Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[JackDaydream]

I raise the topic as an aspect of religious thinking, especially suggested in Hinduism and some teachings in Buddhist philosophy. The idea of rebirth also exists in esoteric Christianity and is embraced in some forms of 'new age" thinking. My own philosophy approach is to what extent does the idea make sense in the understanding of metaphysics of 'reality' or as a psychological way of understanding of the symbolic nature of continuity?

There have been some attempts to understand the idea of reincarnation as an objective aspect of metaphysics, such as the work of Ian Stevenson, documenting life experiences which seem to point to past lives. Other forms of analysis are more tentative. Personally, I would like to believe in reincarnation as opposed to death as the end or the idea of resurrection at the 'end of the world'.

However, I realise that it is about logic, evidence for consideration of what is possible. Do you think that the idea of reincarnation is a mere speculative fantasy arising in religious thinking? Does the idea of reincarnation have any potential validity in thinking of life, its continuity in the understanding of the philosophy of mind, body and spirit or does it rest upon wishful thinking?

[Philosophy_of_Guitar]

As far as we can tell, the concept of reincarnation and the surrounding beliefs of karma and enlightenment are much fairer than living once and being judged for it eternally. It is not fair for a finite crime to obtain infinite punishment. With karma, you pay for all your sins during the many lives that you live on earth before you reach enlightenment.

However, while these propositions make Hinduism and Buddhism the most internally consistent doctrines (compared to Abrahamic religions), like any religion, you have to accept the tenets based on faith (bad evidence).

There is a cost for every false belief which you hold that is paid in real life because false beliefs manifest as sub-optimal behaviours and actions which clash with reality. Depending on how many beliefs you have accepted based on bad evidence and how many logically-contradicting beliefs you hold, that clash with reality can really, really hurt.

That is why sound epistemology is so vital. This is the core of what philosophy is. Good philosophy brings providence and bad philosophy brings unnecessary pain.

[Alan Masterman]

In the broad picture, it is obvious that the traditional Christian view of the afterlife doesn't make a lot of sense, philosophically speaking. The philosophy of re-incarnation is an improvement to the extent that it at least implies a program of spiritual progress and learning; to this extent, Buddhism is preferable to Christianity.

And there is a considerable body of scientific research which points to the genuine possibility of re-incarnation; memory of previous lives revealed under hypnosis: the Bloxham Tapes, for example. Of course, some rationalise this as "they are just remembering something they read in a magazine in a dentist's waiting room", but, from a scientific point of view, such objections are easily demolished by asking "What is your evidence for that assertion?"

[Count Lucanor]

However, I realise that it is about logic, evidence for consideration of what is possible. Do you think that the idea of reincarnation is a mere speculative fantasy arising in religious thinking?

Of course it arose as part of religious thinking, and it could only come up in a time when philosophical speculation was subordinate to religious dogma.

Does the idea of reincarnation have any potential validity in thinking of life, its continuity in the understanding of the philosophy of mind, body and spirit or does it rest upon wishful thinking?

Wishful thinking, as all speculations about the continuation of life after death.

[Philosophy_of_Guitar]

However, I realise that it is about logic, evidence for consideration of what is possible. Do you think that the idea of reincarnation is a mere speculative fantasy arising in religious thinking?

Of course it arose as part of religious thinking, and it could only come up in a time when philosophical speculation was subordinate to religious dogma.

Does the idea of reincarnation have any potential validity in thinking of life, its continuity in the understanding of the philosophy of mind, body and spirit or does it rest upon wishful thinking?

Wishful thinking, as all speculations about the continuation of life after death.

I'm kinda with you on all this on a logical front... But we also can't prove that God doesn't exist... I'm not saying we should venerate a non-existent (or especially an immoral) God, we shouldn't... I'm saying we don't know. So we should act as such. "I don't know if God exists or not, therefore I live my life in light of this."

... And yes usually it goes something like "this life is likely my only one. I'm finally at peace with this. Now that I realize this, I can't help cherish every second of it and make the most out of this to create an awesome present for those around me as well as an awesome future for the children of tomorrow."

