics pushed for the Pope's infallibility, and that he could override biblical scriptures. Insisting that the Book stayed in LATIN; whilst Protestants pushed for the content of the bible and the right to be able to find out for yourself through translations.
The protestant spreading of the word did more to undermine and further fragments christainity and rational people would go so far as to reject it entirely as muth and fable. Skepticism, Deism and Atheism were the result.
Reactions to 1000+years of abuse by the RCC also led to a rejection of the dogma of Christianity.
Literalism persisted in many christian cults though. If you ever wondered about the American obsession with zombies - this is due in part to the belief that graves will literally give up their dead.

[Belinda]

One of the big arguments of the reformation was that the communion wine and bread were LITERALLY turned into the blood and body of christ; transusbstantiation.
Protestants tried to maintain logical continuity to preserve the ritual and invented consubstantiation.
Catholics pushed for the Pope's infallibility, and that he could override biblical scriptures. Insisting that the Book stayed in LATIN; whilst Protestants pushed for the content of the bible and the right to be able to find out for yourself through translations.
The protestant spreading of the word did more to undermine and further fragments christainity and rational people would go so far as to reject it entirely as muth and fable. Skepticism, Deism and Atheism were the result.
Reactions to 1000+years of abuse by the RCC also led to a rejection of the dogma of Christianity.
Literalism persisted in many christian cults though. If you ever wondered about the American obsession with zombies - this is due in part to the belief that graves will literally give up their dead.

It was an efficient political move on the part of the RCC to retain as much of the savage Dyonysian as was possible, hence Xian versions of human sacrifice and drinking blood. Protestantism thrived on the scientific enlightenment. I predict that only with Dionysian behaviours can American Protestantism , and indeed Trumpism, survive.

[Sculptor1]

One of the big arguments of the reformation was that the communion wine and bread were LITERALLY turned into the blood and body of christ; transusbstantiation.
Protestants tried to maintain logical continuity to preserve the ritual and invented consubstantiation.
Catholics pushed for the Pope's infallibility, and that he could override biblical scriptures. Insisting that the Book stayed in LATIN; whilst Protestants pushed for the content of the bible and the right to be able to find out for yourself through translations.
The protestant spreading of the word did more to undermine and further fragments christainity and rational people would go so far as to reject it entirely as muth and fable. Skepticism, Deism and Atheism were the result.
Reactions to 1000+years of abuse by the RCC also led to a rejection of the dogma of Christianity.
Literalism persisted in many christian cults though. If you ever wondered about the American obsession with zombies - this is due in part to the belief that graves will literally give up their dead.

It was an efficient political move on the part of the RCC to retain as much of the savage Dyonysian as was possible, hence Xian versions of human sacrifice and drinking blood. Protestantism thrived on the scientific enlightenment. I predict that only with Dionysian behaviours can American Protestantism , and indeed Trumpism, survive.

Is this a Nietschean reference?

[Sy Borg]

One of the big arguments of the reformation was that the communion wine and bread were LITERALLY turned into the blood and body of christ; transusbstantiation.
Protestants tried to maintain logical continuity to preserve the ritual and invented consubstantiation.
Catholics pushed for the Pope's infallibility, and that he could override biblical scriptures. Insisting that the Book stayed in LATIN; whilst Protestants pushed for the content of the bible and the right to be able to find out for yourself through translations.
The protestant spreading of the word did more to undermine and further fragments christainity and rational people would go so far as to reject it entirely as muth and fable. Skepticism, Deism and Atheism were the result.
Reactions to 1000+years of abuse by the RCC also led to a rejection of the dogma of Christianity.
Literalism persisted in many christian cults though. If you ever wondered about the American obsession with zombies - this is due in part to the belief that graves will literally give up their dead.

It was an efficient political move on the part of the RCC to retain as much of the savage Dyonysian as was possible, hence Xian versions of human sacrifice and drinking blood. Protestantism thrived on the scientific enlightenment. I predict that only with Dionysian behaviours can American Protestantism , and indeed Trumpism, survive.

