Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

Mental gender is part self-perception, part inclinations and, I expect, part aptitude. I'm not interested in this plethora of distracting labels you are applying to the situation. In your effort to invalidate what you appear to see as postmodern delusion, you over-complicate things, adding extra criteria that's simply not necessary.

Given the annoying ambiguity of central terms such as "identity", "gender", and "gender identity", I've been introducing those alternative terms for the purpose of clarification!

Brains are obviously gendered, whether you like the term or not.

What exactly does this mean? That the brains of females are neurophysiologically different from those of males?

Do you think male and female brains are the same and, like John Money, consider gender identity to be social construct? Funny how, as Lagaya noted, infants of each sex already preferences because they know anything about gender.

Your extra terms only muddy the waters. It's very obvious, just based n plain old reality, that gender identity is real and it varies. It's not the fault of transpeople that our understanding of it is weak.

The evidence provided by history (and simply observing people and animals, as per the above post) makes this obvious. Mentally, there is overlap between men and women, much more so than physically. The most masculine female will be enormously more stereotypically mentally masculine than the most feminine male. Some people's brains are oriented so far in the direction of the opposite physical gender that they decide it's more comfortable to live in that gender, and not be subject to expectations they can't deliver.
I don't see why they should be invalidated by people who know precious little about them - but that's their situation.

"To invalidate" – that's one of those fashionable Wokespeak terms I don't like. I don't "invalidate" the subjective experience of gender dysphoria or "gender incongruence", and I'm anything but a conservative defender of sex stereotypes. I have no problem at all with "gender-nonconforming" appearance or behaviour. I just don't buy the falsities and lies spread by gender theorists & activists—such as that transsexual men are women/transsexual women are men.

I don't care about your - or anyone else's - political fetishes and buzzwords. They have no bearing on what I say. I prefer to have my own mind rather than chase every fashionable cause.

The fact is that you are arguing that gender identity is not real, and thus you have been working to invalidate and undermine transsexuals. No one on this thread has said that transmen and regular men, or transwomen and regular women, are the same.

In fact, I said that they should be classified as third and fourth sexes so they have a place, but you were against that too. Why? Due to your intractable views about biological sex, even denying that the multiple types of hermaphroditism in the animal kingdom were merely just variations of being male and female. That "logic" is as obviously flawed as the claim that non primary colours are not real.

It is insane to force post-operative transpeople to be purely treated as their birth gender - which means making post-operative ostensible women use men's bathrooms and men's prisons. That's basically a death sentence. I think the old balance was right in granting transpeople all rights of the opposite biological sex aside from sport and domestic violence services. Pushing to extend those rights to sport, DV services - especially for transgenderists who haven't had reconstructive surgery - has proved to be a bridge too far. Hence the public reaction.

The upshot of all this will probably be similar to BLM - and increase of prejudice, racism and misinformation that ignores the last half century of learning. Activists seem to routinely make things worse for their causes by generating resentment via divisiveness.

[Consul]

The fact is that you are arguing that gender identity is not real, and thus you have been working to invalidate and undermine transsexuals.

Would you please tell me what you mean by "gender identity"! I really need an explicit definition now!

No one on this thread has said that transmen and regular men, or transwomen and regular women, are the same.

I'd say transmen are "irregular" (atypical) women, and transwomen are "irregular" (atypical) men.

In fact, I said that they should be classified as third and fourth sexes so they have a place, but you were against that too.

Yes, because it's rubbish. Transsexuals and intersexuals can very well "have a place" without being "classified as third and fourth sexes."

It is insane to force post-operative transpeople to be purely treated as their birth gender - which means making post-operative ostensible women use men's bathrooms and men's prisons.…

I've never said that all transsexual men/women, including post-operative ones, ought to be "purely treated as" men/women in all social situations. I only said that they are not really women/men.

[Lagayascienza]

Gender identity, gender awareness, one’s sense of one’s gender, the feeling of being a certain gender… Call it what you will, it is real and it cannot be made to disappear in a cloud of terminological dispute. The John/Joan case demonstrated just how real gender-identity is and that it is “hard-wired”.

