Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Sculptor1]

Words in defence of more words. Please explain how your words resolve the Philosophical Zombie problem.

And as for the PZP..

There is no "problem". Any attempt to furnish a "solution" would create a solution looking for a problem.
The problem, where there is one, is when a hypotetical is created, the creator already has an axe to grind , and the fake scenario (which is the hypothetical) is designed to engineer exactly the idea intended to promote.

Boil it down. There are no zombies; philosophical or other wise.
Human consciousness is what it is. It is not "explained" by inventing a "soul", or "spirit"; it has to be inderstood from the evidence we have, and can seek by investigations. I'm not sure PZs are a helpful reflection except to reveal the underlying assumptions of those that try to answer the problem. This gets us no further in out understanding.

[value]

Free money? South Africa floats universal basic income for all
https://www.theguardian.com/world/artic ... me-for-all

South Africa is highly likely to implement a form of universal basic income in the next few years, with the ruling ANC party committing to finalize a policy within two years of taking power. While details are still being debated, the goal is to provide a monthly grant sufficient for all citizens to live above the poverty line and meet basic needs.

A universal basic income providing a sufficient standard of living for all of South Africa's nearly 60 million citizens could reduce rampant crime levels - which reached over 1.6 million reported cases in 2022 - to just a fraction of current numbers, as people's basic needs are met and they are empowered to adapt their ways towards securing higher cultural interests defined by a society free from deprivation.

A prospect of an actual obliteration of crime, in Africa.

[value]

Daniel Hart
f65d075583eaf91784dbdcb4c8fc6e35.jpeg (15.3 KiB) Viewed 860 times

Daniel Hart, an independent scholar and historian based in Australia who studies and publishes online collections of key texts from the “Great Books” of Western philosophy and political thought through his project Online Library of Liberty (OLL), is walking across Australia to promote Universal Basic Income (UBI).

http://davidmhart.com/

Online Library of Liberty (OLL): http://davidmhart.com/liberty/ClassicalLiberalism/CLT-lecture/HistoryCL.html

He recently was swept away in a river and needed to be rescued.

Daniel was swept out to sea part way through a 4,500km walk to promote a universal basic income in Australia
“The goal of Mr Hart’s walk is to encourage people to consider a basic income for all Australians.

He described it as regular, unconditional weekly payments to cover an individual’s basic needs.

It is something he believes could be possible by “taxing corporations correctly”.

“Right now, they’re taxed legally, but not ethically, in my opinion,” he said.

He says he hopes by hearing his story, people will seek out more information, find out what it is, and make up their own minds about it.”
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-08/ ... /103880424

[value]

Philippe Van Parijs
philippe-van-parijs-1-224x290.png (53.22 KiB) Viewed 857 times

Belgian philosophy professor Philippe Van Parijs is founder of the Basic Income European Network (BIEN): https://basicincome.org/

https://uclouvain.be/fr/chercher/hoover ... arijs.html

His book "Le revenu de base inconditionnel" that he wrote with professor of political science Yannick Vanderborght has received considerable acclaim. It won the 2019-2020 Best Economics Book Award from the French Association of Economic Sciences.

In France, the concept of UBI entered the political mainstream during the 2017 presidential campaign. Benoît Hamon, the Socialist Party candidate, made UBI a central part of his platform.

Several pilot programs and studies have been inspired by the theoretical groundwork laid by Van Parijs and his colleagues. For instance, the Denver Basic Income Project in the United States has released promising initial findings from its first year of implementation, showing positive impacts on recipients' well-being and financial stability.

Van Parijs and the Basic Income Earth Network (BIEN) have been instrumental in promoting UBI on a global scale.

[value]

A universal basic income providing a sufficient standard of living for all of South Africa's nearly 60 million citizens could reduce rampant crime levels - which reached over 1.6 million reported cases in 2022 - to just a fraction of current numbers, as people's basic needs are met and they are empowered to adapt their ways towards securing higher cultural interests defined by a society free from deprivation.

A prospect of an actual obliteration of crime, in Africa.

These 'higher cultural interests' concern philosophical interests, not scientific ones, in my opinion.

Does a path of philosophy naturally align with the moral good?

Aristotle would have predicted it with his concept eudaimonia, which is a state of ‘philosophical contemplation’ with as a result ‘the highest human virtue’, namely, alignment with the moral good.

[Lagayscienza]

Words in defence of more words. Please explain how your words resolve the Philosophical Zombie problem.

And as for the PZP..

