Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

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As described in the topic about the 9/11 Truth movement (the fact that it is backed by two presidential candidates in 2024) I was forced to investigate the 9/11 attack by factors that involve paranormal influences.

I've published a dedicated article about the 9/11 Truth movement that is promoted on several websites that reach visitors from literally all countries in the world on a monthly basis. An example website is https://css-art.com/, an online art gallery for modern web art.

CSS-ART.COM
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The 9/11 Truth Movement Backed By Two Presidential Candidates in 2024
https://gmodebate.org/911-truth/

When I was 15 years old I had an extreme paranormal dream that showed more than 20 years into the future, including an attack on my home in 2019. My home in the city Utrecht, the Netherlands, was located directly opposite of Ψ Institute of Parapsychology Netherlands, an organization that investigates paranormal phenomena.

Upon writing an article that intended to explore the philosophical implications of the ability to perceive more than 20 years into the future, from the perspective of theories of consciousness, I learned that the paranormal department of the CIA and the field parapsychology in general faced active political suppression on par with "scientists behaving like religious inquisitors".

The Scientific “Taboo” Against Parapsychology
There is a taboo against investigating parapsychology, almost complete lack of funding, and professional and personal attacks (Cardeña, 201).
https://gmodebate.org/paranormal/

The paranormal department of the CIA faced active political suppression during the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, since around the same time that the popular X-files TV series was cancelled.

X-Files
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As an example, the 2009 film (2004 book) The Men Who Stare at Goats intends to debunk Third Eye Spies.

"The Men Who Stare at Goats" debunks Third Eye Spies
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In 2019, the same year as the attack on my home, the film Third Eye Spies was released that intends to show that paranormal perception is real.

"A True Story of CIA Psychic Spying"

Third Eye Spies film
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Since the YouTube film is continuously deleted, you can find the film + .mp4 download here: https://gmodebate.org/911-truth/#thirdeyespies

Several scientists of University of Cambridge provided the following status quo perspective on Third Eye Spies that shows the effect that the 2009 debunk movie has had:

The US govt did work on this. They stopped because they found it is not real.

The story is well documented, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_W ... e_at_Goats ( The Men Who Stare at Goats)

The point is that the US govt (and, presumably others) spent a lot of money looking for these effects but it did not find them.

What about the film thirdeyespies.com? (2019)

It's garbage. There is no evidence that ESP is real so a movie that says otherwise is a crap movie (or maybe a fun sci fi movie).

As of February 2022, the website thirdeyespies.com was deleted and showed a questionable mocking image. As of 2024, the website shows an Indonesian gamble website. On YouTube the documentary is repeatedly deleted.

Third Eye Spies film deleted
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This may provide an indication of the political suppression that has been going on after the release of the film Third Eye Spies.

What is your opinion on the idea of paranormal perception and Third Eye Spies? Do you believe that it is real? If so, what would it imply about modern theories of consciousness, and for example the ability of AI to become conscious? Might the field parapsychology hold a key to defend philosophical ideas about 'real consciousness' in the future?

While I personally would understand a natural aversion of, or choice to neglect and ignore the field parapsychology, and to leave it to people who are 'gifted' or otherwise personally involved with it. This topic intends to suggest that the field parapsychology might hold a vital key for progress in theories of consciousness and as such, might require impartial philosophical investigation by people not involved with anything paranormal.

For motivation: philosopher William James (Harvard), known as the father of psychology, was the president of the Society for Psychical Research that researched paranormal phenomena.

[LuckyR]

If it was real, folks would be making a killing in Las Vegas, not hanging out in labs and doing séances.

[Sculptor1]

Ψ parapsychology is a phantom
there is nothing to surpress because it does not exist

[value]

Paranormal might concern a scope that has a different context than 'the real'. A scope that is not repeatable while meaningfully relevant.

The idea that anything other than the empirically comprehensible scope should be excluded from consideration might be a fallacy, especially when it concerns theories of consciousness.

I recently read several articles that posed that all options should be on the table for theories of consciousness, due to rapid developments in AI and the evident failure of the leading existing theories, with the denouncing of Integrated Information Theory (IIT) as quackery by a group of prominent scientists, and philosopher David Chalmers winning a 25 year bet from a neuroscientist, being some examples.

(2024) AI consciousness: scientists say we urgently need answers
Could artificial intelligence (AI) systems become conscious? A trio of consciousness scientists say that, at the moment, no one knows — and they are expressing concern about the lack of inquiry into the question.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-04047-6

All options... Why then choose to exclude theories of consciousness that are proposed by for example the paranormal department of the CIA? Why the choice for principled negligence?