That sounds confused to me. Attributing Dyonysus to one political side and Apollo to the other is, with all due respect, wildly simplistic and simply wrong on multiple levels. It looks to be a cheap way of having a dig at political enemies.

Such a distinction may make a modicum of sense when applied to the Protestant breakaway from Catholicism, but the driver was inherently hedonistic - Henry VIII's wish to divorce his wife. Modernisation - a streamlining of primitive practices - was basically a tool to distinguish the churches of England and Rome.

[Belinda]

One of the big arguments of the reformation was that the communion wine and bread were LITERALLY turned into the blood and body of christ; transusbstantiation.
Protestants tried to maintain logical continuity to preserve the ritual and invented consubstantiation.
Catholics pushed for the Pope's infallibility, and that he could override biblical scriptures. Insisting that the Book stayed in LATIN; whilst Protestants pushed for the content of the bible and the right to be able to find out for yourself through translations.
The protestant spreading of the word did more to undermine and further fragments christainity and rational people would go so far as to reject it entirely as muth and fable. Skepticism, Deism and Atheism were the result.
Reactions to 1000+years of abuse by the RCC also led to a rejection of the dogma of Christianity.
Literalism persisted in many christian cults though. If you ever wondered about the American obsession with zombies - this is due in part to the belief that graves will literally give up their dead.

It was an efficient political move on the part of the RCC to retain as much of the savage Dyonysian as was possible, hence Xian versions of human sacrifice and drinking blood. Protestantism thrived on the scientific enlightenment. I predict that only with Dionysian behaviours can American Protestantism , and indeed Trumpism, survive.

Is this a Nietschean reference?

Nietzsche did have opinions about the broad social -psychological divide between the Apollonian and the Dionysian. Jane Austen in her 'Sense and Sensibility' has it as a theme without mentioning those two personifications. American Protestantism includes those churches where people seem to be having a lot of fun, I think they are Southern Baptist where singing and dancing goes on.
The RCC in it's wisdom built old parish churches on ancient pagan sites , and the RCC christianised Yuletide, the spring fertility rites, and Samhain with its bonfires and ghosts.Moderation between the Apollonian and the Dionysian is generally recommended for social-psychological health.

I gather that Trump actively makes rioting and general unreason into a fun thing for his followers. The Apollonian/Dionysian divide is a useful hermeneutic.
Will Kamala Harris inject some emotional unreason into her campaign or are Democrats too intellectual to tolerate that?

[Sy Borg]

Again, describing one side as Dyonysian and the other as Apollian is ridiculous, blatant political bias, bereft of any reason or logic.

Consider the food deserts created in California created by rampant effectively legalised theft of businesses by idealistic socialist Democrats in that state. That is at least as Dyonysian as Trump's rioting anti-democratic supporters on 6 January.

[Sculptor1]

Again, describing one side as Dyonysian and the other as Apollian is ridiculous, blatant political bias, bereft of any reason or logic.

Consider the food deserts created in California created by rampant effectively legalised theft of businesses by idealistic socialist Democrats in that state. That is at least as Dyonysian as Trump's rioting anti-democratic supporters on 6 January.

Probably the most unhinged comment I have read for weeks.

Idealistic Socialists create food deserts.

What drugs are you on?
LOL

[Sculptor1]

One of the big arguments of the reformation was that the communion wine and bread were LITERALLY turned into the blood and body of christ; transusbstantiation.
Protestants tried to maintain logical continuity to preserve the ritual and invented consubstantiation.
Catholics pushed for the Pope's infallibility, and that he could override biblical scriptures. Insisting that the Book stayed in LATIN; whilst Protestants pushed for the content of the bible and the right to be able to find out for yourself through translations.
The protestant spreading of the word did more to undermine and further fragments christainity and rational people would go so far as to reject it entirely as muth and fable. Skepticism, Deism and Atheism were the result.
Reactions to 1000+years of abuse by the RCC also led to a rejection of the dogma of Christianity.
Literalism persisted in many christian cults though. If you ever wondered about the American obsession with zombies - this is due in part to the belief that graves will literally give up their dead.

