Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belindi]

There are international laws that Israel is breaking at this moment.

Hamas broke international laws too, although the corrupt UN denies this on a technicality. Most here seem to think it's just fine to send missiles to kill over a thousand Israeli civilians and to kidnap and tortures hundreds more. Israel should have just taken their punishment quietly and invited more because they deserve it, right? That is what you are implying.

Besides dozens of nations are breaking international laws and the corrupted UN does not care because it just wants to stop Jews. Note, that great bastion of peace, China, has been most vocal in criticising Israel. In the meantime, they invade the territorial waters of Philippines, Vietnam and others with impunity.

Then again, they made a deal with Hamas who have publicly endorsed China's genocide of Uyghurs - which, of course, is just fine and in accordance with international law, which is why the UN has stopped criticising, and even rejected debates about what's happening.

But Israel is breaking international law.

As is Hamas breaking international law - although you would argue that it's not technically international and that Israel has no right of self defence.

Yet China, Russia, Sudan, Syria, Iraq break international laws with impunity. Why are Jews always singled out, despite being a long way from the worst offenders.

Besides, International law is a joke. The UN has been infiltrated by Arab blocs, hence many of its members supporting the Hamas terrorist attack on civilians, and a dozen even taking part! And these are the people who are making the rules? Not that China and Russia have ever cared about international rules as it applies to them, only others. Russia's and China's allies don't care about the rules either, and many of them are dictatorships.

Jews are not international criminals and are not "always singled out" .The international criminal is Netanyahu. His alleged crime is genocide. Netanyahu has ,by the extent and cruelty of his reprisals, used up any excuse that his actions in Gaza are for the defence of Israel.

You constantly turn my argument on this matter back towards me which is not a viable way to defend your ,or any , argument.

International law deserves your support, not your condemnation.

[Sy Borg]

Hamas broke international laws too, although the corrupt UN denies this on a technicality. Most here seem to think it's just fine to send missiles to kill over a thousand Israeli civilians and to kidnap and tortures hundreds more. Israel should have just taken their punishment quietly and invited more because they deserve it, right? That is what you are implying.

Besides dozens of nations are breaking international laws and the corrupted UN does not care because it just wants to stop Jews. Note, that great bastion of peace, China, has been most vocal in criticising Israel. In the meantime, they invade the territorial waters of Philippines, Vietnam and others with impunity.

Then again, they made a deal with Hamas who have publicly endorsed China's genocide of Uyghurs - which, of course, is just fine and in accordance with international law, which is why the UN has stopped criticising, and even rejected debates about what's happening.

But Israel is breaking international law.

As is Hamas breaking international law - although you would argue that it's not technically international and that Israel has no right of self defence.

Yet China, Russia, Sudan, Syria, Iraq break international laws with impunity. Why are Jews always singled out, despite being a long way from the worst offenders.

Besides, International law is a joke. The UN has been infiltrated by Arab blocs, hence many of its members supporting the Hamas terrorist attack on civilians, and a dozen even taking part! And these are the people who are making the rules? Not that China and Russia have ever cared about international rules as it applies to them, only others. Russia's and China's allies don't care about the rules either, and many of them are dictatorships.

Jews are not international criminals and are not "always singled out" .The international criminal is Netanyahu. His alleged crime is genocide. Netanyahu has ,by the extent and cruelty of his reprisals, used up any excuse that his actions in Gaza are for the defence of Israel.

You constantly turn my argument on this matter back towards me which is not a viable way to defend your ,or any , argument.

International law deserves your support, not your condemnation.

You constantly ignore my argument that Israel is a long way from the worst breaker of international laws but it is BY FAR the most criticised. It is an inconvenient fact for those who implicitly believe that the UN is an unbiased player. The UN has been corrupted and can no longer be trusted. International law is pointless unless China and Russia abide by it - which they don't. Not to mention its failure to deal with the US in Iraq.

According to international law, Israel has no right to defend itself. Francesca Albanese - a prominent UN anti-Semite has made this clear that the only correct response from Israel is to simply accept being attacked and to send police in to control (get killed by) Hamas. She expects police to be used to control an opposing military!

Hamas created this disaster with their attacks. Do you think that the Hamas terrorism served the Palestinian people well? Do you think Palestinians are better off for their leaders' decisions? Do you think that Israel's retaliation was anything but inevitable? People claim that Israel's response has been disproportionate. For seventy years, Israel's retaliations have ranged from proportionate to heavy-handed and none of it worked. Now it's disproportionate.