Despite the suppression of the paranormal department of the CIA, it did manage to get publicity on mainstream media. While some articles were deleted within one year, for example the article The Reality of ESP: A Physicist's Proof of Psychic Abilities on Watkins Magazine, a 2021 article on Vice.com is still available.

(2021) How to Escape the Confines of Time and Space According to the CIA
The takeaway is that human consciousness brought to a sufficiently altered (focused) state could obtain information about the past, present, and future. Wayne reasons that our all-reaching consciousness eventually participates in an infinite continuum. Long after we depart the space-time dimension and the hologram of Universal absolutes (Plato's forms) each one of us perceives is snuffed out, our consciousness continues.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/7k9qag/ ... to-the-cia (PDF)

In this article a case is made for a theory of consciousness that supports the work of Third Eye Spies:

Theory of consciousness by the CIA
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I personally would wonder, in the case that paranormal/parapsychology is established to be of relevance, what vital interests might it serve for humanity's existence? From that sense, it seems more logical to me that people choose a path of moral application and lab coats (i.e. parapsychology).

It might be considered the highest ethics to stick to 'the real', in the form of Truth or otherwise. However, from a philosophical sense, it is evident that the concept 'beyond existence' requires exploration.

Albert Einstein once wrote the following prophecy about that exploration.

Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.

Within Western philosophy, the realm beyond space has traditionally been considered a realm beyond physics — the plane of God’s existence in Christian theology.

In the early eighteenth century, the "infinite monads" of philosopher Gottfried Leibniz — which he imagined to be the primitive elements of the universe — existed, like God, outside space and time. His theory was a step toward emergent space-time, but it was still metaphysical, with only a vague connection to the world of concrete things.

While parapsychology and paranormal are terms with a heavy socio-cultural burden, due to the way people have used personal emotional experience in those areas with ideas such as being 'gifted' to access a supposed related scope 'beyond existence'. Several philosophical questions such as "What vital interests or good might the potential revealed by parapsychology/paranormal serve?" and correspondingly, the prospect of AI to mimic human behaviour and empirical intelligence to the fullest extent that might diminish people's ability to argue for a 'real consciousness' beyond what empirically can be said of it, it might be of vital importance to do include the ideas of that field when it concerns the exploration of theories of consciousness.

Why principled negligence? The paranormal department of the CIA didn't exist for no reason. A personal belief (or fear of losing power etc.) should not stand in the way of potential vital progress that the field of parapsychology may hold for humanity's intellectual evolution.

[value]

I recently shared a story about the experiential perception of an animal spirit in another topic.

I was recently visiting a forest when I heard a robin bird among some other sing birds. The specific multi-specie bird group (which seemed odd since I didn't know that robins would group with other types of birds) seemed to stay around me when I walked the forest, which was kind of remarkable, since birds normally follow their own path and it isn't common to continuously hear the same multi-specie birds while walking (it was a wild forest).

After a 5 km walk I decided to sit down on a piece of wood but shortly after I stood up again to walk to a tree. While I was studying the tree, I first mentally noticed the robin coming down in a sort of act of happiness (it was as if I could perceive the bird as a sort of Disney princess spirit), flying in with high speed and hopping gracefully with a sort of magical rhythm over and under the branches of a fallen tree at about 1 meter distance from me, to end on the ground besides me, with its eye directed at me, where it hopped away over the ground a bit, to suddenly stop at its moment to have a look again with its big eye in an apparent attempt to connect with the human eyesight.

The robin seems to be interested to make eye contact with the human solely for making that eye contact.

The first time that I noticed the spirit in a forest, I felt being watched by something but didn't know what. Later I recognized the same spirit when a robin bird was watching with its eyes sparkling with happiness, as if the intention of that sparkle was to get a deeper eye contact. The robin bird seems to be interested to connect with the human on a very deep level through direct one-on-one eye contact (stare) and I have not seen something similar with other birds.

Perhaps not many people tell about such experiences. What should one take from it?

An admin of this forum suggested that the bird might just have been interested to get food.

My guess is that someone has been feeding the robin.

I then asked the following question:

Why care for an animal spirit when the following cannot be disproven using words: "It's just a bird that wants some food"

There are hundreds of thousands of robins all over the world. Europe has decided to sacrifice its ancient old growth forests for cheap green energy and calls it clean. A significant amount of forest has already been cut down. The Renewable Energy Directive (RED) in the EU has incentivized the burning of wood for energy, with nearly 60% of the EU's renewable energy coming from wood.