There is no "problem". Any attempt to furnish a "solution" would create a solution looking for a problem.
The problem, where there is one, is when a hypotetical is created, the creator already has an axe to grind , and the fake scenario (which is the hypothetical) is designed to engineer exactly the idea intended to promote.

Boil it down. There are no zombies; philosophical or other wise.
Human consciousness is what it is. It is not "explained" by inventing a "soul", or "spirit"; it has to be inderstood from the evidence we have, and can seek by investigations. I'm not sure PZs are a helpful reflection except to reveal the underlying assumptions of those that try to answer the problem. This gets us no further in out understanding.

Yup. There is no problem in respect of PZ's, or with brains in vats, or Mary who has never seen red in her black, white room, or with Chinese Rooms, etc. They are a just side-shows. Nothing spooky to see there. The only thing such thought experiments point to is the need for more scientific research.

[Sy Borg]

As AI advances and replaces human jobs, philosophy may become humanity's primary occupation, driven by the need to find meaning and purpose in life and because as long as AI is not alive it is philosophy that drives AI. Universal Basic Income (UBI) could empower individuals to pursue philosophy, leading to a flourishing of intellectual progress which has an impact on all other areas of humanity, including science. The intellectual progress enabled by the AI revolution and UBI could be viewed as a higher purpose of humanity, ultimately serving a greater good.

What is your opinion on the AI revolution and its potential impact on the field of philosophy?

Thought I might revisit this. It's a rainy Saturday morning, so no walking yet.

This area moves so fast, and much has happened since the OP over a year ago. Jut putting aside the UBI idea for a moment (and the coercive power of those holding the purse strings) I'm like to chat about the sentience aspect - especially what humans minds can do that AI can't. It comes down to function. Humans are the actors, and AI an extra appendage or sorts, an addition.

It seems that AI has no wants or preferences. However, even if it did, this would be akin to a draft horse a couple of centuries ago having preferences. Even if they are present, humans logically care most about their own preferences.

Still, AI is taking over, in a sense. Not because it intends or wants to, since it appears that I doesn't have those capacities. The functional situation is another matter; AI does a lot of things more economically than humans, and humans are rapidly being replaced in industry by smart machines.

So it's easy to see how ever more people will rely on welfare, which may transition to UBI. In a sense, people are already being paid (by free access to content) by ostensibly viewing ads. As mentioned in the OP, regular people are providing a service, their presence helping to train AIs. It's hard to see people being formally paid to be studied remotely, only for specific research projects.

I think there will be growing underground economies too, involving barter and minor financial transactions, eg. paying a local tradesperson for repairs work.

[value]

Thought I might revisit this. It's a rainy Saturday morning, so no walking yet.

I must say I love your passionate replies to topics, with evident notion and awareness of events on a truly global scale. I can imagine that it does make a difference for many users, perhaps many of whom are just 'lurking' and reading the posts. I once mentioned it before, but your role as admin (with the help of several moderators) does apear to define the forum.

I've looked at most of the online philosophy forums, over the years. This one is the most civilised one I've come across, which is why I'm still here. Nothing is perfect, but you can have worthwhile conversations here, and maybe even learn something. I have. Just the once, you understand...!

You would have to thank the admins for that and in specific Greta/Sy Borg. I've noticed her passionate comments in topics related to the meaning of life and in topics in which people might be struggling with the consideration of suicide.

When I shortly became an administrator to recover a domain expiration in January 2021, I noticed that quite an effort is made to administrate the forum, meanwhile with almost no conflicts about moderation and almost all users feeling welcome. It seems to be a great accomplishment that deserves gratitude from the users.

Greta/Sy Borg mentioned in a PM that she was provided with the admin role apparently randomly at some point in time. She is the only admin next to the founder. It seems that it has been a matter of great luck with regard the quality of forum administration in the past 10+ years!

On topic:

This area moves so fast, and much has happened since the OP over a year ago. Jut putting aside the UBI idea for a moment (and the coercive power of those holding the purse strings) I'm like to chat about the sentience aspect - especially what humans minds can do that AI can't. It comes down to function. Humans are the actors, and AI an extra appendage or sorts, an addition.

It seems that AI has no wants or preferences. However, even if it did, this would be akin to a draft horse a couple of centuries ago having preferences. Even if they are present, humans logically care most about their own preferences.

Still, AI is taking over, in a sense. Not because it intends or wants to, since it appears that I doesn't have those capacities. The functional situation is another matter; AI does a lot of things more economically than humans, and humans are rapidly being replaced in industry by smart machines.

