Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Mo_reese]

Bush, Cheney, H. Clinton and Biden all told us that Iraq had WMD and we needed to destroy their country. While there were many that cried out that “the emperor has no clothes” most Americans dutifully went along having been brought up to blindly trust authority. Trust your teachers, coaches, scout leaders, religious leaders, the media and of all things political leaders. And after decades of betrayals by some in authority, most people still are not skeptical. Skeptics are considered trouble makers.

Phil Donahue had a very popular show on MSNBC but when he allowed guests on his show that were skeptical about the government's story re. WMD, he was fired. The media figured out that they had to go along with the government story to survive. The New York Times received an award for their job of misinformation with re. WMD. The Director of the CIA also got a Medal of Freedom for his part in the scam. Those that revealed the naked emperor where punished severely. Julian Assuage is still being punished.

Generations were taught to blindly trust authority.

Today we are being told to blindly trust our government with regard to the horrors in Gaza. Those that dare speak out are labeled antisemitics and risk punishment by the police.

I can only get worse unless people start speaking up.

To be clear, I do not advocate or support violence.

[Sy Borg]

Authority bias.

People also blindly follow the media and academia, hence the bizarre pro-Hamas obsession by the left in the west, while completely ignoring far worse catastrophes in Sudan and other parts of Africa (often perpetrated by Iran proxy groups, not unlike Iran's other terrorist proxies like Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis).

That's what happens when populations rapidly increase. Faced with the daunting complexity of overpopulated communities, people will blindly follow thought leaders. If the media says "jump", people jump, hence the current obsession with Palestine and complete lack of interest in worse humanitarian problems in Africa.

If one is to encourage others not to be followers, it helps not to be an obvious follower oneself. Otherwise you are not encouraging independent thought, but conformity. It seems that you feel an urgent need for people to be pressured into thinking as you do, not to think for themselves.

[Mo_reese]

If one is to encourage others not to be followers, it helps not to be an obvious follower oneself. Otherwise you are not encouraging independent thought, but conformity. It seems that you feel an urgent need for people to be pressured into thinking as you do, not to think for themselves.

Interesting how you managed to make this about me.

[Lagayascienza]

We are all followers. It's part of being human, part of being a social species. The only way out is to become a hermit and live in isolation as a solitary hunter-gatherer. But is that even possible? Is there anywhere left these days where one could do that? Was it ever possible for a human to do that successfully?

[Pattern-chaser]

Those in power act so that they will remain in power, thus maintaining the status quo. This gives rise to many of the attitudes you describe, I think?

[Sy Borg]

We are all followers. It's part of being human, part of being a social species. The only way out is to become a hermit and live in isolation as a solitary hunter-gatherer. But is that even possible? Is there anywhere left these days where one could do that? Was it ever possible for a human to do that successfully?

If we are all followers, does that mean we are doomed to mindlessly follow whatever movements happen to demand our allegiance?

Or do you mean that all nations are followers, not just the US?

[Sy Borg]

If one is to encourage others not to be followers, it helps not to be an obvious follower oneself. Otherwise you are not encouraging independent thought, but conformity. It seems that you feel an urgent need for people to be pressured into thinking as you do, not to think for themselves.

Interesting how you managed to make this about me.

We both know the history and the subtext. If you are going to push a barrow, you can expect pushback.

Why just the US? What about the authoritarian regimes? Russia, China, Afghanistan, Palestine, Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, Turkmenistan. Eritrea.

[Lagayascienza]

We are all followers. It's part of being human, part of being a social species. The only way out is to become a hermit and live in isolation as a solitary hunter-gatherer. But is that even possible? Is there anywhere left these days where one could do that? Was it ever possible for a human to do that successfully?

If we are all followers, does that mean we are doomed to mindlessly follow whatever movements happen to demand our allegiance?

Or do you mean that all nations are followers, not just the US?

I mean all humans in all nations. We are a cooperative species and we generally follow the narratives that hold our societies together. In Australia, for example, many of us are committed to the "secular liberal democracy narrative" with its separation of powers. It generally woks for us as a society. It is very difficult, if not impossible these days, to step outside one's society and be absolutely free and self-sufficient and feel that one follows no one and nothing other than one's own self-dictated libertarian inclinations. Even libertarianism is composed of a bunch of doctrines that libertarians would follow.

In a democracy like ours, we elect leaders who persuade us they can lead us somewhere better than the other bloke. In authoritarian systems or theocracies, people are even less free to choose leaders or to go it alone. If one does not agree with the leaders, and if one wants a quiet life, the only thing one can do is to try to lay low and hope to go unnoticed. The US is only different in that it has two big parties instead of one. People there will be democrats or republicans, and they are free to call themselves libertarians or socialists or whatever, but they will all be following some group-speak or other. No one is an island onto him/herself.