Who could have possibly anticipated all this response? Hamas did - they relied on it. So far, the attack has gone to plan - destroying the potential accord between Israel and Saud and further isolating Israel, making a two-state solution - which Hamas strongly rejects - harder to achieve. They don't worry how many of their civilians are killed - if they did they would not have sent those missiles. Civilians are expendable pawns Hamas's game of geopolitical chess. Have they run out of hospitals and schools to use as human shields yet?

But Hamas is not dropping the bombs. Netanyahu is.

[Belindi]

But Israel is breaking international law.

As is Hamas breaking international law - although you would argue that it's not technically international and that Israel has no right of self defence.

Yet China, Russia, Sudan, Syria, Iraq break international laws with impunity. Why are Jews always singled out, despite being a long way from the worst offenders.

Besides, International law is a joke. The UN has been infiltrated by Arab blocs, hence many of its members supporting the Hamas terrorist attack on civilians, and a dozen even taking part! And these are the people who are making the rules? Not that China and Russia have ever cared about international rules as it applies to them, only others. Russia's and China's allies don't care about the rules either, and many of them are dictatorships.

Jews are not international criminals and are not "always singled out" .The international criminal is Netanyahu. His alleged crime is genocide. Netanyahu has ,by the extent and cruelty of his reprisals, used up any excuse that his actions in Gaza are for the defence of Israel.

You constantly turn my argument on this matter back towards me which is not a viable way to defend your ,or any , argument.

International law deserves your support, not your condemnation.

You constantly ignore my argument that Israel is a long way from the worst breaker of international laws but it is BY FAR the most criticised. It is an inconvenient fact for those who implicitly believe that the UN is an unbiased player. The UN has been corrupted and can no longer be trusted. International law is pointless unless China and Russia abide by it - which they don't. Not to mention its failure to deal with the US in Iraq.

According to international law, Israel has no right to defend itself. Francesca Albanese - a prominent UN anti-Semite has made this clear that the only correct response from Israel is to simply accept being attacked and to send police in to control (get killed by) Hamas. She expects police to be used to control an opposing military!

Hamas created this disaster with their attacks. Do you think that the Hamas terrorism served the Palestinian people well? Do you think Palestinians are better off for their leaders' decisions? Do you think that Israel's retaliation was anything but inevitable? People claim that Israel's response has been disproportionate. For seventy years, Israel's retaliations have ranged from proportionate to heavy-handed and none of it worked. Now it's disproportionate.

Who could have possibly anticipated all this response? Hamas did - they relied on it. So far, the attack has gone to plan - destroying the potential accord between Israel and Saud and further isolating Israel, making a two-state solution - which Hamas strongly rejects - harder to achieve. They don't worry how many of their civilians are killed - if they did they would not have sent those missiles. Civilians are expendable pawns Hamas's game of geopolitical chess. Have they run out of hospitals and schools to use as human shields yet?

But Hamas is not dropping the bombs. Netanyahu is.

Russia is not Putin; Putin is the enemy of international law not Russia. Putin kills his own people.

I think Gaza is finally bombed and starved to death which was done by Netanyahu not Hamas. Netanyahu won't accept a two state solution as he is extreme Right Wing.

[Gertie]

My own country (the UK) is right now supporting, funding, arming and directly killing Houthi people for a genocidal, appartheid Israeli government, while we watch hospitals bombed, children indiscriminately maimed and murdered, and a defenceless state being obliterated. That's my country, in my name. And the 'official opposition' is nodding along in approval. That's why I should speak up.

Any argument about the rights and wrongs of the context can be had later. Foregoing doing the right thing in one instance because you don't do the right thing in every instance makes The Perfect the enemy of The Good, and justifies never doing anything. Whatever, right now, we're watching a genocide, and my country is actively engaging in helping it happen.

If you've ever asked yourself what would I have done in Nazi Germany - but with the only peril being someone calls you a racist, or you get kicked out of a political party which supports genocide, well it makes it easy. As it happens I'd already resigned from Starmer's Labour Party, but they've still shocked me over this.

[Sy Borg]

This has nothing to do with Nazi Germany - except for the anti-Semitism. Did Jews send missiles onto the German people and kidnap and rape their civilians? When one's family was almost a victim of an attempted actual genocide, one has a different perspective.

The Israelis are trying to prevent genocide - their own. Jews were already cleansed from surrounding nations, their communities were destroyed and Jews were forced to scatter around the world. Look at the numbers of Jews in ME nations - then and now. No one has talked about that or Arabs' attempts to finish what the Nazis started. Meanwhile no Arab nation is prepared to take Palestinian refugees, nor are they interested in funding the UNRWA. As for Palestinians, their leadership publicly endorsed the Chinese genocide of Uyghurs.