It was an efficient political move on the part of the RCC to retain as much of the savage Dyonysian as was possible, hence Xian versions of human sacrifice and drinking blood. Protestantism thrived on the scientific enlightenment. I predict that only with Dionysian behaviours can American Protestantism , and indeed Trumpism, survive.

Is this a Nietschean reference?

Nietzsche did have opinions about the broad social -psychological divide between the Apollonian and the Dionysian. Jane Austen in her 'Sense and Sensibility' has it as a theme without mentioning those two personifications. American Protestantism includes those churches where people seem to be having a lot of fun, I think they are Southern Baptist where singing and dancing goes on.
The RCC in it's wisdom built old parish churches on ancient pagan sites , and the RCC christianised Yuletide, the spring fertility rites, and Samhain with its bonfires and ghosts.Moderation between the Apollonian and the Dionysian is generally recommended for social-psychological health.

I gather that Trump actively makes rioting and general unreason into a fun thing for his followers. The Apollonian/Dionysian divide is a useful hermeneutic.
Will Kamala Harris inject some emotional unreason into her campaign or are Democrats too intellectual to tolerate that?

Whilst I think Nietsche's Phd thesis might be interesting in terms of Greek philology, I do not feel under any obligation to apply it elsewhere. The dihotomy is an imposition; an interpretive device where we can sunder various themes in Greek Drama. But the political realities of Christianity and Society are not the creative genius of a single author, unless you beleive in god. And so I simply do not find it very useful as a tool elsewhere.
We may find Dionysis and Apollo lurking across the Christian spectrum. It would not take long to make a case for unvailing these tendancies in other religions from the Jewish myth through to Hindu and Islam fantasies. but the actual contents and motivations that are present in religiious practice go way beyond this dichotomy.
Applying it might be of some interest, but its a bit like the tail wagging the dog.
How would you take a single issue, such as abortion and apply it to that alone?

[Belinda]

It was an efficient political move on the part of the RCC to retain as much of the savage Dyonysian as was possible, hence Xian versions of human sacrifice and drinking blood. Protestantism thrived on the scientific enlightenment. I predict that only with Dionysian behaviours can American Protestantism , and indeed Trumpism, survive.

Is this a Nietschean reference?

Nietzsche did have opinions about the broad social -psychological divide between the Apollonian and the Dionysian. Jane Austen in her 'Sense and Sensibility' has it as a theme without mentioning those two personifications. American Protestantism includes those churches where people seem to be having a lot of fun, I think they are Southern Baptist where singing and dancing goes on.
The RCC in it's wisdom built old parish churches on ancient pagan sites , and the RCC christianised Yuletide, the spring fertility rites, and Samhain with its bonfires and ghosts.Moderation between the Apollonian and the Dionysian is generally recommended for social-psychological health.

I gather that Trump actively makes rioting and general unreason into a fun thing for his followers. The Apollonian/Dionysian divide is a useful hermeneutic.
Will Kamala Harris inject some emotional unreason into her campaign or are Democrats too intellectual to tolerate that?

Whilst I think Nietsche's Phd thesis might be interesting in terms of Greek philology, I do not feel under any obligation to apply it elsewhere. The dihotomy is an imposition; an interpretive device where we can sunder various themes in Greek Drama. But the political realities of Christianity and Society are not the creative genius of a single author, unless you beleive in god. And so I simply do not find it very useful as a tool elsewhere.
We may find Dionysis and Apollo lurking across the Christian spectrum. It would not take long to make a case for unvailing these tendancies in other religions from the Jewish myth through to Hindu and Islam fantasies. but the actual contents and motivations that are present in religiious practice go way beyond this dichotomy.
Applying it might be of some interest, but its a bit like the tail wagging the dog.
How would you take a single issue, such as abortion and apply it to that alone?

