Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Lagayascienza]

Yes. We can't ban trucks. But we can restrict their movement in places where people congregate. That has been done in Australia after a couple of attacks where vehicles were used. Bollards and traffic control devices have been placed in squares and walkways so vehicles are either excluded or, in the case of delivery vehicles, can only travel very slowly in tightly constrained paths. Things can be done to limit harm.

[LuckyR]

Yes. We can't ban trucks. But we can restrict their movement in places where people congregate. That has been done in Australia after a couple of attacks where vehicles were used. Bollards and traffic control devices have been placed in squares and walkways so vehicles are either excluded or, in the case of delivery vehicles, can only travel very slowly in tightly constrained paths. Things can be done to limit harm.

Exactly. The fact of the matter is, terrorist acts are by design much more newsworthy than the numbers of those killed would otherwise dictate. That's why the seat-of-the-pants gauge of their impact on "safety" is exaggerated. Thus while debating their real or imagined danger is fodder for politicians (who are in the business of garnering public support), they have négligeable influence on Real People.

[Sy Borg]

Oh yeah, thanks. Trucks and SUVs - the other gun replacements.

If one requires another person or person's dead in a public place, there aren't a lot of options. Guns, trucks, knives. Basically, projectiles, clubs and slashers, as has always been the case. I do remember having a small key chain object confiscated by airport security - it had a knife, a nail file and bottle opener/screwdriver. The knife has a rounded tip and the blade was so blunt and flimsy that I remember using it on a camping trip to cut an orange and I had such a devil of a time with it that I ended up just peeling it with my teeth and hands. Yet, this object was deemed a deadly weapon while multiple people on that plane could have inflicted more damage with their fists than I could with my useful keychain doodad. If you tried to stab with it, it would have folded back and abraded your finger.

Yet AK-47s in US neighbourhoods are okay ...

It sets up a dynamic not miles from M.A.D. Americans need to be extra careful not to enter civil war . With all those weapons, they could decimate themselves and hand global leadership to China on a platter. Hence Russian programs that use media to push American divisions.

[Pattern-chaser]

It sets up a dynamic not miles from M.A.D. Americans need to be extra careful not to enter civil war . With all those weapons, they could decimate themselves and hand global leadership to China on a platter. Hence Russian programs that use media to push American divisions.

Well, the 'once and future king' of the USA seems to favour civil war, judging by the attempted coup at the Capitol building. Perhaps your prediction will soon see the light of day...? I rather hope not.

[Sy Borg]

It sets up a dynamic not miles from M.A.D. Americans need to be extra careful not to enter civil war . With all those weapons, they could decimate themselves and hand global leadership to China on a platter. Hence Russian programs that use media to push American divisions.

Well, the 'once and future king' of the USA seems to favour civil war, judging by the attempted coup at the Capitol building. Perhaps your prediction will soon see the light of day...? I rather hope not.

Predictions are like bum holes; we all have them. I think of it as considering the possibilities, perhaps a risk management reflex from years of considering risks in some of my old jobs.

I don't think democracy as we know it will last. All systems degrade and change, including systems we might like. Actually, I think democracy is gone and we haven't noticed. We are a oligarchy, ruled by monolithic corporations and organisations.

Why do you think governments persist with mass immigration when they know it will push locals out of their homes and jobs? Because some serious people have invested in property. Because big businesses want more customers. Because it boosts the GDP. (While mass immigration boosts GDP, in excess it reduces GDP per capita, but there is agreement with the media to largely only take total GDP seriously). Because that boost covers for governmental inefficiencies.

However, if you raise these points against mass immigration you are deemed a "far right" racist and xenophobe. Now consider the intersection of mass immigration, including many illegals in the US, mass ownership of lethal weapons, and deep political divisions ...

Trump will never be king and he'd be a fool to seek it. Personally, I don't think he ever says something to communicate information, it's always to elicit the reaction he wants. Trying to bring to heel a feisty nation armed to the teeth is a fool's errand, a recipe for endless insurrection. The Yanks were already an ornery bunch, and now they have learned from the Vietnamese and the Arabs how rebels embedded in civilian populations can operate more-or-less indefinitely. It would turn any attempt at authoritarian rule into a policy quagmire, with the "corporaments" "let's be realistic, that's what they are now) always having to put out spot fires, unable to move forward.

