Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

I'm thinking boxing, Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai or karate lessons. Best to do it before any bullying, though.

[Lagayascienza]

How about having the bully charged with assault. And then teach, or have your kid take lessons in, how to defend himself in future. Doing these two things would punish the bully, make the bully's parents rein in his bullying behaviour, and make it less likely that your kid will be bullied in future by this or any other bully.

[Hello Sailor]

I was assuming there would have been disciplinary action by the school which I was also assuming would be successful. Back to vengeance.True story when I was about 12 I flicked a bunch of mud balls all over our neibours house about 2 doors down using a piece of bamboo like a fishing rod.Proper punk kid.
When they found out they rang my mum and I was lured over there with a bucket of water and scrubber to clean up there mess, which I was prepared to do.
Instead while the parents watched one of their sons held my arms behind my back and the other punched me in the guts a few times.
I ran home got my 22 caibre air rifle and unleashed 20 odd rounds into their house.
For mine punishment not vengeance.Less escalation.
Ps it's only 4 pm here in New Zealand

[LuckyR]

I'm thinking boxing, Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai or karate lessons. Best to do it before any bullying, though.

I think we have a winner!

[LuckyR]

How about having the bully charged with assault. And then teach, or have your kid take lessons in, how to defend himself in future. Doing these two things would punish the bully, make the bully's parents rein in his bullying behaviour, and make it less likely that your kid will be bullied in future by this or any other bully.

Alas, the punch was unwitnessed and any appeal to the authorities will devolve into a he said, she said impasse. Also the punk kid has punk parents who will not rein in their kid.

Though teaching your kid to defend himself will likely lower his chance of being victimized a third time (he's already been victimized once, defence will occur on the second attack by the bully).

[Belinda]

The religious belief that God will forgive if one feels remorse and genuinely repents , makes the sinner whole again and ready to be a better person. Not every religious person is as cynical as you imply in your last sentence.

Repentance is about the Victim - not about the criminal - but these religions make it all about the criminal
Repentance is the first step, not the last - and here in these religions they make it the last, since he or she is forgiven
True Repentance says "I feel bad for what I did to the VICTIM, he or she is suffering/suffered because of what I did"
But the Repentance you talk about says "I feel bad for what I did, forgive me!" No mention of the victim, all about how he can be forgiven
.
And no Judge, in this case God, has the right to forgive! ONLY the victim has that right
So many cases have been dropped because the victims failed to press charges
No Judge or God, is going to help the criminal cheat his victims
.
True Forgiveness is EARNED, not Given
Only after the criminal has set things right, made amends will the victim gladly forgive him
Until the criminal does that, there can be no forgiveness
.
Many people make New Year's resolutions - do they not mean them? Of course they do
Many people have had heart attacks because of their lifestyle - once woken up in the hospital, realizing how close they were to dying, they hug their families and cry "I will start eating right, exercise, become a whole new man"
Do they not mean it? Of course they do! How many follow up? And how many go back to their old ways?
But following thru is not that easy, right?
Talk is cheap, it is the Action that counts
.
Repentance is the talk - making amends is the Action
As far as the victim is concerned, they do not care how the criminal feels, all they care about is their loss being made up
Madoff's victims want their money back - they care not a hoot how Madoff feels
We have so many seniors being robbed off their life savings by criminals - how would they feel knowing God has forgiven these criminals while they do without food and desperately needed medicine?
.
The problem for Christianity & Islam is the making amends part
How does one make amends after death - only by coming back - Reincarnation
But instead of asking God to give them a 2nd chance, set things right by the victim, these religions say just cry and beg
And nice God will forgive, help you cheat your victims
It won't work
The lack of morals, values is sickening
The frightening silence of so many is even more sickening

Repentance is motivated by remorse and a sense of fairness. Religions are for preventing people damaging each other, so religions contain moral codes. If a bully gets to the moral stage of asking 'God' to give them another chance, then that is at least better than if they are content to remain a bully.

It's impossible to "make amends " for many damages. I agree that reparations should be made whenever possible. There is an ongoing case about the latter in the UK where the large corporation called The Post Office behaved not only cruelly but also illegally towards many of its employees.Many of the employees will never get their lives back on track, and some are dead before they can ever have any sort of recompense.

Islam is a major religion which was founded by an Arab trader called Muhammad. Arabia at that time had a system of justice we call vendetta, which is founded on revenge. Vendetta is an inefficient justice system. Muhammad introduced a moral code commanded by the almighty god, which revolutionised the administration of justice in Arabia.

Judaism was founded by Moses who brought the Ten Commandments from the almighty god, and so Moses enabled his people to have a system of justice better than revenge between warring tribes.

Jesus was a Jew who introduced a system of justice better than that of the Romans who had at that time a brutal army of occupation in Jesus' country , Palestine. The system of justice introduced by Jesus became Christianity.

All societies are held together by laws. Sometimes the religious laws and the secular laws fit together well enough. When the religion and/or the secular law cause distress then in a democracy the people vote to change the religious or secular law whichever applies. In no case is revenge of any use whatsoever.