There is gender or sex (male or female) and then there is ones sense of one’s gender or gender identity. Both are real. In the vast majority of the population gender and gender-identity coincide. But in a tiny percentage they do not. The best treatment for gender dysphorics appears to be to allow them to live as the sex or gender they feel themselves to be. That may require surgical reassignment.

Arguments about whether trans people are real males or real females is academic and divorced from the living realities of trans people. Or would be, if they were permitted, in as far as is possible, to live as men or women without discrimination adding to what they had already suffered when they were gender dysphorics. Should a trans women be able to use the ladies room? Of course she should. If she’s been surgically reassigned it will be difficult for her to stand at the urinal in the men’s room. If she commits a crime and is sent to jail, should she go to a women’s or a men’s prison? How would a surgically reassigned trans woman fare in a men’s prison? She’d be raped ten times a day. It’s a no brainer.

Fortunately, gender dysphoria is a very rare condition, and trans-gender people make up a tiny proportion of the population. Therefore, it’s not as if restrooms and prisons are going to be swamped with trans people and in most cases no one will even be aware that a person is trans. When in a restroom, who asks others in there for evidence of XY or XX chromosome status? It’s silly. Live and let live.

[Consul]

Gender identity, gender awareness, one’s sense of one’s gender, the feeling of being a certain gender… Call it what you will, it is real and it cannot be made to disappear in a cloud of terminological dispute.

"Call it what you will!" – That's exactly "the hasty, hazy, lazy use of language" (Jack Block) I don't like. It's the gender theorists who have obfuscated the issue with their cloudy terms!

[Consul]

There is gender or sex (male or female) and then there is ones sense of one’s gender or gender identity. Both are real.

Sex is surely real. Knowledge of one's sex is surely real too. I know I'm a man. As for gender identity, I can't tell if it's real or not unless I know what exactly it is supposed to be.

Should a trans women be able to use the ladies room? Of course she should. If she’s been surgically reassigned it will be difficult for her to stand at the urinal in the men’s room.

All the men's rooms I know also have cabins with toilet seats.

[Lagayascienza]

Gender identity, gender awareness, one’s sense of one’s gender, the feeling of being a certain gender… Call it what you will, it is real and it cannot be made to disappear in a cloud of terminological dispute.

"Call it what you will!" – That's exactly "the hasty, hazy, lazy use of language" (Jack Block) I don't like. It's the gender theorists who have obfuscated the issue with their cloudy terms!

So what exactly do you want to call gender identity, gender awareness, one’s sense of one’s gender, the feeling of being a certain gender? And can you tell us why your term is better than another for everyday purposes?

[JackDaydream]

Mental gender is part self-perception, part inclinations and, I expect, part aptitude. I'm not interested in this plethora of distracting labels you are applying to the situation. In your effort to invalidate what you appear to see as postmodern delusion, you over-complicate things, adding extra criteria that's simply not necessary.

Given the annoying ambiguity of central terms such as "identity", "gender", and "gender identity", I've been introducing those alternative terms for the purpose of clarification!

Brains are obviously gendered, whether you like the term or not.

What exactly does this mean? That the brains of females are neurophysiologically different from those of males?

The evidence provided by history (and simply observing people and animals, as per the above post) makes this obvious. Mentally, there is overlap between men and women, much more so than physically. The most masculine female will be enormously more stereotypically mentally masculine than the most feminine male. Some people's brains are oriented so far in the direction of the opposite physical gender that they decide it's more comfortable to live in that gender, and not be subject to expectations they can't deliver.
I don't see why they should be invalidated by people who know precious little about them - but that's their situation.

"To invalidate" – that's one of those fashionable Wokespeak terms I don't like. I don't "invalidate" the subjective experience of gender dysphoria or "gender incongruence", and I'm anything but a conservative defender of sex stereotypes. I have no problem at all with "gender-nonconforming" appearance or behaviour. I just don't buy the falsities and lies spread by gender theorists & activists—such as that transsexual men are women/transsexual women are men.