Never mind who the Houthi slaughtered in gaining power to do Iran's bidding in Yemen. That's doesn't matter because Jews aren't doing it, it seems. Never mind what's happening in South Sudan or Syria. Only Jewish crimes must be prevented and punished.

Hardly anyone talks about Yemen, yet the scale of its humanitarian disaster dwarfs Palestine. Why aren't the west angry at Iran about what they have done to Yemen? (and they are backing Hezbollah and Hamas - both of them have also caused much hardship for their own people).

I hear China is stockpiling weapons. If they invade Taiwan, I guarantee there will be a less passionate response on the forum than to Israel's heavy-handed response to their own version of 9/11.

Again, even if no one is listening, it's not about Israel's crimes but the excessive focus, bordering on hateful obsession, on those while a blind eye is turned to equivalent and worse crimes.

[Lagayascienza]

Antisemitism is real. No doubt about that. Sy Borg has point out here and in other threads (rightly, I think) that the Jews have been disenfranchised, scattered, discriminated against, marginalized and generally badly treated since ancient times. And the Nazi genocide marked a profound nadir of human racist depravity. All of that is beyond question.

I find antisemitism a curious phenomenon and difficult to understand. It seems to be somehow different to other forms of racism. Perhaps partly because the concept of “race” does not seem to well characterize the Jewish people. There are back-skinned, curly-haired Jews, olive skinned Jews, blond, blue-eyed Jews... And Jewishness doesn’t seem to be especially well defined in religious terms either. For example, there are Christian Jews, and many different shades of Judaism from ultraorthodox fundamentalists to atheist Jews. Whereas there are, by definition, no atheist Muslims or atheist Christians. So, it’s hard for me to say just what Jewishness is and this makes antisemitism even harder to understand.

I am curious about the long history of antisemitism and about how widespread it has been and is still. I guess I can understand how the Roman Catholic Church's treatment of the Jews started out and how it was perpetuated in dogma and doctrine over 2000 years (what I find especially appalling is that it was not until very recently that the church disavowed it past behaviour towards the Jews). And in the time since the partition of Palestine, I guess it is not too surprising that the Palestinians and other Muslims have found reason not to be enamored of Israel. Still, these alone would not seem alone be enough to account for the long history, the degree, or the widespread nature of the persecution that the Jews have suffered. But then, maybe, at root, they do account for it. Religion makes people do crazy stuff. And vacant land is in short supply.

I am no antisemite (nor a racist of any kind) but I think it is very important in the current circumstances that we distinguish between legitimate criticism of the Israeli government on the one hand, and actual antisemitism on the other. If I say I disagree with some of what Israel is doing in Palestine under Netanyahu, that does not make me an antisemite. Whereas, if I said that I hated the Jews and criticized them just because they were Jewish, then that would be antisemitism.

I think Jews also have to be careful here. It is unfair to wave the antisemitic stick at someone just because they don’t agree with the policies and actions of the Israeli government under Netanyahu. I haven’t seen a lot of that but there has been some. I think it should also be remembered that there is a large minority of Israelis who also don’t agree with what Netanyahu is doing.

[Belindi]

This has nothing to do with Nazi Germany - except for the anti-Semitism. Did Jews send missiles onto the German people and kidnap and rape their civilians? When one's family was almost a victim of an attempted actual genocide, one has a different perspective.

The Israelis are trying to prevent genocide - their own. Jews were already cleansed from surrounding nations, their communities were destroyed and Jews were forced to scatter around the world. Look at the numbers of Jews in ME nations - then and now. No one has talked about that or Arabs' attempts to finish what the Nazis started. Meanwhile no Arab nation is prepared to take Palestinian refugees, nor are they interested in funding the UNRWA. As for Palestinians, their leadership publicly endorsed the Chinese genocide of Uyghurs.

Never mind who the Houthi slaughtered in gaining power to do Iran's bidding in Yemen. That's doesn't matter because Jews aren't doing it, it seems. Never mind what's happening in South Sudan or Syria. Only Jewish crimes must be prevented and punished.

Hardly anyone talks about Yemen, yet the scale of its humanitarian disaster dwarfs Palestine. Why aren't the west angry at Iran about what they have done to Yemen? (and they are backing Hezbollah and Hamas - both of them have also caused much hardship for their own people).

I hear China is stockpiling weapons. If they invade Taiwan, I guarantee there will be a less passionate response on the forum than to Israel's heavy-handed response to their own version of 9/11.

Again, even if no one is listening, it's not about Israel's crimes but the excessive focus, bordering on hateful obsession, on those while a blind eye is turned to equivalent and worse crimes.