Another year that we're still here. So to you, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

[Count Lucanor]

However, I realise that it is about logic, evidence for consideration of what is possible. Do you think that the idea of reincarnation is a mere speculative fantasy arising in religious thinking?

Of course it arose as part of religious thinking, and it could only come up in a time when philosophical speculation was subordinate to religious dogma.

Does the idea of reincarnation have any potential validity in thinking of life, its continuity in the understanding of the philosophy of mind, body and spirit or does it rest upon wishful thinking?

Wishful thinking, as all speculations about the continuation of life after death.

I'm kinda with you on all this on a logical front... But we also can't prove that God doesn't exist... I'm not saying we should venerate a non-existent (or especially an immoral) God, we shouldn't... I'm saying we don't know. So we should act as such. "I don't know if God exists or not, therefore I live my life in light of this."

We can definitely know that the Abrahamic god, described in the sacred texts, doesn’t exist. There’s no reason to give serious thought to the gods of all religions. The claim that “there might be some god” which we are yet to know and describe, is no different than the claim of “there’s a dragon in my garage” described by Carl Sagan. Therefore, I live my life in light of this.

... And yes usually it goes something like "this life is likely my only one. I'm finally at peace with this. Now that I realize this, I can't help cherish every second of it and make the most out of this to create an awesome present for those around me as well as an awesome future for the children of tomorrow."

Another year that we're still here. So to you, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Have the nicest holidays: Christmas, Festivus, Sol Invictus, Saturnalia…and a happy New Year.

[A Material Girl]

And there is a considerable body of scientific research which points to the genuine possibility of re-incarnation.

I think I have seen a serious documentary about some people who apparently have reincarnated.

Alan, could you quote something from this considerable body of scientific research, because I have never heard of it, please?

[A Material Girl]

Another year that we're still here. So to you, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Have the nicest holidays: Christmas, Festivus, Sol Invictus, Saturnalia…and a happy New Year.

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2024 to all of you, guys!

[A Material Girl]

But we also can't prove that God doesn't exist...

Fortunately, it has just been scientifically proven right here: viewtopic.php?p=452197#p452197

[JackDaydream]

One of the reasons why I wonder about the possibility of reincarnation is in relation to certain advanced 'minds' of individuals, such as Einstein and some of the great philosophers and writers. That is because it seems that their level of understanding is so different from most people and whether this could have been achieved without previous lives. In this perspective on reincarnation I am thinking about underlying trances being passed on to to new lifeforms. It would be evolution of consciousness through many rebirths.

This view is compatible with esoteric thinking, such as theosophy. There is an underlying idea of the various kingdoms evolving generally, such as the animal kingdom shifting to the future human one. Also, in theosophy, there is the idea of possibilities beyond the human, including other interplanetary existences. Connected to this is the idea of some human beings having lived outside of this planet, such as the Pleidian forms of consciousness. Of course, I am aware that such ideas are far fetched and may rely on flights of philosophical fantasy.

[Philosophy_of_Guitar]

But we also can't prove that God doesn't exist...

Fortunately, it has just been scientifically proven right here: viewtopic.php?p=452197#p452197

Other members probably already said this, but this is categorically wrong. Einstein didn't prove God doesn't exist, Einstein didn't have a say about the Big Bang. General Relativity (one of Einstein's groundbreaking theories of gravity) answered MANY MANY questions about outer space, however these equations are still not a way to measure (aka know mathematically) what happened before the Big Bang. We don't even know what happened AT the Big Bang. Anyone saying that "we know time, space and matter came into existence at the Big Bang" (theist) OR "the Big Bang means there is no God" (atheist) are either misguided or outright disingenuous.

The truth is "WE DON'T KNOW." Our most powerful telescopes cannot reach far enough to see what happened at the Big Bang.

But it's ok to say "we don't know." There is enough philosophical practical wisdom that we're lucky to have access to, to live a meaningful life whether or not God exists. It's certainly much better to face the truth of not knowing and keep seeking the answer than to pretend that we know because of "faith" (faith being the belief in something based on bad evidence).

[Philosophy_of_Guitar]

Have the nicest holidays: Christmas, Festivus, Sol Invictus, Saturnalia…and a happy New Year.