[Mo_reese]

If one is to encourage others not to be followers, it helps not to be an obvious follower oneself. Otherwise you are not encouraging independent thought, but conformity. It seems that you feel an urgent need for people to be pressured into thinking as you do, not to think for themselves.

Interesting how you managed to make this about me.

We both know the history and the subtext. If you are going to push a barrow, you can expect pushback.

"Pushback" re. my positions or arguments is fine, but discussing how I feel is personal. I admit I am a follower, as you pointed out, we all are to varying degrees, but the point of my post was that I think our culture pushes blindly following authority and not healthy skepticism. How do you feel about the issue?

[Sy Borg]

If one is to encourage others not to be followers, it helps not to be an obvious follower oneself. Otherwise you are not encouraging independent thought, but conformity. It seems that you feel an urgent need for people to be pressured into thinking as you do, not to think for themselves.

Interesting how you managed to make this about me.

We both know the history and the subtext. If you are going to push a barrow, you can expect pushback.

"Pushback" re. my positions or arguments is fine, but discussing how I feel is personal. I admit I am a follower, as you pointed out, we all are to varying degrees, but the point of my post was that I think our culture pushes blindly following authority and not healthy skepticism. How do you feel about the issue?

As always, it's the tension between collectivism and individualism in societies that require collectivism to function and individualism to thrive. Power blocs have attempted to manipulate and dehumanise the masses so that they bend to their will for millennia. That balance is always in question.

Ultimately, with eight billion people, humans are increasingly not being treated as individuals but members of demographics. A number, a human resource. Every day the lying, manipulative mainstream news media gives people the wrong impression of the world. Most people seem to think that the US is a chaotic hellhole while China is led, modern and amazing. Not true. Aside from certain dynfunctional areas, the US is extremely functional in terms of utilities and services compared with many nation, including China.

The difference is that the US has a culture of openness, of self-criticism. People are allowed, even encouraged to complain so problems can be fixed. By contrast, if a person is found to have even taken a photo of problem that would make China look bad, the phone will be confiscated and the family put under surveillance.

So the media puts a laser light on the US's flaws and usually completely ignores its many positives, and likewise China avoids flak, despite having far worse issues than the US. I have heard an example that someone might have a wonderful garden but there are a few small brown patches. That's that the media focuses on exclusively. It's interesting, because Russia and China are leveraging US self-criticism, hypocritically and cynically joining in the protests, or even helping to whip them up.

If people read in the news media every day that they are simply members of a larger cohort, they will be influenced. Now we have these broad groups brought together by the media - men, women, black, white, Asian, LGBT - and it's all BS. These cohorts are so vastly disparate that they're as many differences within the group as outside of it. The group "people of colour" is especially demented - as if Moroccans, Congolese, Egyptians, Syrians, Israelis, Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Pacific Islanders and central Americans are one homogeneous group who are being "oppressed" by whites.

As you can see, I resist any attempt to place me in a box, and I want to see people as individuals - singular personalities - not their bloody box, which is BORING. However, I recognise that 1) society could not function well if everyone refused to be a "joiner" like me and 2) I am swimming against the stream, a small, pointless spot of minor rebellion against creeping control.

As populations grow, blind followership will increase and individuality will be mostly eliminated. Societies will become more monolithic entities, more organised and controlled. Thus, they will better be able to compete with one another, especially as human creativity will be increasingly replaced by machine efficiency. The price of having very large populations is personal and political freedom.

Due to extreme and unprecedented level of immigration, there is a growing need for greater societal control in the west to prevent anarchy. (Anarchy is always much worse for ordinary people than government control).

[Lagayascienza]

I agree that it is getting harder to maintain individuality these days. We have to live as part of a society. It is not possible for us to go it alone. If everyone went against the current we would have anarchy.

We can try to resist attempts to place us in a box, but doesn't that just place us in a box containing would be individualists who don't want to be placed in a box. Anarchists, radical libertarians, individualists etc. are all part of, and partake in
some group-speak. They are in their own boxes.

[LuckyR]

I agree that it is getting harder to maintain individuality these days. We have to live as part of a society. It is not possible for us to go it alone. If everyone went against the current we would have anarchy.

We can try to resist attempts to place us in a box, but doesn't that just place us in a box containing would be individualists who don't want to be placed in a box. Anarchists, radical libertarians, individualists etc. are all part of, and partake in
some group-speak. They are in their own boxes.

Very true. As it happens, the more total choices there are, the more people narrow their selections to a very few.

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, it's like when you go to the supermarket and your in the breakfast cereal aisle where your confronted with 100 different choices. I find it bewildering and end up buying what I always buy.

[Lagayascienza]

*sp ...you're ...
Apologies for the error.

[Pattern-chaser]

Due to extreme and unprecedented level of immigration, there is a growing need for greater societal control in the west...

...yes, and I think it will get worse as climate-change (and all associated environmental issues) really starts to bite...?