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[Fried Egg]

Do you believe that people can/do have an innate sense of gender (i.e. sense of being male or female) that may be in contrast to the physical sex that we happen to be born with?

By innate I mean something that does not arise from experience / social conditioning.

Certainly it seems undeniably true that some people do feel that their physical sex is in contrast to their internal gender identity (sometimes referred to as "gender dysphoria") but that leaves open the question as to whether this arose because of an innate or acquired sense of gender. That also is quite apart from the question of what (and if) something should be done about it.

Personally, I do not feel that I have an innate sense of my gender. I know I am a male because of what everyone has always told me I am and what I know of human biology. I do not understand how my sense of my own gender could be any more than what I have been taught to believe but I accept that others might feel differently.

And does it even matter? However our sense of gender arises, would it make any difference to how we view/treat people with gender dysphoria? Personally I don't think so. But when I first learned about the concept of an innate sense of gender I was intrigued because it was not something I was aware of in myself.

[Lagayascienza]

Do you believe that people can/do have an innate sense of gender (i.e. sense of being male or female) that may be in contrast to the physical sex that we happen to be born with?

By innate I mean something that does not arise from experience / social conditioning.

Certainly it seems undeniably true that some people do feel that their physical sex is in contrast to their internal gender identity (sometimes referred to as "gender dysphoria") but that leaves open the question as to whether this arose because of an innate or acquired sense of gender. That also is quite apart from the question of what (and if) something should be done about it.

Personally, I do not feel that I have an innate sense of my gender. I know I am a male because of what everyone has always told me I am and what I know of human biology. I do not understand how my sense of my own gender could be any more than what I have been taught to believe but I accept that others might feel differently.

And does it even matter? However our sense of gender arises, would it make any difference to how we view/treat people with gender dysphoria? Personally I don't think so. But when I first learned about the concept of an innate sense of gender I was intrigued because it was not something I was aware of in myself.

I think it could matter.

Whilst children are usually born with either male or female genitalia, gonads and chromosomes, some are born “intersex” and have both male and female organs and/or chromosomes. In the past, (much less so today) this was often dealt with surgically when the children were babies, but not always; in which case the child was usually raised as male or female. However, most youngsters with gender dysphoria are not intersex but have straight-forward male or female reproductive anatomy and chromosomes.

It’s true that, to some extent, boys are taught to behave as their society expects boys to behave and girls are taught to behave as their society expects girls to behave. But there are always girls who are a bit more rough-and-tumble and boys who are a bit gentler that others. This is all entirely normal. But there is a small percentage of kids who have clear-cut male or female reproductive anatomy and chromosomes but who feel that they are the wrong gender, as if a mistake has been made and they somehow got the wrong body. Parents can try to force children to conform to their physical birth sex, but that can be harmful psychologically for the child. The best that can be done is to give the young person time. There is a chance that the dysphoria will resolve. If it does not, then, parents should let them be and, when the young person is mature enough, they can make an informed decision themselves about whether to undergo gender reassignment with hormones and, perhaps, surgery.

Sexuality and gender in humans is multifaceted and fairly fluid. Trying to enforce a gender or sexuality that goes against a young person’s nature, against what they feel themselves to be, can cause severe problems for all concerned. Gender dysphoria is probably a bit like homosexuality in that people don’t choose to be dysphoric or gay. Why would they, given all the crap they have to put up with because of their dysphoria or sexuality. But they are stuck with it. Most male and female gay people are happy with their actual gender. They are just attracted to others of the same gender. It is a perfectly normal variation in human sexuality which has biological underpinnings. I suspect that gender dysphoria has a similar biological basis and, therefore, trying to force people out of it how they see themselves would be as pointless as trying to make a straight person gay or a gay person straight. Better to let people be comfortable with themselves and support them in how hey see themselves. Afterall, it's their bodies and their lives.

[Fried Egg]

Gender dysphoria is probably a bit like homosexuality in that people don’t choose to be dysphoric or gay.

Is it though? This is, I think, central to my question here. I agree that sexuality is innate. From a personal perspective, I have long been aware of my sexuality and it is something that I feel comes from within and is not something I've learned to have or acquired from life's experiences. But as I said before, I do not feel this about my gender. My sense of gender comes entirely from what I've been told and learned to believe. In other words, I feel like my sexuality is innate and my gender identity is not.

