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[Pattern-chaser]

Who will stop the psychopaths? We will, by imprisonment or some similar form of constraint, protecting those who have not yet been harmed. Can vengeance do that?

Does anyone doubt that unpunished bad (self serving) behavior encourages more of that behaviour?

I would say un-responded-to, not "unpunished", but yes, I agree with your sentiment. No response would send the message that it's OK, and no-one cares or minds. So I think there should always be some response to any serious crime. Doesn't everyone? I hope so...

[LuckyR]

While I understand the logic behind avoiding vengeance, I also believe there's a place for it. In some cases, justice can only be served through retribution. [...] It's a complex issue with no easy answers.

Yes, if there is no retribution, what will stop psychopaths from wreaking havoc on decent people?

It's hard to see how "justice can only be served through retribution". Maybe an example would illustrate your point?

Who will stop the psychopaths? We will, by imprisonment or some similar form of constraint, protecting those who have not yet been harmed. Can vengeance do that?

Does anyone doubt that unpunished bad (self serving) behavior encourages more of that behaviour?

A thing undone is no cause.

Sorry for being dense. Please elucidate.

[Sculptor1]

It's hard to see how "justice can only be served through retribution". Maybe an example would illustrate your point?

Who will stop the psychopaths? We will, by imprisonment or some similar form of constraint, protecting those who have not yet been harmed. Can vengeance do that?

Does anyone doubt that unpunished bad (self serving) behavior encourages more of that behaviour?

A thing undone is no cause.

Sorry for being dense. Please elucidate.

Whilst it might be possible to say that punishment might discourage further bad behaviour; it is not possible to say that going unpunished is a postive encouragement.

[Sculptor1]

It's hard to see how "justice can only be served through retribution". Maybe an example would illustrate your point?

Who will stop the psychopaths? We will, by imprisonment or some similar form of constraint, protecting those who have not yet been harmed. Can vengeance do that?

Does anyone doubt that unpunished bad (self serving) behavior encourages more of that behaviour?

A thing undone is no cause.

Sorry for being dense. Please elucidate.

PS.
Further to my previous statement. If we look at Trump, as an example, it seems that no amount of attempts to punish his activities seemt to have resulted in a reduction let alone cessation of bad behaviour. He now faces multiple gaol sentences, and further trials. He needs no encouragement, and seem incapable of taking the hint from the multiple court cases he has already lost.

[LuckyR]

Does anyone doubt that unpunished bad (self serving) behavior encourages more of that behaviour?

A thing undone is no cause.

Sorry for being dense. Please elucidate.

Whilst it might be possible to say that punishment might discourage further bad behaviour; it is not possible to say that going unpunished is a postive encouragement.

Let's say people can have low, average or high levels of propensity to commit a hurtful act. I believe you're saying that punishment might lower someone from average to low, but no punishment will leave them at average (not increase it to high).

Sorry but that's not my experience. Anyone with a child or even a dog knows that if an individual stumbles across an action that is positive for the individual (and in our case quite negative for others), in the absence of a deterent, tends to repeat the action until it becomes a (bad) habit.

[Sculptor1]

A thing undone is no cause.

Sorry for being dense. Please elucidate.

Whilst it might be possible to say that punishment might discourage further bad behaviour; it is not possible to say that going unpunished is a postive encouragement.

Let's say people can have low, average or high levels of propensity to commit a hurtful act. I believe you're saying that punishment might lower someone from average to low, but no punishment will leave them at average (not increase it to high).

Sorry but that's not my experience. Anyone with a child or even a dog knows that if an individual stumbles across an action that is positive for the individual (and in our case quite negative for others), in the absence of a deterent, tends to repeat the action until it becomes a (bad) habit.

No I am saying exactly what I am saying. I simple refuted your claim above bey saying Doing nothing can not make a positive. IN action cannot discourage or encourage.
Not sure why you are not getting this.

If I sit on my hands and say nothing, do nothng, that is not an encouragement.

[Sculptor1]

A thing undone is no cause.

Sorry for being dense. Please elucidate.

Whilst it might be possible to say that punishment might discourage further bad behaviour; it is not possible to say that going unpunished is a postive encouragement.

Let's say people can have low, average or high levels of propensity to commit a hurtful act. I believe you're saying that punishment might lower someone from average to low, but no punishment will leave them at average (not increase it to high).

Sorry but that's not my experience. Anyone with a child or even a dog knows that if an individual stumbles across an action that is positive for the individual (and in our case quite negative for others), in the absence of a deterent, tends to repeat the action until it becomes a (bad) habit.

No I am saying exactly what I am saying. I simple refuted your claim above bey saying Doing nothing can not make a positive. IN action cannot discourage or encourage.
Not sure why you are not getting this.

If I sit on my hands and say nothing, do nothng, that is not an encouragement.

[LuckyR]

Sorry for being dense. Please elucidate.

Whilst it might be possible to say that punishment might discourage further bad behaviour; it is not possible to say that going unpunished is a postive encouragement.

Let's say people can have low, average or high levels of propensity to commit a hurtful act. I believe you're saying that punishment might lower someone from average to low, but no punishment will leave them at average (not increase it to high).

