Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Whatisman]

Perhaps this has been discussed in this long thread but I would to chew on the idea of sovereignty.

Bibi Netanyahu allowed funding of Hamas, specifically to block a unified Palestinian front that could negotiate a 2 state solution. This was a purposeful attempt to oppress the rights of Palestinians, and Hamas reacted violently. If Hamas is to be blamed, can Israel(with Bibi as its elected leader) be blamed for enabling Hamas directly with money, and indirectly with years of subjugation of the Palestinian people in Gaza?

Is there a moral failure on the part of Bibi that should be acknowledged? Or is there a way to justify his funding Hamas to make Israel safer? Is the suppression of a people's sovereignty ever justified?

Perhaps from a morally relativist perspective, there can only be one people on that patch of holy land. A people fundamentally opposed by history and religion, therefore peace can only be had when one of them are removed for good, and he who has the power has the moral obligation to defeat the other in a Machiavellian perspective?

[Pattern-chaser]

I think peace can only come if Israel will withdraw behind agreed borders, and stay there. Perhaps the borders established by the USA/UK/UN land-grab of 1947? Israel's neighbours, all of them, would also have to agree to respect those borders too, of course.

But can it happen? I pray for it, but don't expect it.

I know, it's hard to see how the horror ends. Do you think that's something all sides might agree on? I don't understand the territorial ins and outs since then, it's a different territorial situation now.

Yes, it's very different now than it was in 1947. Before then, I would've argued against the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, because Palestine was already inhabited by the indigenous Palestinians who had been there since before the Jews were ejected, nearly 3000 years ago. But we have moved well beyond that point today.

In 1947, the Jews were 'given' over half (55%) of someone else's land (Palestine). I think that should be (more than?) enough for the Jews (as were) or Israelis (as are now). I think they should withdraw from the rest of Palestine, and let the indigenous Semites live there as they have done for a very long time...

N.B. "Semites", if it refers to anything at all these days, refers to the indigenous inhabitants of the Middle East. In ancient times, this included a Jewish component too, until they were driven out.

[Mo_reese]

“Jewish Biden staffer resigns over Gaza on Nakba Day.”

“I can no longer in good conscience continue to represent this administration amidst President Biden’s disastrous, continued support for Israel’s genocide in Gaza,” wrote the (now-former) special assistant to the chief of staff.

“The United States has long enabled Israeli war crimes and the status quo of apartheid and occupation. That status quo does not keep Israelis safe, nor Jews around the world. It certainly does not protect Palestinians, who have the right to freedom, safety, self-determination, and dignity, just as much as Jewish people do, and every person does. Any system that requires the subjugation of one group over another is not only unjust, but unsafe. Jewish safety cannot — and will not — come at the expense of Palestinian freedom. Making Jews the face of the American war machine makes us less safe.”

This is a very well written letter by a Jewish Biden staffer. Read the letter at Decensored.News. I wonder if the pro-genocide crowd will label her as antisemitic?

[Pattern-chaser]

And yet, in contrast, Michael Gove is delivering a major speech on "anti-Semitism" here in the UK.

UK risks ‘descending into darkness’ of antisemitism, Michael Gove to say

Safety of Jewish community ‘canary in mine’ for British political system, communities secretary will warn in speech

The artificial conflation of Jew and Israeli is once again being put to (mis)use.

[Mo_reese]

The artificial conflation of Jew and Israeli is once again being put to (mis)use.

Yes, exactly. I feel that those that support Zionism try to conflate Jew and Israeli by claiming that those that protest the actions of the Zionists are anti-Semitic. But many Jews are openly against Zionism and declare that it isn't Judaism. The "anti-Semitic" card has been played too often.

The reason that most in the US government support the actions of Israel, is because they fully participate in the corrupt process of billions of taxpayer dollars going to Israel and Israel kicking back millions to our government officials. They are willing to support genocide in order to keep the graft coming. They are also willing to have the police beat up those that protest against genocide.

[Pattern-chaser]

The artificial conflation of Jew and Israeli is once again being put to (mis)use.

Yes, exactly. I feel that those that support Zionism try to conflate Jew and Israeli by claiming that those that protest the actions of the Zionists are anti-Semitic. But many Jews are openly against Zionism and declare that it isn't Judaism. The "anti-Semitic" card has been played too often.

The reason that most in the US government support the actions of Israel, is because they fully participate in the corrupt process of billions of taxpayer dollars going to Israel and Israel kicking back millions to our government officials. They are willing to support genocide in order to keep the graft coming. They are also willing to have the police beat up those that protest against genocide.