That is not to say I think people choose their gender identity (or choose to be gender dysphoric). Only that I feel that it is somehow acquired by one's experiences. However, I wondered whether it actually matters either way and you said that perhaps it does without making it clear (to me at least) why.

I certainly would not advocate forcing people to adhere to gender identities that match their physical sex. Indeed, I think that in most western countries we have never been more liberated from gender stereotypes and free to live our lives as we so please. I believe this to be a good thing whether or not gender identities are innate.

[Lagayascienza]

Sorry if I misunderstood/misconstrued your question, Fried Egg. You were in fact asking whether gender identity is innate or learned, right? Well, I'd guess it's the former - there is probably an important innate component. Like you, I never had the feeling that I could choose my gender identify or that it was leaned. I always just knew I was a boy and comfortable with it. But, all through history there have been "lady-boys". They are physically male but don't feel they should be. I doubt they learned to feel this way - their parents would have been confused and wanted the to live as their birth sex, and probably tried to change them, and were probably unsuccessfully. So it's most likely innate.

[Lagayascienza]

I think I got is ass-about again. Sorry about that. You say that'

"My sense of gender comes entirely from what I've been told and learned to believe. In other words, I feel like my sexuality is innate and my gender identity is not."

I find that interesting. I wonder if others feel that they had to learn their gender. It seems quite remarkable to me. I just always knew I was a boy. I didn't need to learn it or have it reinforced. But, as I mentioned human gender and sexuality, and human brains are very plastic when were young so maybe some kids do need to learn, or have their genders reinforced. But I think for a truly gender dysphoric person no amount of reinforcement is likely to succeed.

[Fried Egg]

I think I got is ass-about again. Sorry about that. You say that'

"My sense of gender comes entirely from what I've been told and learned to believe. In other words, I feel like my sexuality is innate and my gender identity is not."

I find that interesting. I wonder if others feel that they had to learn their gender. It seems quite remarkable to me. I just always knew I was a boy. I didn't need to learn it or have it reinforced. But, as I mentioned human gender and sexuality, and human brains are very plastic when were young so maybe some kids do need to learn, or have their genders reinforced. But I think for a truly gender dysphoric person no amount of reinforcement is likely to succeed.

When I say that I had to learn that I was male I mean that I have no internal sense of my gender (that I am aware of). I still don't. I just accept that I am a male as that is what I have always been referred to as (and is what I have learned from biology). I don't feel that I am male besides being aware that I have the body of a male.

So for me, the idea of a gender identity quite apart from an awareness of one's physical sex is not something I can really conceive of.

[Belinda]

Do you believe that people can/do have an innate sense of gender (i.e. sense of being male or female) that may be in contrast to the physical sex that we happen to be born with?

By innate I mean something that does not arise from experience / social conditioning.

Certainly it seems undeniably true that some people do feel that their physical sex is in contrast to their internal gender identity (sometimes referred to as "gender dysphoria") but that leaves open the question as to whether this arose because of an innate or acquired sense of gender. That also is quite apart from the question of what (and if) something should be done about it.

Personally, I do not feel that I have an innate sense of my gender. I know I am a male because of what everyone has always told me I am and what I know of human biology. I do not understand how my sense of my own gender could be any more than what I have been taught to believe but I accept that others might feel differently.

And does it even matter? However our sense of gender arises, would it make any difference to how we view/treat people with gender dysphoria? Personally I don't think so. But when I first learned about the concept of an innate sense of gender I was intrigued because it was not something I was aware of in myself.

I think it could matter.

Whilst children are usually born with either male or female genitalia, gonads and chromosomes, some are born “intersex” and have both male and female organs and/or chromosomes. In the past, (much less so today) this was often dealt with surgically when the children were babies, but not always; in which case the child was usually raised as male or female. However, most youngsters with gender dysphoria are not intersex but have straight-forward male or female reproductive anatomy and chromosomes.