Europe Is Sacrificing Its Ancient Forests for Energy
Governments bet billions on burning old growth timber for green power and call it clean.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... llets.html

Ancient Forests in Europe for cheap energy
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Would the perception of an animal spirit make a difference? Would it matter if so called 'Mother Trees' have a special spiritual and philosophical relation on a forest level, as professor Suzanne Simard discovered?

Professor Suzanne Simard
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Her website: https://mothertreeproject.org/

Albert Einstein once said: "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.".

The admin that I cited, mentioned once that she would never hurt an ant when she is consciously aware of them:

The situation may be like humans and ants. If ants are not being invasive, most people don't wish them harm, and will avoid stepping on them (if convenient haha). I sometimes leave out my breadboard for them to finish the fine cleaning work. So we feel benevolently towards them (if they don't sin!) but we ultimately don't care if, say, one ant kills another*.

* Unless the killing is shown in close-up on YouTube, in which case much heartbreak will follow

This is a great example: why a difference?

A call-to-action by someone who takes it up for old growth forests in USA may give an insight of what is at stake:

[value]

Philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein ended his book Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus with the proposition "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent" which means that there are limits to what can be expressed through language, and that 'some aspects' are beyond the scope of language.

Wittgenstein: "The limits of my language mean the limits of my world.".

The book ☯ Tao Te Ching by Chinese philosopher Laozi (Lao Tzu) was written as a poem to unlock philosophical insights into a concept that cannot be spoken of. The book starts with the following:

"The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal Name."

What is the meaning of an insight that language would attempt to unlock (an insight into the origin and purpose of existence itself) when the insight that it unlocks cannot be said?

User thrasymachus mentioned the following.

Respect [for animals] (and ants) is metaphysically demanded in the face of the Other. Levinas is telling us, and he certainly helped me understand with real clarity, that this world is a metaphysical "place" and that our relations with Others is "first philosophy."

I think Jean luc Marion is right regarding what is "there" that defies assimilation into the representative "totality" (Levinas borrows this from Heidegger) that holds a grip on our existence implicitly, with every spontaneous thought of engagement. Marion asks, what is there, then, that is there, that "overflows"--there is a thesis here, constructed by Sartre, see his Nausea and the Chestnut tree, that tries to illustrate this "radical contingency" of existence-- representation? Wittgenstein calls for silence. So does Heidegger. Marion writes:

... in passing from Wittgenstein to Heidegger, in speaking from the starting point of philosophy (or almost) and not from that of logic (or almost): “Someone who has experienced theology in his own roots, both the theology of the Christian faith and that of philosophy, would today rather remain silent about God [von Gott zu schweigen] when he is speaking in the realm of thinking.”

This is a major argument in this French theological turn, so called. It plays off of Husserl's epoche, which reduces the world to it pure presence(s). The "realm of thinking" does not permit this. The question is, what does this Wittgenstienian "silence" (Heidegger called it the Nothing and the anxiety of taking thought to its death, its terminal point of meaningful application) actually "say"? What is intimated at this precipice of "authenticity" in which one has ascended, in the reduction (epoche) to a great height where all that is average and familiar has fallen away?

Robert Pirsig argued the following in topic Logic is it's own fallacy..

"Not everything can and should be defined, some things lie outside of our scope; which is what this feed is about. We cannot grasp all things with the logic and other tools which we presently hold. "

Robert Pirsig dedicated his life to exploring the concept of Quality, emphasizing that language acts as a barrier that must be transcended to truly grasp Quality.

When it concerns the paranormal, that 'Quality' scope posed by Robert Pirsig should be seen from the opposite perspective as something that must be tinier or less meaningful than whatever entails existence or 'the real world', as if 'more' (as in more meaningful) than existence is possible.

It would be difficult to convey a 'higher meaning' beyond existence, because one has no 'empirical ground' to do so. But people who succeed in that would perform within the scope of what is called paranormal and this explains that people often develop complex emotional experiential mechanisms to mentally access that scope, such as the belief that one is gifted.

Pirsig's philosophy, known as the Metaphysics of Quality, posits that Quality is a fundamental force in the universe that underpins everything from atoms to animals, driving evolution. He believed that Quality is beyond rigid definitions and can only be understood through intuition and direct experience, rather than through traditional philosophical reasoning. Pirsig's work challenges the conventional dichotomy between subject and object, which is addressed in topic Subjective/objective dichotomy.

From a philosophical perspective, parapsychology may provide a lead for progress in the exploration of the scope 'beyond existence', as prophetized by Albert Einstein:

Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.

Within Western philosophy, the realm beyond space has traditionally been considered a realm beyond physics — the plane of God’s existence in Christian theology.