[Pattern-chaser]

It sets up a dynamic not miles from M.A.D. Americans need to be extra careful not to enter civil war . With all those weapons, they could decimate themselves and hand global leadership to China on a platter. Hence Russian programs that use media to push American divisions.

Well, the 'once and future king' of the USA seems to favour civil war, judging by the attempted coup at the Capitol building. Perhaps your prediction will soon see the light of day...? I rather hope not.

Predictions are like bum holes; we all have them. I think of it as considering the possibilities, perhaps a risk management reflex from years of considering risks in some of my old jobs.

I don't think democracy as we know it will last. All systems degrade and change, including systems we might like. Actually, I think democracy is gone and we haven't noticed. We are an oligarchy, ruled by monolithic corporations and organisations.

Or maybe a 𝕡𝕝𝕦𝕥𝕠𝕔𝕣𝕒𝕔𝕪? Isn't that the core of it?

Why do you think governments persist with mass immigration when they know it will push locals out of their homes and jobs? Because some serious people have invested in property. Because big businesses want more customers. Because it boosts the GDP. (While mass immigration boosts GDP, in excess it reduces GDP per capita, but there is agreement with the media to largely only take total GDP seriously). Because that boost covers for governmental inefficiencies.

However, if you raise these points against mass immigration you are deemed a "far right" racist and xenophobe. Now consider the intersection of mass immigration, including many illegals in the US, mass ownership of lethal weapons, and deep political divisions ...

Immigration is an issue that is routinely and deliberately misunderstood. Extremists use it to wind up their supporters, but the simple truth is that many/most nations need immigration, within limits. Too much is bad; too little is bad. This is a Goldilocks thing, where there is a middle position that is 'just right', and that's the desirable bit, the bit that we aim for. The rest is just propaganda, IMO.

[Mo_reese]

I don't think democracy as we know it will last. All systems degrade and change, including systems we might like. Actually, I think democracy is gone and we haven't noticed. We are a oligarchy, ruled by monolithic corporations and organisations.

In the US, other than the fact that some people get to vote, there is nothing democratic about the government. Oligarchy, plutocracy, or corptocracy, whatever. Some get to vote, not everyone, but who they get to vote on is highly controlled. The Dem party is currently suing a number of states, attempting to keep third parties off the ballot. They will lose but their goal is to financially break the third parties. Gerrymandering negates many peoples' votes. On and on. Once elected politicians ignore their constituents and cater to their financial donors. Foreign countries can and do pay money to politicians to influence their votes. As capitalism gets less and less competitive, as the power becomes more centralized, the less and less democracy we have. Democracy means regulations and corporations and the mega-wealth hate regulations. While the two political parties argue over abortion and immigration they totally agree on funding wars, funding defense and give the corporations and mega-wealthy tax brakes and subsidies. I see no going back. Fascism is marching in.

Trump will never be king and he'd be a fool to seek it. Personally, I don't think he ever says something to communicate information, it's always to elicit the reaction he wants. Trying to bring to heel a feisty nation armed to the teeth is a fool's errand, a recipe for endless insurrection. The Yanks were already an ornery bunch, and now they have learned from the Vietnamese and the Arabs how rebels embedded in civilian populations can operate more-or-less indefinitely. It would turn any attempt at authoritarian rule into a policy quagmire, with the "corporaments" "let's be realistic, that's what they are now) always having to put out spot fires, unable to move forward.

With respect, I do disagree with you here. First of all Trump is a fool, but a very successful fool. He seeks the total control of a dictator. I see no trouble with that happening. Those that back him are the ones that are armed to the teeth and they will follow him off a cliff. Trump is following Hitler's footsteps. He surrounds himself with sociopaths and psychopaths. They will convince their followers that immigrants are the problem and must be eliminated. Those that speak out against the dictator will be dealt with harshly. Not only will the dictator have skinhead and proud-boy groups to use, the local police have been militarized and already side with the Right Wing. The only possible obstacles could be the CIA, NSA, FBI, etc. and military.

[Sy Borg]

Given that the world is moving ever more onto a war footing, it's not surprise that freedoms are going away. Freedoms were also curtained in Europe, before and during WWII.

The surprise for me was how quickly corporations have effectively become arms of government, and corporations are obviously non-democratic in nature. I expected it, but the pace of change is faster than I imagined. Wheels turned quietly like the media distracted me with a dozen other issues, and now there is fundamental control by corporations at the government and judicial levels.

Meanwhile, arms companies fund the NRA, and the political and economic power of arms suppliers is a significant impediment to any meaningful gun control in the US.