It’s true that, to some extent, boys are taught to behave as their society expects boys to behave and girls are taught to behave as their society expects girls to behave. But there are always girls who are a bit more rough-and-tumble and boys who are a bit gentler that others. This is all entirely normal. But there is a small percentage of kids who have clear-cut male or female reproductive anatomy and chromosomes but who feel that they are the wrong gender, as if a mistake has been made and they somehow got the wrong body. Parents can try to force children to conform to their physical birth sex, but that can be harmful psychologically for the child. The best that can be done is to give the young person time. There is a chance that the dysphoria will resolve. If it does not, then, parents should let them be and, when the young person is mature enough, they can make an informed decision themselves about whether to undergo gender reassignment with hormones and, perhaps, surgery.

Sexuality and gender in humans is multifaceted and fairly fluid. Trying to enforce a gender or sexuality that goes against a young person’s nature, against what they feel themselves to be, can cause severe problems for all concerned. Gender dysphoria is probably a bit like homosexuality in that people don’t choose to be dysphoric or gay. Why would they, given all the crap they have to put up with because of their dysphoria or sexuality. But they are stuck with it. Most male and female gay people are happy with their actual gender. They are just attracted to others of the same gender. It is a perfectly normal variation in human sexuality which has biological underpinnings. I suspect that gender dysphoria has a similar biological basis and, therefore, trying to force people out of it how they see themselves would be as pointless as trying to make a straight person gay or a gay person straight. Better to let people be comfortable with themselves and support them in how hey see themselves. Afterall, it's their bodies and their lives.

I agree with Lagayscienza. I do wonder though at which feminine traits are chosen by male people who are dissatisfied by their appearance. An individual can be a pretty looking boy and also be a pretty looking girl but why make a fuss about one's right e.g. to wear a lot of make up or a skirt? After all, in the world of work everyone must project a certain image that will not necessarily be the image one would choose.

[Pattern-chaser]

So for me, the idea of a gender identity quite apart from an awareness of one's physical sex is not something I can really conceive of.

I'm *definitely* not an expert, but I think there's a perspective on gender that isn't clear here. Doesn't our gender describe what kind of people we are physically/sexually attracted-to? It's not all about that, of course, but isn't that a central theme of gender?

[Sculptor1]

Do you believe that people can/do have an innate sense of gender (i.e. sense of being male or female) that may be in contrast to the physical sex that we happen to be born with?

By innate I mean something that does not arise from experience / social conditioning.

Certainly it seems undeniably true that some people do feel that their physical sex is in contrast to their internal gender identity (sometimes referred to as "gender dysphoria") but that leaves open the question as to whether this arose because of an innate or acquired sense of gender. That also is quite apart from the question of what (and if) something should be done about it.

Personally, I do not feel that I have an innate sense of my gender. I know I am a male because of what everyone has always told me I am and what I know of human biology. I do not understand how my sense of my own gender could be any more than what I have been taught to believe but I accept that others might feel differently.

And does it even matter? However our sense of gender arises, would it make any difference to how we view/treat people with gender dysphoria? Personally I don't think so. But when I first learned about the concept of an innate sense of gender I was intrigued because it was not something I was aware of in myself.

THis is a no brainer.
Although supressed in Western culture, the idea that there is a disconnect between the physical and the innate sense of gender identity is coomon in most cultures.
At this point I would shoe images of "female" statues from ancient Greece and Rome with penises; instances in North American "indian" culture of people who stood between genders. Dig deep enough and you will find more.
Since it is outside the norm we tend to name it as a disease or disorder "dysphoria". If this is not "innate" then what is it? Why does a child feel they are in the wrong body. And for "normals" what is it the enforcesa deep desire of the opposite sex, and as a child a tendancy to chose gender specific toys and activities?
Can it be learning? No. IN the 1960s there was a move to deliberately redirect children to opposing gender norms. Girls were given toy cars,; boys dolls. Simply enough they were unable to break the chain of gender determinism.
So it is no surprise that when a trans child expresses a problem with their assigned gender that problem is real, not some childish whim.