You say that you are introducing the terms for 'clarification' but for whose purpose? Your basic argument is probably similar to that of JK Rowling, who is currently challenging anti-hate law in Scotland, by her argument that people should not be objected to in free speech in argument for calling a man a man.

It is a complex issue because freedom of speech is important. However, one of the problems is that there is a blurry line between the use of so-called 'fact' and the expression of hatred, as well as prejudice and discrimination.

The people who are violent may lack the ability to articulate philosophy views. Also, the silencing of anyone may drive emotion underground, where it may fester. That is why there is activism, wokeism and those who oppose it. This arises from innate aspects of human nature and it may be this with drives the political aspects of gender. It is here that gender remains a matter beyond the simple biological aspects of reproduction.

[Lagayascienza]

There is gender or sex (male or female) and then there is ones sense of one’s gender or gender identity. Both are real.

Sex is surely real. Knowledge of one's sex is surely real too. I know I'm a man. As for gender identity, I can't tell if it's real or not unless I know what exactly it is supposed to be.

Should a trans women be able to use the ladies room? Of course she should. If she’s been surgically reassigned it will be difficult for her to stand at the urinal in the men’s room.

All the men's rooms I know also have cabins with toilet seats.

So a trans woman is supposed to just walk into the men's room and expect none of the men in there to bat an eyelid? That's just unrealistic and cruel top the trans woman.

[JackDaydream]

Life might be simpler if there were more 'unisex' toilet facilities, as individual cubicles. There are disabled toilets or ones in coffee shops but often a key is needed to gain access. The unisex toilets would not be simply for the benefit of trans people because everyone can use them and there is no real need for separate facilities, or rows of urinals.

[Sculptor1]

Irrespective of whether it's innate or not, I have no difficulty at all with accepting transsexuality as a mental phenomenon!

Tut tut.
You are confusing brain structure with "mental".

[Belinda]

I knew nothing about the John/Joan case until I read about it in this thread and so I looked into it online. It’s really heartbreaking what that poor guy had to endure (before he died by suicide) because of a botched circumcision and misguided treatment by a psychologist/sexologist who believed gender identity was learned/socially constructed rather than innate and who used this child in an attempt to prove his theory. This case demonstrates that gender identity is innate and not learned. It has a biological basis and will be there at birth waiting to develop into awareness. It’s horrible to think that, until 2013, John, because of his gender dysphoria, would have met the DSM criteria of someone with a psychiatric condition when all he had was the normal developing awareness of his innate gender. Gender dysphoria should never have been listed in the DSM as a “psychosexual disorder” just as homosexuality should never have been so listed in the DSM.

The specific cause of gender dysphoria remains uncertain but what does seems clear that, as with non-gender dysphorics, there is also a biological basis, rather than a psychological/social basis to gender dysphoria. Indeed, neurobiological research into gender dysphoria has demonstrated “distinct gray matter volume and brain activation and connectivity differences" in people suffering from gender dysphoria when compared to controls; and this "leads to the concept of brain gender”.*

So, the science seems to indicate that gender identity is there at birth waiting to develop into awareness and that it is not learned or due to psychosocial factors. Since it is not possible to address the underlying biological cause of gender dysphoria, the result will be that the small percentage of children born with gender dysphoria are likely to experience considerable suffering because of it and that, therefore, gender reassignment rather than trying to force a kid to be what he/she does not feel him/herself to naturally be, is the best option.

I don't know enough to say what age is optimal best for gender reassignment in people with gender dysphoria but I imagine fairly early intervention would reduce suffering.


*ltinay M, Anand A (August 2020). "Neuroimaging gender dysphoria: a novel psychobiological model". Brain Imaging and Behavior. 14 (4): 1281–1297. doi:10.1007/s11682-019-00121-8. PMID 31134582. S2CID 167207854.