Thank you very much, I did have an excellent one

We can definitely know that the Abrahamic god, described in the sacred texts, doesn’t exist. There’s no reason to give serious thought to the gods of all religions. The claim that “there might be some god” which we are yet to know and describe, is no different than the claim of “there’s a dragon in my garage” described by Carl Sagan. Therefore, I live my life in light of this.

Absolutely agreed about the Abrahamic (tri omni) God not existing. He's logically impossible.

I don't agree with the Carl Sagan analogy. We don't know what we don't know. You can't see sound, can you? Now you could say "but I can perceive it." There are most probably many many things we cannot perceive in the universe with our senses or logic... Perhaps let's add yet. to the previous sentence.

There are fundamental issues, both logical and practical, with saying "there is no God."

Here's a counter analogy;

Plato: "Have you seen WiFi? It's incredible!"

Aristotle: "What is that? Show me!"

Plato: "I can't"

Aristotle: "Then it doesn't exist."



Once again, it's rational to exercise life in light of not knowing God exists. But it's not rational to close the door on the fact that , God or many Gods could very realistically exist.

If God(s) exist(s), why do we believe we humans would have any notion of what he/she/they/it is/are?? Does an ant understand a cell phone? Does the know at which point it's interacting with the cell phone?

Cheers!

[Philosophy_of_Guitar]

One of the reasons why I wonder about the possibility of reincarnation is in relation to certain advanced 'minds' of individuals, such as Einstein and some of the great philosophers and writers. That is because it seems that their level of understanding is so different from most people and whether this could have been achieved without previous lives. In this perspective on reincarnation I am thinking about underlying trances being passed on to to new lifeforms. It would be evolution of consciousness through many rebirths.

This view is compatible with esoteric thinking, such as theosophy. There is an underlying idea of the various kingdoms evolving generally, such as the animal kingdom shifting to the future human one. Also, in theosophy, there is the idea of possibilities beyond the human, including other interplanetary existences. Connected to this is the idea of some human beings having lived outside of this planet, such as the Pleidian forms of consciousness. Of course, I am aware that such ideas are far fetched and may rely on flights of philosophical fantasy.

Reincarnation is logically possible. However, there is no evidence that it does exist. There are outliers in every conceivable domain of expertise: basketball, football, MMA, racing, mathematics, music, painting, physics, chemistry, literature, language. At any and all skills there are people who shine and can do things that 95% of people cannot fathom. Do you know what Eintein's Theories of Relativity are? (If not) can you learn them in depth? Possibly. Could you or I devise Einstein's theories? Most definitely not... But then again can you or I play basketball like Michael Jordan or piano like Mozart? Most definitely absolutely not.

Just because there exist geniuses like Einstein, Jordan and Mozart whose minds fall beyond the commoner's understanding, that doesn't mean magical things exist. You can't jump from:

Premise 1: Einstein was a genius

To:

Conclusion: God/magic/reincarnation exists.

That simply doesn't follow.

Now wouldn't be amazing if reincarnation existed? Yes, we all wish.... Wishful thinking. That's why we have to be careful about how we do philosophy. Wishful thinking can be a major detriment to philosophy..

(And philosophy is life! If philosophy is not life, why do philosophy at all?)

Cheers!

[Samana Johann]

Does the idea of reincarnation have any potential validity in thinking of life, its continuity in the understanding of the philosophy of mind, body and spirit or does it rest upon wishful thinking?

In two ways does giving into right view on faith at first hand act benefical, good householder:

* One does not give one's good and bad situations, qualities, experiences, "fortune"... into the responsibility of other or even see them as accidentally arising.
* One does not fall into the "hope" or "fear" that end of life makes all pointless: either (hope) because a lot of faults and debts (careless and fearless in acting wrong) or (fear) because done a lot of good and not gained fruits of it yet.

People having the view of "there is no world after, was no before" would act only destructive and evil.

[Samana Johann]

Reincarnation is logically possible. However, there is no evidence that it does exist.

So didn't good householder dwell in other realms forums, before he took place here? Will he, after falling out of this forum/existence, not quickly take birth in another? Did he never observe other falling out of certain realm of existence and the reappearing in another? And didn't he observe how tendencies and action follow one even if taking new birth in another "Brahmas" womb?