[Pattern-chaser]

I'd consider vengeance an excuse for cruelty

Its a choice of vengeance or forgiveness.
Id consider not forgiving a bit cruel. Just me

Or perhaps better put it would be kind to not seek revenge

Exactly. Vengeance is a little like blame. First, you decide to hurt or harm someone, because they 'deserve' it. Then you fabricate a 'reason' why this is 'justified'. Then you hurt them. Vengeance achieves nothing.

But that doesn't mean that the only option left is passive-and-accepting pacifism. No, if someone has done significant harm, the rest of us need protecting from any further harm they may do, but haven't yet. The future can still be changed, unlike the past. So robust action is often justified and appropriate. It has a worthwhile purpose to achieve.

In contrast, vengeance seals in violent tit-for-tat feuds, and causes others to become more entrenched in their own (vengeful?) views. Violence breeds more violence...

[Pattern-chaser]

True Forgiveness is EARNED, not Given

I disagree. Forgiveness comes freely, if it comes at all, from those who have been harmed. And it is given, without condition, or it is not forgiveness, it's something else.

[Hello Sailor]

So your kid goes to school one day He's had good martial arts training. Good kid doesn't show off it's just for defense. The bully picks a fight but gets a hiding in front of other kids, humiliated. Goes home to his abusive father who mocks him a little for being a *****. This kid has a nasty streak in him and full of vengeance sticks a knife in your kids back the next day....
What do you do?
How do you feel about vengeance?

[Pattern-chaser]

So your kid goes to school one day He's had good martial arts training. Good kid doesn't show off it's just for defense. The bully picks a fight but gets a hiding in front of other kids, humiliated. Goes home to his abusive father who mocks him a little for being a *****. This kid has a nasty streak in him and full of vengeance sticks a knife in your kids back the next day....
What do you do?
How do you feel about vengeance?

Vengeance is pointless — your boy is still dead. But a change, perhaps to our law(s), might stop the same thing happening in the future? Protection and prevention achieve something; vengeance achieves nothing.

[Hello Sailor]

I'll probably join up.
Hypothesis What if pure consciousness is nothing.
From which arises anything, nothing being pure possibility. Not being able to know itself as nothing it creates something to relate to.
Would this make us a conscious expression of nothing.

[Sculptor1]

A dish best served cold?

[Samana Johann]

'He insulted me,
hit me,
beat me,
robbed me'
— for those who brood on this,
hostility isn't stilled.

'He insulted me,
hit me,
beat me,
robbed me' —
for those who don't brood on this,
hostility is stilled.

Hostilities aren't stilled
through hostility,
regardless.
Hostilities are stilled
through non-hostility:
this, an unending truth.

Unlike those who don't realize
that we're here on the verge
of perishing,
those who do:
their quarrels are stilled.

[Samana Johann]

[The following topic is featured as a leadup to the May philosophy book of the month discussion of Holding Fire.]

If you haven't already, check out this blog post I made: Vengeance, Payback, Revenge [link removed to be able to post]

What do you think? How do you dissuade people from vengeance? What arguments do you have against vengeance? What do you see as the flaws in the philosophy of an eye for an eye? How can we convince people not to make policy choices based on vengeance?

Like anybody, I may succumb to emotions in the heat of the moment (which is almost always regrettable), but I generally do not support vengeance and instead choose compassion. But I want to know what arguments you have against vengeance.

And some other sets to get not caught in what harms oneself and others, doesn't lead to peace, good Brahman Eckhart,

“There are these ten ways of subduing hatred. Which ten?

[1] “Thinking, 'He has done me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[2] “Thinking, 'He is doing me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[3] “Thinking, 'He is going to do me harm. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[4] “Thinking, 'He has done harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[5] “Thinking, 'He is doing harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[6] “Thinking, 'He is going to do harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[7] “Thinking, 'He has aided people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[8] “Thinking, 'He is aiding people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[9] “Thinking, 'He is going to aid people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?' one subdues hatred.

[10] “One does not get worked up over impossibilities.

“These are ten ways of subduing hatred.”

And an older topic on the matter with readings for deeper understanding: Wisdom over Justice.

Wishing much ight joy and with it re(a)l-ease.

[LuckyR]

I'd consider vengeance an excuse for cruelty

Its a choice of vengeance or forgiveness.
Id consider not forgiving a bit cruel. Just me

Or perhaps better put it would be kind to not seek revenge

Exactly. Vengeance is a little like blame. First, you decide to hurt or harm someone, because they 'deserve' it. Then you fabricate a 'reason' why this is 'justified'. Then you hurt them. Vengeance achieves nothing.

But that doesn't mean that the only option left is passive-and-accepting pacifism. No, if someone has done significant harm, the rest of us need protecting from any further harm they may do, but haven't yet. The future can still be changed, unlike the past. So robust action is often justified and appropriate. It has a worthwhile purpose to achieve.

In contrast, vengeance seals in violent tit-for-tat feuds, and causes others to become more entrenched in their own (vengeful?) views. Violence breeds more violence...

Well I agree with your red statement. If you don't want to label my "robust action" as "vengeance", that's fine with me. Most do, though.