A recently published study (Colizzi et al. 2014), where 118 patients were followed before and 12 months after HRT revealed that 14% of the patients had comorbid Axis-I psychiatric diagnosis. Psychiatric distress and impairment were found to be higher in the beginning phase of the study but after HRT, there was a significant improvement in major depressive disorder, anxiety and functional impairment.

Similarly, Fisher and colleagues' (Fisher et al. 2013) 2013 paper suggests that the dysfunction and impairment in the transgender population is highly associated with lack of HRT, which may suggest that at least a fraction of the impairment that was documented as comorbid Axis-I psychiatric disorders could in fact be impairment from GD. Finally, a metanalysis done by Dhejne and colleagues (Dhejne et al. 2016) reviewed 38 longitudinal studies that investigated psychiatric comorbidities pre and post gender affirmation treatments in transgender people with GD. The results of this analysis indicate that depression and GAD do have higher prevalence in transgender population but this finding was isolated to baseline (pre-gender affirmation treatments) where after gender affirmation therapies, rate of psychiatric comorbidities decreased to cisgender population levels”

Dogs are mammals. Of my ten dogs only the ex female sighthound looked at herself in the full length mirror. The others were GSDs and GSD crosses, and one terrier, ex males and ex females.

Scottish and English babies typically learn 'mummy' and 'daddy 'not the other variants. Moreover I met one baby from a children's home for orphans whose first word was 'poss' for 'porridge.'

As to your most important point , about the John/Joan case , I see no reason that a dearly -held set of identifying concepts, whatever they be, cannot possibly be culturally determined . There are many religious martyrs , martyrs to a single belief , and national martyrs .

Among the Mende of Sierra Leone it was (for all I know still is somewhat the case) that an older woman in virtue of her age becomes an honorary man with accompanying privileges and responsibilities. (Little).The older woman takes precedence over a younger woman of any religion or skin colour.

I imagine that, more than surgical intervention, cultural intervention such that gendered choices are honoured would reduce suffering.

[JackDaydream]

I knew nothing about the John/Joan case until I read about it in this thread and so I looked into it online. It’s really heartbreaking what that poor guy had to endure (before he died by suicide) because of a botched circumcision and misguided treatment by a psychologist/sexologist who believed gender identity was learned/socially constructed rather than innate and who used this child in an attempt to prove his theory. This case demonstrates that gender identity is innate and not learned. It has a biological basis and will be there at birth waiting to develop into awareness. It’s horrible to think that, until 2013, John, because of his gender dysphoria, would have met the DSM criteria of someone with a psychiatric condition when all he had was the normal developing awareness of his innate gender. Gender dysphoria should never have been listed in the DSM as a “psychosexual disorder” just as homosexuality should never have been so listed in the DSM.

The specific cause of gender dysphoria remains uncertain but what does seems clear that, as with non-gender dysphorics, there is also a biological basis, rather than a psychological/social basis to gender dysphoria. Indeed, neurobiological research into gender dysphoria has demonstrated “distinct gray matter volume and brain activation and connectivity differences" in people suffering from gender dysphoria when compared to controls; and this "leads to the concept of brain gender”.*

So, the science seems to indicate that gender identity is there at birth waiting to develop into awareness and that it is not learned or due to psychosocial factors. Since it is not possible to address the underlying biological cause of gender dysphoria, the result will be that the small percentage of children born with gender dysphoria are likely to experience considerable suffering because of it and that, therefore, gender reassignment rather than trying to force a kid to be what he/she does not feel him/herself to naturally be, is the best option.

I don't know enough to say what age is optimal best for gender reassignment in people with gender dysphoria but I imagine fairly early intervention would reduce suffering.


*ltinay M, Anand A (August 2020). "Neuroimaging gender dysphoria: a novel psychobiological model". Brain Imaging and Behavior. 14 (4): 1281–1297. doi:10.1007/s11682-019-00121-8. PMID 31134582. S2CID 167207854.