I would go a little farther: I feel that those that support Zionism *do* conflate Jew and Israeli, *allowing them to claim* that those that protest the actions of the Zionists are anti-Semitic. The whole point of the conflation is to allow the use of the ℌ𝔬𝔩𝔬𝔠𝔞𝔲𝔰𝔱 to deflect and defeat all criticisms of the state of Israel and its policies.

[Sy Borg]

Here's a tale from Sudan:

On the night of 2 November, Aissa and her family boarded donkey carts and fled Hasahisa camp. Most of Aissa's belongings had been stolen, leaving her with only a mattress, which was later lost on the road. She followed her mother and children as they led the way.

“We were chased and forced to leave,” Aissa, 50, recounts. “Some of our men were killed. Others were detained. Our things were taken and stolen. As we were leaving, we were stopped [by armed men] and had to wait until the morning. They tied [people] up and beat the young boys.”

For over six months, Aissa and her family have resided in a single shipping container at the ravaged Zalingei fire station. Like 6.5 million other displaced people in Sudan, they primarily depend on humanitarian aid that remains unavailable in many places. Surviving with unreliable jobs here and there, Aissa and her family don’t have proper access to water, food or essential services, including medical care.

“There is no way to make any money,” explains Aissa. “We just go out and roam around the city. If you find someone you can do laundry for, you wash it and try to get some money.”

Alas, people only care about Palestinians and they have zero interest in Sudan's far worse situation. The result of that neglect by the UN and the Marxist faction of the intelligentsia is coming to fruition.

[Sy Borg]

If we are looking into the politics of Israel, let's take a peek behind the scenes at Hamas, whome people seem to see as victimised saints:

No doubt it's a negative spin, but gays famously do badly in Palestine.

I'm looking around for the "good guys" and I'm not seeing any. What I see is competition and the strategic considerations of each side.

Basically, Israel is rather like Taiwan and Ukraine. Each has a neighbouring monolith determined to take over, in this case it's the remnants of the Ottomans hoping to return the Middle East to a few major competing caliphates. Chances are that all three nations will be gone by the end of the century.

[Pattern-chaser]

Alas, people only care about Palestinians and they have zero interest in Sudan's far worse situation. The result of that neglect by the UN and the Marxist faction of the intelligentsia is coming to fruition.

UN warns Sudan paramilitary forces are encircling a capital in western Darfur, urges against attack
[...]
By EDITH M. LEDERER
Updated 12:39 AM BST, April 27, 2024

[Sy Borg]

Alas, people only care about Palestinians and they have zero interest in Sudan's far worse situation. The result of that neglect by the UN and the Marxist faction of the intelligentsia is coming to fruition.

UN warns Sudan paramilitary forces are encircling a capital in western Darfur, urges against attack
[...]
By EDITH M. LEDERER
Updated 12:39 AM BST, April 27, 2024

Now that the UN has pretended to pay attention to Sudan they can now return to their obsessive persecution of Israel before thinking about Sudan again.

[Gertie]

I think peace can only come if Israel will withdraw behind agreed borders, and stay there. Perhaps the borders established by the USA/UK/UN land-grab of 1947? Israel's neighbours, all of them, would also have to agree to respect those borders too, of course.

But can it happen? I pray for it, but don't expect it.

I know, it's hard to see how the horror ends. Do you think that's something all sides might agree on? I don't understand the territorial ins and outs since then, it's a different territorial situation now.

Yes, it's very different now than it was in 1947. Before then, I would've argued against the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, because Palestine was already inhabited by the indigenous Palestinians who had been there since before the Jews were ejected, nearly 3000 years ago. But we have moved well beyond that point today.

Right. There are many grievances (well founded) over specific pieces of land since 1947 which have been the nuts and bolts of hurdles to negotiations. To us they might seem trivial or minor, but not to a Palestinian who's had their home bulldozed for Israeli settlers to build on, and not for those settlers who now have no other home.

It's tricky, but if anything you'd hope the current devastation would have brought home that compromise is better than this horror. The current leaderships just don't care tho, they're too embedded in the cycle of hate and zero sum.

The only way out is via international pressure forcing Israel to withdraw and all sides to make concessions, maybe with a peace-keeping force. I think the ex-minister is on the right track. Will that stop it flaring up again? Only if the world helps Palestine rebuild and become a successfully independant and thriving state, and keeps Israel in check imo.

[Sy Borg]

The only way out of this is to appreciate that Hamas has zero interest in a two-state solution and stop pretending hat the Arab world will accept anything abut total removal of Israel. They are not gentle about these things. Millions of Israelis were purged from All surrounding Arab lands last century (which no one here cared about, of course).