In the early eighteenth century, the "∞ infinite monads" of philosopher Gottfried Leibniz — which he imagined to be the primitive elements of the universe — existed, like God, outside space and time. His theory was a step toward emergent space-time, but it was still metaphysical, with only a vague connection to the world of concrete things.

[value]

If it was real, folks would be making a killing in Las Vegas, not hanging out in labs and doing séances.

In my opinion, you are unjustly confusing the meaning of the real with the meaning of the scope of the paranormal.

It is like the idea of omnipotence and omni-benevolence when considering that the concept "God" should be perceived from the perspective of 'the real', as astrophysics student Astro Cat was doing some time back.

Omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence
Or ... what philosophically happens when one applies the idea of God to 'the real'? The pursuit of an atheist astrophysics student when confronted with ideas of religious people and 'the problem of Evil'.

My question to her (unanswered): how can (the philosophical) God be a being?

The absurdness of the ideas of omnipotence and omni-benevolence derived from the implications of the paranormal scope mixed with 'the real', do not disprove the relevance of the philosophical concept God or 'the Why question' of the cosmos, in my opinion.

Principled negligence is simply irresponsible in my opinion.

Today, humanity is facing the evolution of AI and its theories and ideas about reality and consciousness may become crucial for survival.

I personally never had an interest in paranormal matters and neither the field scientific psychology, because I have seen people being able to change their mindset from the worst to the best with a figurative 'snip' of the fingers. Things are not always as they appear and can change or be perceived differently from diverse perspectives, and any attempt to 'fixate' psychological matters on behalf of humanity's intellectual advancement could have adverse effects in time, making any qualitative path in that field a highly complex and difficult one, in my opinion.

I admire the work of philosophers such as William James greatly, who consciously and on purpose left some fundamental questions 'unanswered' and showed that the whole field of psychology is operating independently of those fundamental questions, despite as a field being able to keep touch with any potential philosophical theory.

What I am interested in however, (or should), is correct philosophical progress for theories of consciousness.

I have simply been making an attempt to make it useful for philosophy.

As a reminder:

(2024) AI consciousness: scientists say we urgently need answers
Could artificial intelligence (AI) systems become conscious? A trio of consciousness scientists say that, at the moment, no one knows — and they are expressing concern about the lack of inquiry into the question.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-04047-6

[LuckyR]

If it was real, folks would be making a killing in Las Vegas, not hanging out in labs and doing séances.

In my opinion, you are unjustly confusing the meaning of the real with the meaning of the scope of the paranormal.

It is like the idea of omnipotence and omni-benevolence when considering that the concept "God" should be perceived from the perspective of 'the real', as astrophysics student Astro Cat was doing some time back.

Omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence
Or ... what philosophically happens when one applies the idea of God to 'the real'? The pursuit of an atheist astrophysics student when confronted with ideas of religious people and 'the problem of Evil'.

My question to her (unanswered): how can (the philosophical) God be a being?

The absurdness of the ideas of omnipotence and omni-benevolence derived from the implications of the paranormal scope mixed with 'the real', do not disprove the relevance of the philosophical concept God or 'the Why question' of the cosmos, in my opinion.

Principled negligence is simply irresponsible in my opinion.

Today, humanity is facing the evolution of AI and its theories and ideas about reality and consciousness may become crucial for survival.

I personally never had an interest in paranormal matters and neither the field scientific psychology, because I have seen people being able to change their mindset from the worst to the best with a figurative 'snip' of the fingers. Things are not always as they appear and can change or be perceived differently from diverse perspectives, and any attempt to 'fixate' psychological matters on behalf of humanity's intellectual advancement could have adverse effects in time, making any qualitative path in that field a highly complex and difficult one, in my opinion.

I admire the work of philosophers such as William James greatly, who consciously and on purpose left some fundamental questions 'unanswered' and showed that the whole field of psychology is operating independently of those fundamental questions, despite as a field being able to keep touch with any potential philosophical theory.

What I am interested in however, (or should), is correct philosophical progress for theories of consciousness.

I have simply been making an attempt to make it useful for philosophy.

As a reminder:

(2024) AI consciousness: scientists say we urgently need answers
Could artificial intelligence (AI) systems become conscious? A trio of consciousness scientists say that, at the moment, no one knows — and they are expressing concern about the lack of inquiry into the question.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-04047-6

Oh, I have no problem declaring the paranormal as inter-subjectively real just as gods are inter-subjectively real.

In fact, that would be my preference (to keep the objectively real analysis out of it).