A recently published study (Colizzi et al. 2014), where 118 patients were followed before and 12 months after HRT revealed that 14% of the patients had comorbid Axis-I psychiatric diagnosis. Psychiatric distress and impairment were found to be higher in the beginning phase of the study but after HRT, there was a significant improvement in major depressive disorder, anxiety and functional impairment.

Similarly, Fisher and colleagues' (Fisher et al. 2013) 2013 paper suggests that the dysfunction and impairment in the transgender population is highly associated with lack of HRT, which may suggest that at least a fraction of the impairment that was documented as comorbid Axis-I psychiatric disorders could in fact be impairment from GD. Finally, a metanalysis done by Dhejne and colleagues (Dhejne et al. 2016) reviewed 38 longitudinal studies that investigated psychiatric comorbidities pre and post gender affirmation treatments in transgender people with GD. The results of this analysis indicate that depression and GAD do have higher prevalence in transgender population but this finding was isolated to baseline (pre-gender affirmation treatments) where after gender affirmation therapies, rate of psychiatric comorbidities decreased to cisgender population levels”

Dogs are mammals. Of my ten dogs only the ex female sighthound looked at herself in the full length mirror. The others were GSDs and GSD crosses, and one terrier, ex males and ex females.

Scottish and English babies typically learn 'mummy' and 'daddy 'not the other variants. Moreover I met one baby from a children's home for orphans whose first word was 'poss' for 'porridge.'

As to your most important point , about the John/Joan case , I see no reason that a dearly -held set of identifying concepts, whatever they be, cannot possibly be culturally determined . There are many religious martyrs , martyrs to a single belief , and national martyrs .

Among the Mende of Sierra Leone it was (for all I know still is somewhat the case) that an older woman in virtue of her age becomes an honorary man with accompanying privileges and responsibilities. (Little).The older woman takes precedence over a younger woman of any religion or skin colour.

I imagine that, more than surgical intervention, cultural intervention such that gendered choices are honoured would reduce suffering.

I wonder what difference it would have made if Joan had been told that she had been born

Good. I want more people to know about the John/Joan case. My brain blew a fuse when I first found out about it.
There has never been a more clear example of the reality of mental gender. With John, his feelings can't be argued to be delusional, which is the standard lazy position regarding transpeople (and gays in some circles too), that is becoming increasingly popular today and yesterday's knowledge is forgotten.

What you call "mental gender" is sexual self-representation—species of which are sexual self-conception (self-image), self-perception, self-cognition (self-knowledge), self-conviction (self-belief), self-interpretation (self-understanding), self-identification/self-classification.

Sexual self-representation is part of a person's mental reality, but it's not a "gender". In the case of transsexuality, one's sexual self-representation doesn't correspond to one's sexual facts, but that is not a mismatch between different genders.

Mental gender is part self-perception, part inclinations and, I expect, part aptitude. I'm not interested in this plethora of distracting labels you are applying to the situation. In your effort to invalidate what you appear to see as postmodern delusion, you over-complicate things, adding extra criteria that's simply not necessary.

Brains are obviously gendered, whether you like the term or not. The evidence provided by history (and simply observing people and animals, as per the above post) makes this obvious. Mentally, there is overlap between men and women, much more so than physically. The most masculine female will be enormously more stereotypically mentally masculine than the most feminine male. Some people's brains are oriented so far in the direction of the opposite physical gender that they decide it's more comfortable to live in that gender, and not be subject to expectations they can't deliver.

I don't see why they should be invalidated by people who know precious little about them - but that's their situation.

I wonder what difference it would have made to John if he had been told the error at some stage, especially early on before too much physical interventions had taken place to 'normalise' him by making him into a 'girl'. Of course, it can only be speculation. With intersex people some were left in the dark and gradually more openness and choice.