The clincher is a simple experiement conducted with apes. A range of toys were left for the young apes to investigate. This was in a totally natural setting - not a zoo or park. The results were bizarre and unexpected. Female apes chose dolls as a preference, whilst make apes chose trucks, and cars. THe surprising thing is that cars and trucks have no cultural meaning to them. The hard angles, moving parts and colours were enough to attract the maleness in the ape babies, whilst the soft, rounded, forms and the fact perhaps the fact that the dolls were attracting a nurture response.
You can do the same thing with human babies. Put a boy in a pretty pink dress and try to get them insterested in dolls, it won't work.

Now what about gays and trans? It's clear that maleness and femaleness is not equally distributed amongst us. SOme women make bad mothers and refuse to have children, whilst some men can make better parents than their wifes. Some men weak; some women strong.
So why would we be surprised that the elements of gender such as sexual attrtaction(also, nurturing, agression, wanting pretty things, dressing in certain ways..etc) are not always distributed equally or prescriptively?
But the point is they are no less real.
When I was 12-13 I suddenly was obsessed with naked women. I did not chose this. It was innate. It would not matter were I male of female - the obsession was not a choice.

[Lagayascienza]

I think that's right, Sculptor!. What we are born with is what we get. If you had been born a girl instead of a boy, and if, when you were 12-13, you had felt the same attraction to naked women, and zero attraction to boys, in what sense could you be said to have chosen this? In what sense would it have been your fault? In what sense should it be seen as aberrant?

I knew from earliest puberty what gender I was, and I knew what gender I was attracted to, and nothing short of a brain transplant could have altered my sense of gender or the sex to which I was attracted. It is innate. Gender dysphoria is likely the same. Gender is not leaned. A child is born and develops with an innate sense of what gender they feel themselves to be. If this conflicts with their actual birth sex, we get dysphoria. It is not a "lifestyle choice". As with homosexuality, who would want to have to cope with all the negative consequences if it were a simple matter of deciding to be otherwise?

None of this is anything new. Variation in sexuality/gender identity has always been with us. And it was generally accepted until the Abrahamic religions began instilling illogical guilt into us about it, and prescribing punishment for it. Punishing It makes no more sense than punishing people for being born with the wrong colored skin or being too short. But Abrahamic religions seem impervious to common sense.

[LuckyR]

Do you believe that people can/do have an innate sense of gender (i.e. sense of being male or female) that may be in contrast to the physical sex that we happen to be born with?

By innate I mean something that does not arise from experience / social conditioning.

Certainly it seems undeniably true that some people do feel that their physical sex is in contrast to their internal gender identity (sometimes referred to as "gender dysphoria") but that leaves open the question as to whether this arose because of an innate or acquired sense of gender. That also is quite apart from the question of what (and if) something should be done about it.

Personally, I do not feel that I have an innate sense of my gender. I know I am a male because of what everyone has always told me I am and what I know of human biology. I do not understand how my sense of my own gender could be any more than what I have been taught to believe but I accept that others might feel differently.

And does it even matter? However our sense of gender arises, would it make any difference to how we view/treat people with gender dysphoria? Personally I don't think so. But when I first learned about the concept of an innate sense of gender I was intrigued because it was not something I was aware of in myself.

Yes and no. We all have an innate sense of self. How we categorize this sense of self, ie label it, is in the context of societal norms (which are obviously external).

Add to the mix the issue of altering one's sense of self due to the external popularity of certain social trends and you end up with what has been observed. Namely that a small percentage of individuals have always had gender dysphoria (innate) and currently there is an explosion of it (the previously observed small percentage plus additional folks who are subconsciously influenced by the trendiness of transgenderism).

[Fried Egg]

So for me, the idea of a gender identity quite apart from an awareness of one's physical sex is not something I can really conceive of.

I'm *definitely* not an expert, but I think there's a perspective on gender that isn't clear here. Doesn't our gender describe what kind of people we are physically/sexually attracted-to? It's not all about that, of course, but isn't that a central theme of gender?

Not as I understand it. Gender is out sense of whether we're male of female. Not to be confused with our sexuality which is whom we are attracted to.