Well the abortion scenario is a challenge I can't resist.

I might describe some young Dionysian expectant mother in terms such as drunk with delight that she would have a beloved baby to care for, a young woman whose happy anticipation leaves no space to reckon that she needs to think about the hard facts of bringing up a child .
Her more Apollonian mother while not unsympathetic is concerned for the welfare of her daughter and the baby, and even considers abortion and adoption.

The expectant mother believes feeling is the priority , and the grandmother- to- be believes that reason is the priority.
They are psychological stereotypes, I think there is a bell curve. The poor old Apollonians are usually the ones who end up looking after the Dionysians.

There won't be too many Dionysians doing philosophy, or legislating .

[Sculptor1]

Is this a Nietschean reference?

Nietzsche did have opinions about the broad social -psychological divide between the Apollonian and the Dionysian. Jane Austen in her 'Sense and Sensibility' has it as a theme without mentioning those two personifications. American Protestantism includes those churches where people seem to be having a lot of fun, I think they are Southern Baptist where singing and dancing goes on.
The RCC in it's wisdom built old parish churches on ancient pagan sites , and the RCC christianised Yuletide, the spring fertility rites, and Samhain with its bonfires and ghosts.Moderation between the Apollonian and the Dionysian is generally recommended for social-psychological health.

I gather that Trump actively makes rioting and general unreason into a fun thing for his followers. The Apollonian/Dionysian divide is a useful hermeneutic.
Will Kamala Harris inject some emotional unreason into her campaign or are Democrats too intellectual to tolerate that?

Whilst I think Nietsche's Phd thesis might be interesting in terms of Greek philology, I do not feel under any obligation to apply it elsewhere. The dihotomy is an imposition; an interpretive device where we can sunder various themes in Greek Drama. But the political realities of Christianity and Society are not the creative genius of a single author, unless you beleive in god. And so I simply do not find it very useful as a tool elsewhere.
We may find Dionysis and Apollo lurking across the Christian spectrum. It would not take long to make a case for unvailing these tendancies in other religions from the Jewish myth through to Hindu and Islam fantasies. but the actual contents and motivations that are present in religiious practice go way beyond this dichotomy.
Applying it might be of some interest, but its a bit like the tail wagging the dog.
How would you take a single issue, such as abortion and apply it to that alone?

Well the abortion scenario is a challenge I can't resist.

I might describe some young Dionysian expectant mother in terms such as drunk with delight that she would have a beloved baby to care for, a young woman whose happy anticipation leaves no space to reckon that she needs to think about the hard facts of bringing up a child .
Her more Apollonian mother while not unsympathetic is concerned for the welfare of her daughter and the baby, and even considers abortion and adoption.

The expectant mother believes feeling is the priority , and the grandmother- to- be believes that reason is the priority.
They are psychological stereotypes, I think there is a bell curve. The poor old Apollonians are usually the ones who end up looking after the Dionysians.

There won't be too many Dionysians doing philosophy, or legislating .

Hah.
You could as easily attribute the Appolonia to the young woman, and the mother the the DIonysian.
The young woman as Apollo wants to abort the baby from a rational position; whilst the loving boundless mother sets aside her practicality and demands that she keep the baby,for the joy of the feelings
Conversely the young woman as Dionysus wants to enjoy the embodied experience and the joy of parenthood, so throwing aside the rationality decides to keep the baby. The parent now as Apollo uses reason, honour, and rationality to demand that the baby is kept to support and perpetuate the family tradition.

So you can have the pregnant women and her mother as either dionysus or Apollo chosing either one in either case; keep or abort makes no difference.
QED the Neitschean dichotomy says precisely zero about the issue and how it ought to inform the ethical position.