The aspect of being given choice is a cultural factor. Some trans people have lived in cultural settings, especially extreme religious families, leaving them with great conflict of choice. Being able to see other people transition and being 'trapped' in a family they are made to feel pressured not to be able to follow an authentic pathway has been a source of conflict, just as gay people being stuck in the closet. On the other hand, the possibility of treatment too early or without enough therapeutic intervention, especially with puberty blockers hinges upon the issue of people being given choice. The whole nature of choice and informed consent is where the nature of gender becomes an ethical issue and one involving cultural values and understanding in the interpretation of knowledge.

[Lagayascienza]

Dogs are mammals. Of my ten dogs only the ex female sighthound looked at herself in the full length mirror. The others were GSDs and GSD crosses, and one terrier, ex males and ex females.

But, Belinda, we are talking about human beings here and not dogs.

Scottish and English babies typically learn 'mummy' and 'daddy 'not the other variants. Moreover I met one baby from a children's home for orphans whose first word was 'poss' for 'porridge.'

What has this got to do with people suffering from gender dysphoria?

As to your most important point , about the John/Joan case , I see no reason that a dearly -held set of identifying concepts, whatever they be, cannot possibly be culturally determined . There are many religious martyrs , martyrs to a single belief , and national martyrs .

Among the Mende of Sierra Leone it was (for all I know still is somewhat the case) that an older woman in virtue of her age becomes an honorary man with accompanying privileges and responsibilities. (Little).The older woman takes precedence over a younger woman of any religion or skin colour.

Try as I may, I cannot see what relevance this has to with the issue of gender dysphoria. Would you have told this to John/Joan? Do you think your anecdote about the Mende of Sierra Leone would have helped john/joan? And what help do you think it would be to those living with gender dysphoria today?

I imagine that, more than surgical intervention, cultural intervention such that gendered choices are honoured would reduce suffering.

Well, if cultural intervention had been enough, Joan would not have needed to have further surgery to restore his maleness and restore him (however imperfectly)to the John he really, and always, was. You are saying, in effect, that John's emasculation and subsequent psycho treatment by the gentle Dr Money should have cured John of the bizarre notion that he was male.

That’s post-modernist psychosocial-babble on stilts.

Science tells us that there is something different in the physical brains of people with gender dysphoria. John had a male brain and no amount of cultural intervention could change that fact. And people with gender dysphoria are in a similar situation. They have brains that tell them their physical sex is not the sex they should be. “Cultural intervention” (whatever that means) will not address their problem any more than it addressed poor John’s problem.

Again, we are talking about human beings here, not dogs, and not post-modernist psychosocial abstractions.

[Pattern-chaser]

+++I just noticed that this thread is in the wrong subforum—Ethics & Morality. It should be in the Epistemology & Metaphysics subforum!+++

Cute. So now psychology is metaphysics.

It's not even a philosophical question, it's a science question. Yet the "philosophers" here tend to ignore the prior research done on transpeople, which is why the concept of gender identity exists.

The topic was in the ethics section because, if one is not aware of the decades of research in the field, this looks like a matter of right and wrong, unnatural and natural, sin and virtue, as it was portrayed in mainstream media.

The way in which John knew there was 'something wrong' intuitively shows the complexity of an innate sense of gender and identity. Biology is part of psychological wiring. It is far from simple though and the exact role of hormones in the brain is not clear. The translation of biology into the emergence of identity includes so many variables. The division between nature and nurture is a binary and, even the so called debate as to whether male/female is a binary or non binary is a binary distinction to some extent when there is no absolute answer.

Exactly. The mind and body are one, so the 'wiring' is both biological and "psychological", all mixed up together. Consul seems only to be aware of the biological 'wiring', and not the connection to the mind, and oneness with the mind. I think this is what's leading to confusion. As you observe, Consul has some difficulty in accepting the mind-related connections; the "mind" part of bodymind. If you consider body (physical) and mind (non-physical) to be distinct/independent, but 'related', you end up where Consul is now, I think?

[Consul]

Irrespective of whether it's innate or not, I have no difficulty at all with accepting transsexuality as a mental phenomenon!

Tut tut.
You are confusing brain structure with "mental".

I'm a reductive materialist, so I do think all mental phenomena are neural phenomena.