THis is a no brainer.
Although supressed in Western culture, the idea that there is a disconnect between the physical and the innate sense of gender identity is coomon in most cultures.
At this point I would shoe images of "female" statues from ancient Greece and Rome with penises; instances in North American "indian" culture of people who stood between genders. Dig deep enough and you will find more.
Since it is outside the norm we tend to name it as a disease or disorder "dysphoria". If this is not "innate" then what is it? Why does a child feel they are in the wrong body. And for "normals" what is it the enforcesa deep desire of the opposite sex, and as a child a tendancy to chose gender specific toys and activities?
Can it be learning? No. IN the 1960s there was a move to deliberately redirect children to opposing gender norms. Girls were given toy cars,; boys dolls. Simply enough they were unable to break the chain of gender determinism.
So it is no surprise that when a trans child expresses a problem with their assigned gender that problem is real, not some childish whim.

I'm not disputing the existence of gender norms. But that is not the same as saying one who does not exhibit gender norms must be trans. There are many examples of people who do exhibit non gender typical behaviours but do not believe they are in the wrong body. Likewise, there are people who do not exhibit a-typical gender norms but do regard themselves as being in the wrong body.

Also, because something is learned, acquired through experience, it does not make it less "real". Because someone acquired something through life's experiences does not make it less real.

I knew from earliest puberty what gender I was, and I knew what gender I was attracted to, and nothing short of a brain transplant could have altered my sense of gender or the sex to which I was attracted. It is innate. Gender dysphoria is likely the same. Gender is not leaned. A child is born and develops with an innate sense of what gender they feel themselves to be. If this conflicts with their actual birth sex, we get dysphoria. It is not a "lifestyle choice".

I feel like there is a middle ground between something being innate and a "lifestyle choice". People can be socially conditioned to believe something that they didn't consciously choose.

That said, I'm quite puzzled by the apparent need to conflate sexuality with gender identity. Certainly they can seem quite different. One can fancy women or men and that can be quite separate from one's sense of one's own gender. Also, gender identity seems to be quite distinct from how closely one's behaviour corresponds with gender norms. Thus, I do not really know what it is. This stands in stark contrast with my sense of sexuality that is quite clear to me.

[Sculptor1]

So for me, the idea of a gender identity quite apart from an awareness of one's physical sex is not something I can really conceive of.

I'm *definitely* not an expert, but I think there's a perspective on gender that isn't clear here. Doesn't our gender describe what kind of people we are physically/sexually attracted-to? It's not all about that, of course, but isn't that a central theme of gender?

Not as I understand it. Gender is out sense of whether we're male of female. Not to be confused with our sexuality which is whom we are attracted to.

THis is a no brainer.
Although supressed in Western culture, the idea that there is a disconnect between the physical and the innate sense of gender identity is coomon in most cultures.
At this point I would shoe images of "female" statues from ancient Greece and Rome with penises; instances in North American "indian" culture of people who stood between genders. Dig deep enough and you will find more.
Since it is outside the norm we tend to name it as a disease or disorder "dysphoria". If this is not "innate" then what is it? Why does a child feel they are in the wrong body. And for "normals" what is it the enforcesa deep desire of the opposite sex, and as a child a tendancy to chose gender specific toys and activities?
Can it be learning? No. IN the 1960s there was a move to deliberately redirect children to opposing gender norms. Girls were given toy cars,; boys dolls. Simply enough they were unable to break the chain of gender determinism.
So it is no surprise that when a trans child expresses a problem with their assigned gender that problem is real, not some childish whim.

I'm not disputing the existence of gender norms. But that is not the same as saying one who does not exhibit gender norms must be trans. There are many examples of people who do exhibit non gender typical behaviours but do not believe they are in the wrong body. Likewise, there are people who do not exhibit a-typical gender norms but do regard themselves as being in the wrong body.

Also, because something is learned, acquired through experience, it does not make it less "real". Because someone acquired something through life's experiences does not make it less real.

I knew from earliest puberty what gender I was, and I knew what gender I was attracted to, and nothing short of a brain transplant could have altered my sense of gender or the sex to which I was attracted. It is innate. Gender dysphoria is likely the same. Gender is not leaned. A child is born and develops with an innate sense of what gender they feel themselves to be. If this conflicts with their actual birth sex, we get dysphoria. It is not a "lifestyle choice".

