Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[popeye1945]

The concept of free will is great ignorance of the complexity of reality and its complex history, it is a tragedy, a roadblock to a greater humanity, it is ignorance enshrined.

Quite the opposite. Freewill acknowledges the complexity of reality A person who believes in freewill engages with other minds as minds, treating their apparent thoughts and choices as genuine thoughts and choices, explaining them in terms of emergent properties that minds possess. That way lies reciprocity and mutual respect.

The alternative is material causation. Treating other people's apparent thoughts and choices as being rigidly determined by material causes. If I believe that anything you say is caused (in the extreme case) by the fact that you ate cheese last night, then I'm not going to respect your views. That way lies inhumanity.

All organisms are reactionary creatures, humanity included. If this were no so, evolutionary adaptations would be quite impossible, and so life would have died out long ago, assuming it could arise under such circumstances in the first place. Belief in free will is an egocentric delusion that allows for the existence of sin, and a punishing legal system, not a higher understanding of the complexities of existence, and the fact the context defines. Life is different in its forms but not in its essence, you are related to every living thing on the planet. You are like all organisms, adapted to the ever-changing reality of the earth and the cosmos. For a behavior to be considered an independent action, it would need to be unmotivated, for that which is motivated is by definition a reaction to something. We cannot know that we have a choice between alternatives but this too would be a reaction to something--- basic cause and effect.

All the reactions of all organisms are caused by the greater reality, and in turn, those reactions become the cause to an ever-changing world and so this cyclical roundabout is existence. Present day neurology indicates that the mind prepares for a reaction a few seconds to ten seconds before the individual subject is aware of an intention. No life is one big family, once we were too arrogant to accept our relations with the family, and it is arrogance again that holds us back from seeing that we are governed by the larger reality. It is necessary to embrace this reality in order to increase one's compassion towards one's fellow humans and the rest of the family. Religion would need to find something to control the public with something besides the quilt of sin, and the legal system would need to rethink punishment. True, without free will, we still would need to control those who would do harm to others and society at large. Give up the eye for an eye, it was bad advice from a more ignorant time, and as Gandi stated, an eye for an eye, leaves a blinded humanity. Identify with life!

[Greg_M]

This a fascinating topic. Insects and animals may have a pre-programmed behavior.

Another thread talks about slavery and addiction.

I think that freedom in decision making is proportional to the amount of reasoning that is used. This is also related to wisdom. Perhaps the level of free-will is related to wisdom. People who believe in God as I do, connect free will with the perfect design of God.

Many systems such as a computer, a roadway, employment, a sport, have a design for a purpose. Within those systems we follow the rules and so we don't always exert completely free decision-making within those systems. So if one believes that God has a design, we follow what we believe is truth according the design. This decision is a form of free will but this also illustrates that we can only exercise free will with God's help. Again, referring back to the slavery of addiction as an example. So, this may be how people of faith view free will. I view it this way, but I also don't claim to have full understanding about it, but I definitely relate it to belief in God.

[Samana Johann]

This topic is about the February 2022 Philosophy Book of the Month,
*Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral* [link removed to be able to post]

When people make choices and we ask why, it strongly suggests that we believe there must be a reason for the choice made. It also suggests that we do not easily believe that the choice was simply made because the person wanted to make that specific choice without any reason at all. When we ask another person why, it opens a controversy because we believe we can make any choice we want. Most of us believe we have free will to do so. We should simply accept that the other person made the choice because they wanted it. That should be the end of the conversation; however, it seldom is. Why do we need a reason? Can’t we just accept that people make choices for no reason at all? After all, is that not the essence of free will? Free will does not require an explanation nor a reason, it means that the choices we make are free from any influences and are made without any reason. Yet we have a difficult time accepting that something is done for no reason at all.

(Location 131 of Kindle version)


Seemingly this is not an idea the author created all alone. Even Schopenhauer and Einstein had similar kind of thoughts.

Man does at all times only what he wills, and yet he does this necessarily. But this is because he already is what he wills.

                Schopenhauer - Chapter 5 of On the                  Freedom of the Will

A man can do as he will, but not will as he will.

             Albert Einstein - My View of the World               (1931)


What do all these sayings imply? Do we have free will, or not? Is it merely our inability to express the reason behind our actions in words, or do we just behave in a pre-planned, pre-determined manner, which is a result of our brain processes due to various reasons which are out of our control? Are we unable to will what we will, for real?

It all depends on one's will, good Sushan. And like with all kind of freedom, it depends on how much indebted, how much craving toward something one has. So freedom of will requires wisdom, as when not seeing "trough" the net of craving that binds, what ever "free" will would be defiled, doesn't lead to desired aim.

It's, coming under control of one's intent, is something that's required to train rightly. It's seldom that a good trainer appears in this world. As long as the misery of debts and limited feedom out of it, isn't seen, or thought to be impossible to overcome, there is no effort, no will, to seek out of it. So the primary condition for (free) will is meeting, seeing, suffering.

If not seen, one just feeds on of what comes along "from the past", according to long used tendency, inclination, debts.