Palestinian babies, young boys and girls , and hospital patients are not about to commit genocide.
International law is no "joke" nobody is laughing.International law the best instrument available to serve international peace. What else could you have?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law

[Pattern-chaser]

You constantly ignore my argument that Israel is a long way from the worst breaker of international laws but it is BY FAR the most criticised. It is an inconvenient fact for those who implicitly believe that the UN is an unbiased player. The UN has been corrupted and can no longer be trusted. International law is pointless unless China and Russia abide by it - which they don't. Not to mention its failure to deal with the US in Iraq.

According to international law, Israel has no right to defend itself. Francesca Albanese - a prominent UN anti-Semite has made this clear that the only correct response from Israel is to simply accept being attacked and to send police in to control (get killed by) Hamas. She expects police to be used to control an opposing military!

Hamas created this disaster with their attacks. Do you think that the Hamas terrorism served the Palestinian people well? Do you think Palestinians are better off for their leaders' decisions? Do you think that Israel's retaliation was anything but inevitable? People claim that Israel's response has been disproportionate. For seventy years, Israel's retaliations have ranged from proportionate to heavy-handed and none of it worked. Now it's disproportionate.

Who could have possibly anticipated all this response? Hamas did - they relied on it. So far, the attack has gone to plan - destroying the potential accord between Israel and Saud and further isolating Israel, making a two-state solution - which Hamas strongly rejects - harder to achieve. They don't worry how many of their civilians are killed - if they did they would not have sent those missiles. Civilians are expendable pawns Hamas's game of geopolitical chess. Have they run out of hospitals and schools to use as human shields yet?

Propaganda, dissemination of information — facts, arguments, rumours, half-truths, or lies — to influence public opinion. It is often conveyed through mass media.

Propaganda is the more or less systematic effort to manipulate other people’s beliefs, attitudes, or actions by means of symbols (words, gestures, banners, monuments, music, clothing, insignia, hairstyles, designs on coins and postage stamps, and so forth). Deliberateness and a relatively heavy emphasis on manipulation distinguish propaganda from casual conversation or the free and easy exchange of ideas. Propagandists have a specified goal or set of goals. To achieve these, they deliberately select facts, arguments, and displays of symbols and present them in ways they think will have the most effect. To maximize effect, they may omit or distort pertinent facts or simply lie, and they may try to divert the attention of the reactors (the people they are trying to sway) from everything but their own propaganda.

From "https: //www.britannica.com/ topic/propaganda/Signs-symbols-and-media-used-in-contemporary-propaganda" (remove spaces to follow this link).

In such an emotive topic as this, reliable and independent fact-checking is our only saviour and our only hope.

There are stories around that support my own view of this ghastly conflict, but I don't mention them here (or anywhere else) because I can't be sure they aren't pro-Palestinian (or anti-Israeli) propaganda. Israel's recent accusations over UNRWA workers aiding Hamas have not yet been substantiated, and may prove to be propaganda. We all, especially those of us who are heavily emotionally invested in this matter, need to think carefully about what we post here.

[Gertie]

For those in the UK who might find this useful, this is from Oxfam UK -

Tomorrow, your MP will vote on whether to call for a
ceasefire in Gaza and Israel.

Will you write to your MP, and share a voice message from Gaza? My colleagues in Gaza have recorded messages documenting what they’re seeing, hearing and feeling. MPs need to hear these voices, and make the right decision tomorrow as our representatives in Parliament.

CONTACT YOUR MP [the Oxfam site provides a link on how to contact your MP, I'm not allowed to post it here]

The situation in Gaza is devastating. The bombardment is relentless. Israel is now planning a full-scale military offensive in Rafah, where over a million people were forced to flee for safety. There is nowhere left for civilians to go.

This escalation of violence we are seeing is a humanitarian catastrophe, but it also represents the failure of our leaders. The UK is yet to call for an immediate and permanent ceasefire – the only humanitarian action that now matters.

MPs last debated a ceasefire in Parliament in November 2023. The majority voted against it. Since then, the death toll in Gaza has almost tripled, to over 28,000 people. This simple action will show your MP that their constituents care about this issue and make clear how you would like them to vote. It will show them that they have your support, in what could be a historic vote. We cannot stand by while civilian lives are at stake.

Will you help keep pressure on UK leaders? Ask your MP
to vote for an immediate and permanent ceasefire.
CONTACT YOUR MP
Pressure has been building in the international community. Just last week, Canada, New Zealand and Australia issued a joint statement calling for an immediate ceasefire.