In time, Israel will in time be subsumed into the old Ottoman power bloc. just as Ukraine will be absorbed by Russia and Taiwan by China. The strong always win and Israel is a tiny, sliver of non-Islam in an intensely Islamic area, only kept in existence by the US. When the money dries up, as it will eventually, Israel will be overrun and disappear.

Then those on this board can celebrate, as another small pocket of civilisation is replaced by barbarity that kills gays for simply existing and who subjugates women.

[Lagayascienza]

You may be right about the long term fate of Israel, Ukraine and Taiwan. I hope you are not. The only hope is that the strong don't always stay strong. If they did, Britain would still rule the waves and Europe would still be Roman.

But, then, it's a different world now. A war today between the three big powers, NATO, China and Russia, would be disaster for everyone. And everyone knows that if the nukes started flying all bets would be off.

The other things Israel has in its favor, apart from the backing of the West, is the fact China and Russia are, like the WEST, no friends of Islam. And if/when the world switches from oil and gas, Islamic countries in the ME would become impoverished and be distracted by the continuation of their tribal squabbling internally and among themselves.

[Sy Borg]

You may be right about the long term fate of Israel, Ukraine and Taiwan. I hope you are not. The only hope is that the strong don't always stay strong. If they did, Britain would still rule the waves and Europe would still be Roman.

But, then, it's a different world now. A war today between the three big powers, NATO, China and Russia, would be disaster for everyone. And everyone knows that if the nukes started flying all bets would be off.

The other things Israel has in its favor, apart from the backing of the West, is the fact China and Russia are, like the WEST, no friends of Islam. And if/when the world switches from oil and gas, Islamic countries in the ME would become impoverished and be distracted by the continuation of their tribal squabbling internally and among themselves.

Without the US acting as police of the world, might makes right is the only rule.

So there are these small oases of independence that exist in the face of overwhelming hostile outside forces. As a result, Ukraine is dying, Taiwan is facing increasing intimidation and Israel is now almost completely isolated, which will make them easier for the surrounding Arab nations to erase. They drove Jews from all of their countries, and all that remains is to remove this small pocket of Jews between Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Jordan and, of course, Palestine, which is being lead by the Iran proxy, Hamas.

The world won't be moving away from oil any time soon unless we find an alternative to plastic, polyurethane and asphalt. Rather, the need for oil will increase as coal-fired power stations are shut down in the west, resulting in China having to build more coal-fired power stations and to use much more and oil to create EVs, solar panels, wind farms and other western money-making projects that fail to solve the problem of baseload power in areas without significant hydroelectric and geothermal resources.

As such, I think parts of the ME will become much more powerful. Stay tuned for Ottoman Pt 2 - an attempt to create a single dominant Islamic caliphate across the ME. Given the many historical sectarian divisions within Islam, uniting against Israel and the US is key to bringing Shiites and Sunnis together. I think this is what Iran is trying to do with their proxies in Palestine, Yemen, Syria etc, although we can expect Turkey to rise too and compete for control over what will continue to be a "gold mine" for a much longer time than the mainstream media lets on.

[Mo_reese]

The only way out of this is to appreciate that Hamas has zero interest in a two-state solution and stop pretending hat the Arab world will accept anything abut total removal of Israel. They are not gentle about these things. Millions of Israelis were purged from All surrounding Arab lands last century (which no one here cared about, of course).

You say that "The only way out of this is to appreciate that Hamas has zero interest in a two-state solution..." How exactly would that be a "way out"? You continue to support Israel's actions but fail to express how you see this ending. How far are you willing to support the murder of Palestinians?
"Millions of Israelis were purged from All surrounding Arab lands..." Yes, but if your point is that that's justification for genocide, I don't agree.

In time, Israel will in time be subsumed into the old Ottoman power bloc. just as Ukraine will be absorbed by Russia and Taiwan by China. The strong always win and Israel is a tiny, sliver of non-Islam in an intensely Islamic area, only kept in existence by the US. When the money dries up, as it will eventually, Israel will be overrun and disappear.

Again is that justification for their current goal of exterminating all Palestinians in Gaza? I think their actions are making the situation worse. What possibly could be Israel's long term plan?

It looks to me like Israel has wanted the land of the West Bank and Gaza and are willing to sacrifice hostages and commit genocide to get that land.
The only justification I've heard from those that support Israel's efforts are that it would make Israel safer, which makes no sense; that their god gave them that land, therefore their genocide is justifiable; that the Arab peoples are subhuman (how ironic); and/of that it's retribution for the Oct 7 attack. Do you agree with any of these or do you have another justification?
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