I would share your vision, but it is important to consider the rapid advancement of "Organoid Intelligence" or OI that uses biological computing hardware or 'life tissue'. This does change the situation, especially when considering that nobody today knows how AI actually works.

The performance of AI is an actual mystery that amazes even the specialists that create it.

A Google Deepmind engineer mentioned the following:

"LLM AI models are more like plants or lab-grown tissue than software. Humans build scaffolding, add data, and kick off the training process. After that, the model grows and evolves on its own. After millions of iterations of training the model to predict words to complete sentences and answer questions, it begins to respond with complex, often very human-sounding answers."

His concluding reflection on how AI works: “This bizarre and arcane process somehow works incredibly well,” said Neel Nanda, a research engineer at Google Deepmind.

The satus quo of science today is: "scientists are going to try to understand how AI works", apparently "against the odds".

Scientists are trying to unravel the mystery behind modern AI
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/3627 ... uroscience

With Organoid Intelligence (OI) this situation would become even more mysterious, since it would involve actual life that fundamentally underlays it, potentially introducing a moral component.

So it's easy to see how ever more people will rely on welfare, which may transition to UBI. In a sense, people are already being paid (by free access to content) by ostensibly viewing ads. As mentioned in the OP, regular people are providing a service, their presence helping to train AIs. It's hard to see people being formally paid to be studied remotely, only for specific research projects.

I think there will be growing underground economies too, involving barter and minor financial transactions, eg. paying a local tradesperson for repairs work.

Today's societal environment is based on a fundamental demand for human labor. That that situation doesn't align with the future might already be visible in today's children and youth who are facing increasing difficulty to find purpose and meaning at work and school.

The ‘disconnected youth’ movement is growing as more Gen Zers struggle to find purpose at school and work
https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-d ... &r=US&IR=T

When children and youth growing up today look 20-30 years into the future, they face a situation in which the meaning of work is likely to be non-existent, therefore school and work simply aren’t meaningful for them today.

Giving these future generations a basic security to ‘play around’ through a UBI basic income might enable them to philosophically innovate to discover new ways to find purpose and meaning in life in a world in which human labor, both physical and knowledgeworker labor, is fundamentally obsolete. It might enable them to create visions for the 20-30 year future today, as past generations have been able to when growing up in an environment that fundamentally demanded their labor.

Besides securing the future generation through UBI to protect them from a fundamental outlook on a world in which work has no meaning, at question remains: what will happen when OI becomes sentient AI. Not in 10 years time, but in a few years from now? What effect would the prospect of Organoid Intelligence have on children and youth growing up today? This might be an important question as well.

[Sy Borg]

You would have to thank the admins for that and in specific Greta/Sy Borg. I've noticed her passionate comments in topics related to the meaning of life and in topics in which people might be struggling with the consideration of suicide.

When I shortly became an administrator to recover a domain expiration in January 2021, I noticed that quite an effort is made to administrate the forum, meanwhile with almost no conflicts about moderation and almost all users feeling welcome. It seems to be a great accomplishment that deserves gratitude from the users.

Greta/Sy Borg mentioned in a PM that she was provided with the admin role apparently randomly at some point in time. She is the only admin next to the founder. It seems that it has been a matter of great luck with regard the quality of forum administration in the past 10+ years!

Far too nice, because I honestly can be a bit of a turd, but thanks much anyway :)

I enjoy people like you and other civilised members. As Socrates said: "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser". Much rather simply chat about life, the universe and everything than to get into personal guff.

This area moves so fast, and much has happened since the OP over a year ago. Just putting aside the UBI idea for a moment (and the coercive power of those holding the purse strings) I'd like to chat about the sentience aspect - especially what humans minds can do that AI can't. It comes down to function. Humans are the actors, and AI an extra appendage or sorts, an addition.

It seems that AI has no wants or preferences. However, even if it did, this would be akin to a draft horse a couple of centuries ago having preferences. Even if they are present, humans logically care most about their own preferences.

Still, AI is taking over, in a sense. Not because it intends or wants to, since it appears that it doesn't have those capacities. The functional situation is another matter; AI does a lot of things more economically than humans, and humans are rapidly being replaced in industry by smart machines.

I would share your vision, but it is important to consider the rapid advancement of "Organoid Intelligence" or OI that uses biological computing hardware or 'life tissue'. This does change the situation, especially when considering that nobody today knows how AI actually works.