Until the UK joins them in this call, it is complicit in the horrors we are seeing every day in Gaza. An immediate and permanent ceasefire is the only way to stop the death and destruction, get enough aid to those who desperately need it and ensure the safe release of hostages.

Thank you for acting in solidarity with people affected by this horrific situation.

Helen
Head of Campaign Engagement, Oxfam

[Gertie]

This has nothing to do with Nazi Germany - except for the anti-Semitism. Did Jews send missiles onto the German people and kidnap and rape their civilians? When one's family was almost a victim of an attempted actual genocide, one has a different perspective.

The Israelis are trying to prevent genocide - their own. Jews were already cleansed from surrounding nations, their communities were destroyed and Jews were forced to scatter around the world. Look at the numbers of Jews in ME nations - then and now. No one has talked about that or Arabs' attempts to finish what the Nazis started. Meanwhile no Arab nation is prepared to take Palestinian refugees, nor are they interested in funding the UNRWA. As for Palestinians, their leadership publicly endorsed the Chinese genocide of Uyghurs.

Never mind who the Houthi slaughtered in gaining power to do Iran's bidding in Yemen. That's doesn't matter because Jews aren't doing it, it seems. Never mind what's happening in South Sudan or Syria. Only Jewish crimes must be prevented and punished.

Hardly anyone talks about Yemen, yet the scale of its humanitarian disaster dwarfs Palestine. Why aren't the west angry at Iran about what they have done to Yemen? (and they are backing Hezbollah and Hamas - both of them have also caused much hardship for their own people).

I hear China is stockpiling weapons. If they invade Taiwan, I guarantee there will be a less passionate response on the forum than to Israel's heavy-handed response to their own version of 9/11.

Again, even if no one is listening, it's not about Israel's crimes but the excessive focus, bordering on hateful obsession, on those while a blind eye is turned to equivalent and worse crimes.

I understand your point about excessive focus, it's a fair one. And I'm sure there is a mix of reasons behind it, some rooted in anti-semitism. But the Israeli government's actions right now is the issue at hand. Because no matter the historical context, they are deliberately committing genocide. Right now. Not legitimate self-defence, but cruel, deliberate and indiscriminate ethnic cleansing. And MY country, on MY behalf, theoretically accountable to ME, is aiding and abetting genocide. And I can say I don't want any part of it, even attempt to sway them by doing so. It's a no-brainer to me.

If I had family in Israel or Palestine I'm sure that would sway my feelings and allegiances, I get that too. Israel is a scary place to live at the best of times, living under constant threat is no way to live, for either side, potentially exacerbated by the current apartheid. Still many Jews across the world still argue that this isn't right, or good for Israel as well as Palestine.

The best that we on the outside can do is use our influence to call for a ceasefire and try to get negotiations for a solution going, and hopefully Palestinian supporting nations put similar pressure on Hamas. Every sensible, self-interested surrounding nation wants to avoid escalation and the fall-out of the de-population of Gaza, and that's the way to do it. It's a hard, grinding, dis-heartening and frustrating approach, but compared to genocide it's incomparably better.

As for Yemen, the Saudis have been bombing them for years with weapons MY country sells them (because they have bags of money we want), contributing to devastating destruction and famine there. Something constituents in my area have previously had our MP raise in UK Parliament to no avail. We plebs can only try to influence what we can, maybe give a bit of aid and a voice to the victims. And when a terrible and horrific injustice like genocide hits the spotlight, the focus can mobilise us out our apathy, in the face of helplessness at the state of the world. Especially if we're complicit.

[Sy Borg]

This has nothing to do with Nazi Germany - except for the anti-Semitism. Did Jews send missiles onto the German people and kidnap and rape their civilians? When one's family was almost a victim of an attempted actual genocide, one has a different perspective.

The Israelis are trying to prevent genocide - their own. Jews were already cleansed from surrounding nations, their communities were destroyed and Jews were forced to scatter around the world. Look at the numbers of Jews in ME nations - then and now. No one has talked about that or Arabs' attempts to finish what the Nazis started. Meanwhile no Arab nation is prepared to take Palestinian refugees, nor are they interested in funding the UNRWA. As for Palestinians, their leadership publicly endorsed the Chinese genocide of Uyghurs.

Never mind who the Houthi slaughtered in gaining power to do Iran's bidding in Yemen. That's doesn't matter because Jews aren't doing it, it seems. Never mind what's happening in South Sudan or Syria. Only Jewish crimes must be prevented and punished.