Sorry but that's not my experience. Anyone with a child or even a dog knows that if an individual stumbles across an action that is positive for the individual (and in our case quite negative for others), in the absence of a deterent, tends to repeat the action until it becomes a (bad) habit.

No I am saying exactly what I am saying. I simple refuted your claim above bey saying Doing nothing can not make a positive. IN action cannot discourage or encourage.
Not sure why you are not getting this.

If I sit on my hands and say nothing, do nothng, that is not an encouragement.

Got it. Technically we are in agreement, since we agree that the ACTION of doing nothing does nothing and just allows the situation to continue down it's normal path. My point is that this normal path leads to increased propensity for evil doing. Not because of inaction, it's just the nature of the situation. So if you're interested in less evil doing, a response will help with that.

[Samana Johann]

Whilst it might be possible to say that punishment might discourage further bad behaviour; it is not possible to say that going unpunished is a postive encouragement.

Let's say people can have low, average or high levels of propensity to commit a hurtful act. I believe you're saying that punishment might lower someone from average to low, but no punishment will leave them at average (not increase it to high).

Sorry but that's not my experience. Anyone with a child or even a dog knows that if an individual stumbles across an action that is positive for the individual (and in our case quite negative for others), in the absence of a deterent, tends to repeat the action until it becomes a (bad) habit.

No I am saying exactly what I am saying. I simple refuted your claim above bey saying Doing nothing can not make a positive. IN action cannot discourage or encourage.
Not sure why you are not getting this.

If I sit on my hands and say nothing, do nothng, that is not an encouragement.

Got it. Technically we are in agreement, since we agree that the ACTION of doing nothing does nothing and just allows the situation to continue down it's normal path. My point is that this normal path leads to increased propensity for evil doing. Not because of inaction, it's just the nature of the situation. So if you're interested in less evil doing, a response will help with that.

May good householder, in his assumings, not forget that deeds by thought actually determine all verbal (signs) and bodily actions. So it's not so that inaction, just by speech and body is ensured to do nothing. Not acting outwardly, can be done by craving, aversion and/ignorance, and mental actions have actually more impact then actions by speech and body.

That's something strong impacts the topic. While an action by body or speech might be thought to be not just vengeance, say by not care about the wrong doer out of aversion, thinking "get lost with your ways, you'll gain the results of them", is an evil one, another who might approach by blame and encouragements, seeing the wrong doers misery, if not bending ways, thinking to act out of compassion, acts good.

Somebody who does not understand that while right speech and right bodily actions build a fence of good virtue (not for harm, not harming), intention goes even more deeper into what's actually vengeance, or just proper act, or even compassionate.

Inaction, in proper meaning, means ignorant. Ignorance, not knowing, is the source of all wrong and lose.

Not to confuse with no more acting for any personal purpose, of one gone beyond. Such, craving and ignorance abound, is incapable to act out of vengeance or act rooted in craving, aversion or illusion.

Even common laws try to punish the bad and immoral action of common inaction, often rightly. Such as not pointing out, telling, a wrong (crime) of someone, if able to.

[Sculptor1]

Whilst it might be possible to say that punishment might discourage further bad behaviour; it is not possible to say that going unpunished is a postive encouragement.

Let's say people can have low, average or high levels of propensity to commit a hurtful act. I believe you're saying that punishment might lower someone from average to low, but no punishment will leave them at average (not increase it to high).

Sorry but that's not my experience. Anyone with a child or even a dog knows that if an individual stumbles across an action that is positive for the individual (and in our case quite negative for others), in the absence of a deterent, tends to repeat the action until it becomes a (bad) habit.

No I am saying exactly what I am saying. I simple refuted your claim above bey saying Doing nothing can not make a positive. IN action cannot discourage or encourage.
Not sure why you are not getting this.

If I sit on my hands and say nothing, do nothng, that is not an encouragement.

Got it. Technically we are in agreement, since we agree that the ACTION of doing nothing does nothing and just allows the situation to continue down it's normal path. My point is that this normal path leads to increased propensity for evil doing. Not because of inaction, it's just the nature of the situation. So if you're interested in less evil doing, a response will help with that.

Meh.
Stocks and shares can go up or down. Some bad acts are singular some might leads to more, some may offer self encouragement.

[LuckyR]

Let's say people can have low, average or high levels of propensity to commit a hurtful act. I believe you're saying that punishment might lower someone from average to low, but no punishment will leave them at average (not increase it to high).

Sorry but that's not my experience. Anyone with a child or even a dog knows that if an individual stumbles across an action that is positive for the individual (and in our case quite negative for others), in the absence of a deterent, tends to repeat the action until it becomes a (bad) habit.

No I am saying exactly what I am saying. I simple refuted your claim above bey saying Doing nothing can not make a positive. IN action cannot discourage or encourage.
Not sure why you are not getting this.

If I sit on my hands and say nothing, do nothng, that is not an encouragement.