[Lagayascienza]

It is very worrying to see the weakening of the separation of powers and the swing towards another Trump presidency in the US. Also of concern is the swing towards the hard-right across Europe and elsewhere. All this is occurring against the back-drop of growing corporate power, increasing inequality, and the growth of AI. And, in the US, there is an aggrieved and deluded civilian population armed to the teeth with lethal weapons.

Trump has already stacked the Supreme Court in his favor and, if he gets back in with a majority in both houses, his brown-shirt thugs will be allowed to run riot and he’ll attempt to continue beyond the second term allowed by the Constitution. He’ll promote gerrymandering in the states so that he will have two thirds of Congress who will vote for a change to the Constitution, and three-fourths will who will ratify the change, to allow him to rule indefinitely. Only when he is securely in power and backed by the wealthiest will he take the guns off the populace so that there can be no popular uprising against him. The NRA and the gun manufacturers will be steered towards production for the military and state security forces.

I fear that this is how democracy will end in the United Sates. And, if that happens, a weakening of NATO and the possible geopolitical upheavals are too horrible to contemplate.

[Pattern-chaser]

Given that the world is moving ever more onto a war footing, it's not surprise that freedoms are going away.

Yes, and of course climate change is accelerating this, as resources become scarcer, and some lands become uninhabitable.

The surprise for me was how quickly corporations have effectively become arms of government, and corporations are obviously non-democratic in nature.

The surprise for me was how quickly governments have been absorbed into arms of corporations. Remember the banking crisis of the late 2000s? The POTUS at the time (Obama?) said to the banks that it was their problem, and they should pay the costs. The banks said, "Er, no." And that was that.

From then on, the rule of the big corporations became clear and open.

[Mo_reese]

It is very worrying to see the weakening of the separation of powers and the swing towards another Trump presidency in the US. Also of concern is the swing towards the hard-right across Europe and elsewhere. All this is occurring against the back-drop of growing corporate power, increasing inequality, and the growth of AI. And, in the US, there is an aggrieved and deluded civilian population armed to the teeth with lethal weapons.

Trump has already stacked the Supreme Court in his favor and, if he gets back in with a majority in both houses, his brown-shirt thugs will be allowed to run riot and he’ll attempt to continue beyond the second term allowed by the Constitution. He’ll promote gerrymandering in the states so that he will have two thirds of Congress who will vote for a change to the Constitution, and three-fourths will who will ratify the change, to allow him to rule indefinitely. Only when he is securely in power and backed by the wealthiest will he take the guns off the populace so that there can be no popular uprising against him. The NRA and the gun manufacturers will be steered towards production for the military and state security forces.

I fear that this is how democracy will end in the United Sates. And, if that happens, a weakening of NATO and the possible geopolitical upheavals are too horrible to contemplate.

Sadly I think you are correct. Trump is a buffoon but so was Hitler. I see the rise in power of Trump as not too different than Hitler. Trump will surround himself with sociopaths and psychopaths. The proud boys will be the Brown Shirts that will cause chaos until the dictator decides he has control of the country via the SS or CIA-FBI/military. Then the Brown Shirts will be harshly dealt with and no one will be allowed private weapons.
The immigrants will be targeted as the cause of all the problems and dealt with harshly. Then they will come for the activists, intellectuals and academics. The big corporations and billionaires will be completely supportive. I have always been curious why this didn't happen in the US in the 1930's. I think there might be a chance that those really in power now may believe that they might not be able to control Trump and therefore take action to limit his powers. They seem to be doing very well under a puppet like Biden.

[Pattern-chaser]

Sadly I think you are correct. Trump is a buffoon but so was Hitler. I see the rise in power of Trump as not too different than Hitler. Trump will surround himself with sociopaths and psychopaths. The proud boys will be the Brown Shirts that will cause chaos until the dictator decides he has control of the country via the SS or CIA-FBI/military. Then the Brown Shirts will be harshly dealt with and no one will be allowed private weapons.
The immigrants will be targeted as the cause of all the problems and dealt with harshly. Then they will come for the activists, intellectuals and academics. The big corporations and billionaires will be completely supportive. I have always been curious why this didn't happen in the US in the 1930's. I think there might be a chance that those really in power now may believe that they might not be able to control Trump and therefore take action to limit his powers. They seem to be doing very well under a puppet like Biden.

I think the big corporations, and the billionaires that own and control them, are the driving forces here?