Hardly anyone talks about Yemen, yet the scale of its humanitarian disaster dwarfs Palestine. Why aren't the west angry at Iran about what they have done to Yemen? (and they are backing Hezbollah and Hamas - both of them have also caused much hardship for their own people).

I hear China is stockpiling weapons. If they invade Taiwan, I guarantee there will be a less passionate response on the forum than to Israel's heavy-handed response to their own version of 9/11.

Again, even if no one is listening, it's not about Israel's crimes but the excessive focus, bordering on hateful obsession, on those while a blind eye is turned to equivalent and worse crimes.

I understand your point about excessive focus, it's a fair one. And I'm sure there is a mix of reasons behind it, some rooted in anti-semitism. But the Israeli government's actions right now is the issue at hand. Because no matter the historical context, they are deliberately committing genocide. Right now. Not legitimate self-defence, but cruel, deliberate and indiscriminate ethnic cleansing. And MY country, on MY behalf, theoretically accountable to ME, is aiding and abetting genocide. And I can say I don't want any part of it, even attempt to sway them by doing so. It's a no-brainer to me.

If I had family in Israel or Palestine I'm sure that would sway my feelings and allegiances, I get that too. Israel is a scary place to live at the best of times, living under constant threat is no way to live, for either side, potentially exacerbated by the current apartheid. Still many Jews across the world still argue that this isn't right, or good for Israel as well as Palestine.

The best that we on the outside can do is use our influence to call for a ceasefire and try to get negotiations for a solution going, and hopefully Palestinian supporting nations put similar pressure on Hamas. Every sensible, self-interested surrounding nation wants to avoid escalation and the fall-out of the de-population of Gaza, and that's the way to do it. It's a hard, grinding, dis-heartening and frustrating approach, but compared to genocide it's incomparably better.

As for Yemen, the Saudis have been bombing them for years with weapons MY country sells them (because they have bags of money we want), contributing to devastating destruction and famine there. Something constituents in my area have previously had our MP raise in UK Parliament to no avail. We plebs can only try to influence what we can, maybe give a bit of aid and a voice to the victims. And when a terrible and horrific injustice like genocide hits the spotlight, the focus can mobilise us out our apathy, in the face of helplessness at the state of the world. Especially if we're complicit.

Thansk for being the first person to acknowledge the disproportionate focus on Israel while ignoring the genocides in Iraq, Syria, Sudan and the Central African Republic. The fact is that we don't care about genocides about people far from us - otherwise the forum would have been ablaze with commentary on the genocides happening in Iraq, Syria, Sudan and the Central African Republic - not to mention the destruction of Uyghur culture and genocide of Tibetans.

I don't blame any of you for not caring about these. There is far too much going on in the world - endless suffering of a scale far beyond our ken.

I see no reason to prioritise the longstanding issues with Israel and Palestine, just because the media pushes it. We have already seen the high levels of anti-Semitism that has been fostered in academic circles due to a ridiculous Marxist parsing of all parties as evil oppressors and the noble oppressed, and this bias has pushed public discourse.

Meanwhile, the UN has been captured by China and petrodollars - appointing an Iran representative t be in charge of human rights - with the US's much-maligned right of veto the only thing presenting an almost complete capitulation to hostile foreign interests. We already know of many UN employees who celebrated the Hamas attacks and at least a dozen of them played an active role. I see the inordinate focus on Israel, while nothing is said about other issues, as anti-Semitic, although often the prejudice is indirect - that people are being influenced by the excellent propagaanda campaign of anti-Semites without realising it.

I don't care who's paying the bills for these wars. Whether the US and UK pay or not, anti-western apologists will still find a way to blame the west and Jews, so it makes no difference. I see no reason why western and Jewish misdeeds are something that must be urgently changed, while misdeeds by others - much worse, too - are ignored.

The US hegemony is dying and there will soon be various power centres around the world. It's akin to a society who deposes a dictator and falls into chaos and violent feudalism. I no longer automatically side with victims in the political sphere. Every time victims are freed from modern despots, things seem to decline. The Arab Spring was a disaster. South Africa's freedom from apartheid (I had been red hot for years against apartheid) has resulted in a worse standard of living for most South Africans. The deposition of Gaddaffi and Saddam were disastrous Libyans and Iraqis. The nations soon fell into sectarian violence - with hatred so intense that it turns out that only a brutal dictator could curb it.

Trouble is, dictators (like the US bossed the world over the past six decades) can't retain stability. They fall into hubris, as the US has done. History tells us that such falls tend to be followed by chaos, as competing interests jostle for control in the power vacuum. So, the US's time as (somewhat) undisputed world leader is just about done.