I feel like there is a middle ground between something being innate and a "lifestyle choice". People can be socially conditioned to believe something that they didn't consciously choose.

That said, I'm quite puzzled by the apparent need to conflate sexuality with gender identity. Certainly they can seem quite different. One can fancy women or men and that can be quite separate from one's sense of one's own gender. Also, gender identity seems to be quite distinct from how closely one's behaviour corresponds with gender norms. Thus, I do not really know what it is. This stands in stark contrast with my sense of sexuality that is quite clear to me.

The suggestion that gender is devoid of innate propensity is absurd.
WHilst I can agree that the social expression of the spectrum of gender roles and behaviours are expressed through the examples of others' begaviours, it only makes any sense if they are suggest by and build upon innate propensities.
Unless you are completely asexual, we all wake up one day in our teens thinking about some object of sexual attraction. This is wholly unbidden and unchosen.
Be honest - what is your experience in this respect?

[Fried Egg]

The suggestion that gender is devoid of innate propensity is absurd.

I did not ask whether gender itself is innate (or acquired), I asked whether our internal sense of gender is innate. In other words, our gender identity.

It certainly seems to be the case that some people feel that their gender is not congruent with their outward appearance (their physical sex). But not necessarily because they exhibit behavioural tendencies that are congruent with the behavioural norms of the opposite sex either. Or, to put it another way, some people feel that they are (or should be) a gender that is not reflected in either their physical sex, nor their behavioural propensities.

So, I agree that it is quite absurd to suggest that both people's physical sex and behavioural propensities are not innate. But I don't think it is quite so clear about people's gender identity (or internal sense of their gender).

I have also made it clear that I do not feel that I personally have a gender identity (or at least I am unaware of it). I am aware that physically I am a man and that I tend to exhibit many male typical behaviours. But that's where it stops for me. For others, apparently not. But I think it makes sense to ask the question where this gender identity comes from (if it is not a result of one's physical sex and typical behaviour).

WHilst I can agree that the social expression of the spectrum of gender roles and behaviours are expressed through the examples of others' begaviours, it only makes any sense if they are suggest by and build upon innate propensities.
Unless you are completely asexual, we all wake up one day in our teens thinking about some object of sexual attraction. This is wholly unbidden and unchosen.
Be honest - what is your experience in this respect?

I have already made it clear that I believe sexuality is innate. It is something I am aware of in myself and is clearly not a result of the fact that I am male, nor that I tend to behave (in many ways) like a typical male.

I do not see why people just assume that because sexuality is innate that gender identity must be also. Note, I said gender identity and not gender because I accept that gender is innate. Unless you think that your gender identity is simply the gender you desire to be?

[Lagayascienza]

I think I got is ass-about again. Sorry about that. You say that'

"My sense of gender comes entirely from what I've been told and learned to believe. In other words, I feel like my sexuality is innate and my gender identity is not."

I find that interesting. I wonder if others feel that they had to learn their gender. It seems quite remarkable to me. I just always knew I was a boy. I didn't need to learn it or have it reinforced. But, as I mentioned human gender and sexuality, and human brains are very plastic when were young so maybe some kids do need to learn, or have their genders reinforced. But I think for a truly gender dysphoric person no amount of reinforcement is likely to succeed.

When I say that I had to learn that I was male I mean that I have no internal sense of my gender (that I am aware of). I still don't. I just accept that I am a male as that is what I have always been referred to as (and is what I have learned from biology). I don't feel that I am male besides being aware that I have the body of a male.

So for me, the idea of a gender identity quite apart from an awareness of one's physical sex is not something I can really conceive of.

Fried Egg, maybe you are over-thinking this. One's gender identity is determined by the recognition that one is male or female. You recognise that you are male and you gender identity follows from that recognition. You know you are male. That is your gender identity. That's all there is to it.

You say that, "I don't feel that I am male besides being aware that I have the body of a male".

However., there is nothing "beside being aware that you have the body of a male". In the case of gender dysphoria there is a belief that one is the wrong gender. By you are not gender dysphoric. You believe yourself to be, and you identify here as, male. Thus you gender identity is male.

There is nothing mysterious about gender identity. It synonymous with knowing that you are male.