Interesting. haven't heard that term before. That looks like a type of cyborgism to me. The more I think about it, if I'm to pick a winner between AI, humans and cyborgs, I'm thinking that the latter wins easily - combined machine capabilities and biological/human drives. Good for them, I say :)

The performance of AI is an actual mystery that amazes even the specialists that create it.

A Google Deepmind engineer mentioned the following:

"LLM AI models are more like plants or lab-grown tissue than software. Humans build scaffolding, add data, and kick off the training process. After that, the model grows and evolves on its own. After millions of iterations of training the model to predict words to complete sentences and answer questions, it begins to respond with complex, often very human-sounding answers."

His concluding reflection on how AI works: “This bizarre and arcane process somehow works incredibly well,” said Neel Nanda, a research engineer at Google Deepmind.

The satus quo of science today is: "scientists are going to try to understand how AI works", apparently "against the odds".

Scientists are trying to unravel the mystery behind modern AI
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/3627 ... uroscience

With Organoid Intelligence (OI) this situation would become even more mysterious, since it would involve actual life that fundamentally underlays it, potentially introducing a moral component.

I hope those organoids see the folly of Google's attempts to erase Europeans from history as happened with Gemini. Search for a "white thief" and you get a plethora of images. Search for a thief of any other ethnicity, and it simply refuses. Search for "happy family" and they are never white. Ask for it to be white and Gemini said no. Imagine the outcry if the situation was reversed!

After a two decades long love affair, I no longer trust Google or their AI any more. I know thy are skewing search results too. They seem to be increasingly placing more priority on politics and profit than objectivity.

So it's easy to see how ever more people will rely on welfare, which may transition to UBI. In a sense, people are already being paid (by free access to content) by ostensibly viewing ads. As mentioned in the OP, regular people are providing a service, their presence helping to train AIs. It's hard to see people being formally paid to be studied remotely, only for specific research projects.

I think there will be growing underground economies too, involving barter and minor financial transactions, eg. paying a local tradesperson for repairs work.

Today's societal environment is based on a fundamental demand for human labor. That that situation doesn't align with the future might already be visible in today's children and youth who are facing increasing difficulty to find purpose and meaning at work and school.

The ‘disconnected youth’ movement is growing as more Gen Zers struggle to find purpose at school and work
https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-d ... &r=US&IR=T

When children and youth growing up today look 20-30 years into the future, they face a situation in which the meaning of work is likely to be non-existent, therefore school and work simply aren’t meaningful for them today.

Giving these future generations a basic security to ‘play around’ through a UBI basic income might enable them to philosophically innovate to discover new ways to find purpose and meaning in life in a world in which human labor, both physical and knowledgeworker labor, is fundamentally obsolete. It might enable them to create visions for the 20-30 year future today, as past generations have been able to when growing up in an environment that fundamentally demanded their labor.

Besides securing the future generation through UBI to protect them from a fundamental outlook on a world in which work has no meaning, at question remains: what will happen when OI becomes sentient AI. Not in 10 years time, but in a few years from now? What effect would the prospect of Organoid Intelligence have on children and youth growing up today? This might be an important question as well.

True, people will need other values. Meanwhile, though, the UBI represents total governmental control. I don't trust them any more either.

If OI becomes sentient, then we will no longer be at the top of the pecking order, hopefully in a less dramatic way than it happened trilobites and dinosaurs. Still, it makes sense that we'd upgrade. While most people strike me as fairly decent and kind, there's a pretty fair percentage of psychopathic ratbags that need to be weeded out to make a more functional world.

I'm not talking about billionaires either - they are usually just smart people who ruthlessly leveraged their potential, which is what most dominant animals have to do to hold their position in the group. No, I'm talking about the truly any-social, eg. major criminal gangs in Mexico, and those who used to terrorises El Salvdorians.

[Lagayscienza]

Bring it on. The advent of cyborgism I mean. Some of us are in dire need of spare parts already. Imagine if we could get a whole new kit - knees, back, liver, heart, etc - artifical stuff that would last indefinitely. I imagine that the brain would be the most difficult bit to replace - without losing our mind/individuality, I mean. It's hard to see how the brain could be replaced with a similar sized artificial thing that would fit in our skulls. And it would have to have every individual synthetc neuron in the right configuration so that all our memories, personality, preferences etc. remained intact. Probably simpler to just upload if that ever becomes possible. Not sure I'd want to, though. Immortality seems like an awful long time.