If the US falls far enough, Jews will lose their protection and they will once again be scattered. It's not as though, like the Palestinians, they could simply move into neighbouring countries with a similar culture. Ah, but none of Palestine's neighbours want their refugees, although they pretend to decline for noble reasons.

[Good_Egg]

I find antisemitism a curious phenomenon and difficult to understand.

There's a challenge to all us would-be philosophers, then. We who prize understanding...

Perhaps partly because the concept of “race” does not seem to well characterize the Jewish people.

Yes, that's part of it - Jewishness is race and religion and culture all wrapped together. A religion that sees its race as God's Chosen, a people set apart. And a culture that embodies that religion, so that even atheist Jews tend to retain a Jewish cultural identity and thus are influenced by the religion they reject.

Thus it seems to me that antisemitism is tied up with two things:

One is conspiracy theory. Any two people who share a cultural background will have "private" understanding - cultural references in common that they don't share with those around them. And are thus at risk of being seen by the paranoid as plotting to advance some shared private interest.

The other is that envious streak in human nature which can't stand other people who think they're in some way better than you are. "Tall poppy" syndrome. Which is why antisemitism is an issue for the Left, rather than only for scapegoating populists (who often lean Right).

So that whilst racism (in the original sense) is a type of superiority complex, antisemitism is a form of inferiority complex - a lashing-out against those suspected of being or claiming to be or trying to be better. "Think you're God's Chosen, do you ?"

I guess I can understand how the Roman Catholic Church's treatment of the Jews started out and how it was perpetuated in dogma and doctrine over 2000 years

You mean the political need for first-century Christianity to blame the crucifixion on Jews and Jewishness rather than Romans and Roman-ness ?

I think it is very important in the current circumstances that we distinguish between legitimate criticism of the Israeli government on the one hand, and actual antisemitism on the other.

I agree that it is inaccurate and unjust to accuse of antisemitism those (on these boards and elsewhere) who merely hold anti-Israeli sentiments.

[Lagayascienza]

Cheers, good_egg. The idea of antisemitism being a sort of inferiority complex makes sense. The Jews were excluded from many ways of making a living in Europe under Christianity so they got into finance and commerce and became very good at it and made money. Maybe others were jealous.

With the early church and the Roman state there was a gradually warming relationship and Christianity went on to become the official state religion. It was probably easier to put all the blame for Jesus’ death on the Jews even though it was the Romans who actually crucified him.

[Sculptor1]

"Israeli schools teach Jewish supremacism".
How about...
"Israel is currently committing genocide".
Or try this..
"Collective punishment in the cutting off of food, water and medical supplies is against international Law".

Are these antisemitic statements? Do they reflect antisemitic tropes?

[Belindi]

This has nothing to do with Nazi Germany - except for the anti-Semitism. Did Jews send missiles onto the German people and kidnap and rape their civilians? When one's family was almost a victim of an attempted actual genocide, one has a different perspective.

The Israelis are trying to prevent genocide - their own. Jews were already cleansed from surrounding nations, their communities were destroyed and Jews were forced to scatter around the world. Look at the numbers of Jews in ME nations - then and now. No one has talked about that or Arabs' attempts to finish what the Nazis started. Meanwhile no Arab nation is prepared to take Palestinian refugees, nor are they interested in funding the UNRWA. As for Palestinians, their leadership publicly endorsed the Chinese genocide of Uyghurs.

Never mind who the Houthi slaughtered in gaining power to do Iran's bidding in Yemen. That's doesn't matter because Jews aren't doing it, it seems. Never mind what's happening in South Sudan or Syria. Only Jewish crimes must be prevented and punished.

Hardly anyone talks about Yemen, yet the scale of its humanitarian disaster dwarfs Palestine. Why aren't the west angry at Iran about what they have done to Yemen? (and they are backing Hezbollah and Hamas - both of them have also caused much hardship for their own people).

I hear China is stockpiling weapons. If they invade Taiwan, I guarantee there will be a less passionate response on the forum than to Israel's heavy-handed response to their own version of 9/11.

Again, even if no one is listening, it's not about Israel's crimes but the excessive focus, bordering on hateful obsession, on those while a blind eye is turned to equivalent and worse crimes.

I understand your point about excessive focus, it's a fair one. And I'm sure there is a mix of reasons behind it, some rooted in anti-semitism. But the Israeli government's actions right now is the issue at hand. Because no matter the historical context, they are deliberately committing genocide. Right now. Not legitimate self-defence, but cruel, deliberate and indiscriminate ethnic cleansing. And MY country, on MY behalf, theoretically accountable to ME, is aiding and abetting genocide. And I can say I don't want any part of it, even attempt to sway them by doing so. It's a no-brainer to me.