[value]

When it would be established that the paranormal scope is not objective, that does not imply in my opinion that it is to be tossed on the heap of 'inter-subjective' and its corresponding 'fable land'.

As with the concept God, the 'Why' question of the cosmos isn't inter-subjective, in my opinion. It concerns a philosophical context that 'transcends the subjective/objective dichotomy'. What it is about cannot be 'Said', but in the same time philosophy can make a case for it in the context of the 'Saying'.

Emmanuel Levinas addressed this in The Two Aspects of Language: The Saying and the Said in his work "Otherwise Than Being".

The idea: "Otherwise Than Being"... The philosophical progress in that area doesn't concern the objective world but isn't inter-subjective either. Thus what is it? Just some philosophical gibberish?

Heidegger once claimed that after a thorough examination of Western philosophy and thinking that one question was never asked: 'the question of Being'.

The question was never asked in 1964... Why?

It is easy to neglect the question. A user on this forum once responded with the following:

First, why would "what causes reality to exist" be necessary for knowing whether there is reality? (Keeping in mind that by "reality" here we're referring to the objective world.)

...

For any given initial existent, either it "spontaneously appeared" or it always existed. Those are the only two options, and they're both counterintuitive. Nevertheless, there's no other choice.

Logical options. Either we're exhausting the logical possibilities or we're not. Again, if you can think of a third option, that's great, but you'd need to present what the third option would be.

Making a philosophical case for the 'Why' question and 'beyond existence' is evidently hard, to such an extent that advanced philosophical endeavours in that area are quickly forgotten and didn't manifest cultural understanding.

An example is Robert Pirsig's dedication to foster cultural change in that regard, as author of the most sold philosophy book ever (5 million copies), who in retro-perspective complained that he is treated badly by academic philosophers for his attempt to make a case for his concept Quality (beyond existence).

(Robert Pirsig) is disappointed that his books have not had more mainstream attention. 'Most academic philosophers ignore it, or badmouth it quietly, and I wondered why that was. I suspect it may have something to do with my insistence that "quality" can not be defined,' he says." viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18771

When a philosophical case can be made for the scope beyond existence, and when paranormal matters might be real in its own sense. What purpose might it serve for life and beyond?

Principled rejection and negligence is irresponsible in my opinion.

When parapsychologist Courtney Brown used coordinated paranormal Remote Viewing to explore the cosmos for alien life, it caused commotion at his University.

The Brown affair "bring(s) into question whether Emory has any high scientific standards".

The "Courtney Brown affair" at Emory University
https://www.emory.edu/EMORY_REPORT/erar ... erson.html

A scientific article of Courtney Brown is Probing Well Beyond the Bounds of Conventional Wisdom (1997). He is also author of the book Cosmic Explorers: Scientific Remote Viewing of Extraterrestrial Life.

Cosmic Explorers: Scientific Remote Viewing of Extraterrestrial Life
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The Possible States Theory shows that the parapsychology related work and claims of Courtney Brown could be plausible.

(2012) Possible States Theory and exploration of the Cosmos
Possible States Theory allows a competent observer to participate in possible states interactions that are unconstrained by time, distance or conservation laws. The technique of coordinate remote viewing was used in a study of technologically advanced alien life forms.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9212025187

"Ordinary measurement techniques are bound by time and space, but Courtney Brown claims that scientific remote viewing can overcome these problems." https://www.jstor.org/stable/2111782

A director of a CIA program at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) in Menlo Park, California said the following:

In my experience and according to most other researchers, it appears that an experienced psychic can answer any question that has an answer. I cannot wait to see what the future holds when we fully open the doors of our perception! It is time to accept the gift of psychic abilities. The hardware is fine; it’s the software that must be upgraded—and quickly.

This could be of high value for philosophy. There are philosophical theories that propose a cosmic mind and that scientific breakthroughs originate from a cosmic mind.

History has many incidents of simultaneous discoveries, with as an example Leibniz and Newton independently discovering calculus, and another potential example being the Cambrian Explosion, a period of the early earth ~530 million years ago in which all the major animal groups first appear as fossils. They appear suddenly, fully-formed, and functional, and the older rock layers below them contain no ancestors.

The Scientific “Taboo” Against Parapsychology
"There is a taboo against investigating parapsychology, almost complete lack of funding, and professional and personal attacks (Cardeña, 201)."
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 00017/full

Suppression of research in related fields is simply irresponsible in my opinion, especially with the emergence of AI and its implications for ideas about consciousness.

[KELVIN KAY 2]

We are only just coming to terms with the spies. It has always been there will always exist. In few years from now , we will be preview to some information of what is happening to us right now. And we would be surprised that we didn't know.