Got it. Technically we are in agreement, since we agree that the ACTION of doing nothing does nothing and just allows the situation to continue down it's normal path. My point is that this normal path leads to increased propensity for evil doing. Not because of inaction, it's just the nature of the situation. So if you're interested in less evil doing, a response will help with that.

Meh.
Stocks and shares can go up or down. Some bad acts are singular some might leads to more, some may offer self encouragement.

Not untrue, but are you going to take the chance that the punk kid who cold cocked your kid today is going to randomly stop doing so in the future?

[Sculptor1]

No I am saying exactly what I am saying. I simple refuted your claim above bey saying Doing nothing can not make a positive. IN action cannot discourage or encourage.
Not sure why you are not getting this.

If I sit on my hands and say nothing, do nothng, that is not an encouragement.

Got it. Technically we are in agreement, since we agree that the ACTION of doing nothing does nothing and just allows the situation to continue down it's normal path. My point is that this normal path leads to increased propensity for evil doing. Not because of inaction, it's just the nature of the situation. So if you're interested in less evil doing, a response will help with that.

Meh.
Stocks and shares can go up or down. Some bad acts are singular some might leads to more, some may offer self encouragement.

Not untrue, but are you going to take the chance that the punk kid who cold cocked your kid today is going to randomly stop doing so in the future?

It is true, what I said. I am not advocating for no action, as you are implying. you are just strawmaning me.

[David awunor]

"Vengeance is not something I support because it causes more harm than good. Forgiveness is the best."

[Vanamali Thotapalli]

"Vengeance is not something I support because it causes more harm than good. Forgiveness is the best."

Even better is Justice - nothing wrong with asking for things to be set right. If someone drives drunk and causes property damage, it does not give me satisfaction to see that person jailed or harmed but what WILL give me satisfaction or Justice is for my property to be made whole, payment made so that I set things back the way they were

Forgiveness seems to be all about the criminal, not the victim. Religions like Christianity & Islam push this view because well, Hinduism says we must come back - if we have unpaid debts or offenses committed that we have not made amends for, we must come back and set things right, pay our debts
That does not sit well with Christianity & Islam - they want to get away to Heaven - enjoy the easy good life!
Hence Repentance - cry - cry for what? Not for the loss faced by the victim, but for themselves - "ooh I feel soo bad! Forgive me God, so that I can scoot off to Heaven!" A a nice God will nicely Forgive the criminal and off he goes to Heaven!
.
Such tears won't work in real life - if you committed a crime, no judge will nicely forgive because you felt bad - he will make you pay, make amends!
Forgiveness should ALWAYS be EARNED, never GIVEN!
And only the victim has the right to forgive, not a Judge, not God
And the victim WILL forgive once amends are made - things set back the way they were - Justice!

[Vanamali Thotapalli]

It's hard to see how "justice can only be served through retribution". Maybe an example would illustrate your point?

Who will stop the psychopaths? We will, by imprisonment or some similar form of constraint, protecting those who have not yet been harmed. Can vengeance do that?

And no one ever mentions the victims in this - i find it frightening!
how does putting the criminal in jail or punishing them help the victim?
If a father loses his daughter to an abductor, does the father or mother care that the criminal has died a cruel death or worse?
They want their daughter back - that is what is of the most importance
And yet thru all these replies not one mention of the victim, how they feel, what they want! nothing!
Where is the Justice for them?
.
We recently have had a shooting in Georgia - 4 innocent lives lost
So the criminal has been caught, he will be jailed for life
But how does help the living victims of these 4 victims?
Those kids mother and father will never see their kids again, never hug them. No more birthday celebrations, every time their birthdays come along, these parents will sit and cry! Every time one of their classmates goes off to college or graduates or gets married - they will be reminded of their lost loved ones! A heartache they will bear all their lives!
And the two teachers that were killed - their children have lost a father, a mother! Now the single parent will struggle to bring them up!
I was witness to such a tragedy - on a cold Chicago night in December, while waiting for the bus, I was approached by a young woman asking for help, a few bucks. We got to talking and she said she had a happy childhood - a nice middle class childhood - a life full of dreams. And then her doing father died, a new man entered her mother's life and then started the abuse at night, while the mother looked the other way. Unable to bear it, she took to the streets! Her life now destroyed, a life of hopes and dreams gone!
Something like that could happen to those kids who lost their mother and father in this tragedy!

And what about those two kids who lost their lives? At that age, sports, full of dreams of the future - all gone! Where is the justice for them?
.
I blame religion and our movies - religion says God can only provide vengeance - will torture the criminal don't worry!
huh? The victims are crying about their lost daughter and the answer is the criminal will be punished?
how come God does nothing for the victims?
And of course what the victims are not told is how nice God will forgive this criminal if he repents!
.
Our movies do not like Justice - Justice is slow, non-violent - whereas vengeance is fast, quick and very, very violent
In movies like "Kill Bill" we see the victim suffer in the beginning and then we are entertained to a kill-fest - one by one the criminals are hunted down and killed! yep! done!
But did the victim get their loved ones back? Did they get their life back? Their hopes and dreams of a great future?
.
Please stop calling putting the criminal in jail or being punished as Justice being done
It is but vengeance, not Justice!