If I had family in Israel or Palestine I'm sure that would sway my feelings and allegiances, I get that too. Israel is a scary place to live at the best of times, living under constant threat is no way to live, for either side, potentially exacerbated by the current apartheid. Still many Jews across the world still argue that this isn't right, or good for Israel as well as Palestine.

The best that we on the outside can do is use our influence to call for a ceasefire and try to get negotiations for a solution going, and hopefully Palestinian supporting nations put similar pressure on Hamas. Every sensible, self-interested surrounding nation wants to avoid escalation and the fall-out of the de-population of Gaza, and that's the way to do it. It's a hard, grinding, dis-heartening and frustrating approach, but compared to genocide it's incomparably better.

As for Yemen, the Saudis have been bombing them for years with weapons MY country sells them (because they have bags of money we want), contributing to devastating destruction and famine there. Something constituents in my area have previously had our MP raise in UK Parliament to no avail. We plebs can only try to influence what we can, maybe give a bit of aid and a voice to the victims. And when a terrible and horrific injustice like genocide hits the spotlight, the focus can mobilise us out our apathy, in the face of helplessness at the state of the world. Especially if we're complicit.

Thansk for being the first person to acknowledge the disproportionate focus on Israel while ignoring the genocides in Iraq, Syria, Sudan and the Central African Republic. The fact is that we don't care about genocides about people far from us - otherwise the forum would have been ablaze with commentary on the genocides happening in Iraq, Syria, Sudan and the Central African Republic - not to mention the destruction of Uyghur culture and genocide of Tibetans.

I don't blame any of you for not caring about these. There is far too much going on in the world - endless suffering of a scale far beyond our ken.

I see no reason to prioritise the longstanding issues with Israel and Palestine, just because the media pushes it. We have already seen the high levels of anti-Semitism that has been fostered in academic circles due to a ridiculous Marxist parsing of all parties as evil oppressors and the noble oppressed, and this bias has pushed public discourse.

Meanwhile, the UN has been captured by China and petrodollars - appointing an Iran representative t be in charge of human rights - with the US's much-maligned right of veto the only thing presenting an almost complete capitulation to hostile foreign interests. We already know of many UN employees who celebrated the Hamas attacks and at least a dozen of them played an active role. I see the inordinate focus on Israel, while nothing is said about other issues, as anti-Semitic, although often the prejudice is indirect - that people are being influenced by the excellent propagaanda campaign of anti-Semites without realising it.

I don't care who's paying the bills for these wars. Whether the US and UK pay or not, anti-western apologists will still find a way to blame the west and Jews, so it makes no difference. I see no reason why western and Jewish misdeeds are something that must be urgently changed, while misdeeds by others - much worse, too - are ignored.

The US hegemony is dying and there will soon be various power centres around the world. It's akin to a society who deposes a dictator and falls into chaos and violent feudalism. I no longer automatically side with victims in the political sphere. Every time victims are freed from modern despots, things seem to decline. The Arab Spring was a disaster. South Africa's freedom from apartheid (I had been red hot for years against apartheid) has resulted in a worse standard of living for most South Africans. The deposition of Gaddaffi and Saddam were disastrous Libyans and Iraqis. The nations soon fell into sectarian violence - with hatred so intense that it turns out that only a brutal dictator could curb it.

Trouble is, dictators (like the US bossed the world over the past six decades) can't retain stability. They fall into hubris, as the US has done. History tells us that such falls tend to be followed by chaos, as competing interests jostle for control in the power vacuum. So, the US's time as (somewhat) undisputed world leader is just about done.

If the US falls far enough, Jews will lose their protection and they will once again be scattered. It's not as though, like the Palestinians, they could simply move into neighbouring countries with a similar culture. Ah, but none of Palestine's neighbours want their refugees, although they pretend to decline for noble reasons.

Jews vary in their ways of being Jews. Some sorts of Jews more than others are influenced by Enlightenment values and less affected by family traditions of practice and Biblical historicity or lack of it. Muslims too vary as to whether they identity as Sunni, Shia, Whabbi, Salafi, Berelvi, Sufi and Deobandi. It seems the general difference between Islam and Judaism is the former includes profession of faith in the Muhammad myth, whereas the latter is praxis with no foundation myth,

I wonder if Sy Borg and others hold that if a people, at popular level , generally identify with a reasonable post-Enlightenment religion that people would be a lot less likely than other religionists of whatever sect to be aggressive.
(As usual religious mystics seem to be extraordinarily peaceful regardless of sect.)