Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belindi]

There are undoubtedly other injustices in the world. However those don't excuse the injustice of Netanyahu and co. killing the feebler demographic that is Palestinian civilians.

I myself have been part of "the over focus on Palestine".That fact does not render my point of view illegitimate , unjust, or unreasonable; to claim that it does so is ad hominem.
The use of passive voice in your last paragraph does not conceal the ad hominem in your argument.

[Sy Borg]

There are undoubtedly other injustices in the world. However those don't excuse the injustice of Netanyahu and co. killing the feebler demographic that is Palestinian civilians.

I myself have been part of "the over focus on Palestine".That fact does not render my point of view illegitimate , unjust, or unreasonable; to claim that it does so is ad hominem.
The use of passive voice in your last paragraph does not conceal the ad hominem in your argument.

It might not render your view illegitimate - there are many, many leaders in this world worthy of judgement, including Netanyahu.

However, it is definitely and unequivocally anti-semitic to be so red hot against Israel while never at any stage showing even the slightest hint of concern for the many other places where people are being killed and mistreated. The only difference between this and other hotspots is that Jews are doing it. There is no other difference, except that this issue is not as bad as some of the others, which have far higher death/torture/homelessness tolls.

But hardly anyone cares about them ...

I note that the Palestinian leadership gave China its blessing regarding the genocide of Uyghurs.

https://www.voanews.com/a/palestinian-l ... 50767.html

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas recently visited Beijing, where he met with Chinese leader Xi Jinping and expressed support for China's treatment of Muslim Uyghurs in Xinjiang. His endorsement of China's policies and denial of the mistreatment of Muslims in Xinjiang drew criticism from politicians and rights activists.

During their meeting Wednesday, in which Abbas sought economic aid, he and Xi issued a joint statement in which Abbas endorsed China's domestic and foreign policies while dismissing the human rights concerns in Xinjiang as Western concepts.

The United States and some other countries have designated China's treatment of Uyghurs and other Muslims in Xinjiang as genocide, and the U.N. human rights office has stated that China's actions in Xinjiang may constitute crimes against humanity.

China denies these allegations and considers them fabrications by anti-China forces.

Abbas said in the joint statement that China's actions in Xinjiang have "nothing to do with human rights" and are aimed at countering extremism and terrorism. He also emphasized Palestinian opposition to using the Xinjiang issue to interfere in China's internal affairs.

Here's a new spin on the situation: Israel's actions in Gaza have "nothing to do with human rights" and are aimed at countering extremism and terrorism. He also emphasized opposition to using the Palestine issue to interfere in Israel's internal affairs.

While we argue about right and wrong, the actual protagonists don't give a damn, just as long as they collect the $$ and enjoy a luxurious lifestyle.

[Sy Borg]

BTW, I am not pro-Israel or pro-Jew. I don't care about them. Neither of them. Anyone involved in a seventy-year war cannot claim to be guiltless. It logically takes two absolute idiots to fight for that long, without ever finding a compromise to improve the situation for both sides.

What annoys me is the hugely disproportionate focus on this one conflict at the expense of many others, some being far worse. Consider what's happening in Nigeria with the Boko Haram. They deliberately target women and girls too. But no one cares because no one knows, because oppressed Nigerian Christians don't enjoy the same publicity machine as the Muslims' propaganda network and the ever-present anti-Jew contingent.

Why didn't South Africa come to the rescue for Nigerians as they have for Palestine? Might it be due to continuing anti-semitism after mistreatment by Jewish Afrikaans? Of course it is. Otherwise South Africa would be focusing on South Sudan, Nigeria and Niger, but these disasters are relatively ignored.

Meanwhile, the good intentions of humanist westerners are exploited by canny actors from the Middle East and Far East, seeing them as "useful idiots", working against the interests of their own culture.

I see no reason to wring my hands at atrocities away from my local area. My fretting won't help anyone. The world's issues today are at such a scale that humanity is largely powerless to stop the momentum of breakdown, and certainly incapable of coordinating and cooperating to achieve the common good.

Humans are good at pretending to cooperate, but games are always being played. The sly advantage is always taken, with careful manoeuvrings to gain the upper hand. I've heard people sprout faux-positive talk like ... 'Of course we'll fail with your defeatist attitude!' for over half a century, and it's as shallow and disingenuous now as it was then. People have been been optimistic and struggled and strived to move forward - but here we are.

Now, imagine if the left's desired outcome happens. That is, Israel is dissolved, the Jews are forced to find new lives scattered around various western countries, while Palestine takes the land. With that issue "resolved", there's just a dozen or more other major flashpoints to fix, because they have all been allowed to fester thanks to the disproportionate focus on this one conflict, especially by the UN, which has been captured by certain interests.

[Consul]

"Manifestations [of antisemitism] might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic [my emphasis]."

Source: https://www.state.gov/defining-antisemitism/

But, but, but ... I referred to the IHRA 'definition', not to that of the US government. The text you quote seems to offer a more balanced view.

You failed to notice that the US state department has adopted the IHRA text, including its definition: https://holocaustremembrance.com/resour ... tisemitism

[Sy Borg]

"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic

The key phrase here to me is "similar to that leveled against any other country".

That has clearly not been the case, not on the forum, or elsewhere.

[Belindi]

There are undoubtedly other injustices in the world. However those don't excuse the injustice of Netanyahu and co. killing the feebler demographic that is Palestinian civilians.

I myself have been part of "the over focus on Palestine".That fact does not render my point of view illegitimate , unjust, or unreasonable; to claim that it does so is ad hominem.
The use of passive voice in your last paragraph does not conceal the ad hominem in your argument.

It might not render your view illegitimate - there are many, many leaders in this world worthy of judgement, including Netanyahu.

However, it is definitely and unequivocally anti-semitic to be so red hot against Israel while never at any stage showing even the slightest hint of concern for the many other places where people are being killed and mistreated. The only difference between this and other hotspots is that Jews are doing it. There is no other difference, except that this issue is not as bad as some of the others, which have far higher death/torture/homelessness tolls.

But hardly anyone cares about them ...

I note that the Palestinian leadership gave China its blessing regarding the genocide of Uyghurs.

https://www.voanews.com/a/palestinian-l ... 50767.html

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas recently visited Beijing, where he met with Chinese leader Xi Jinping and expressed support for China's treatment of Muslim Uyghurs in Xinjiang. His endorsement of China's policies and denial of the mistreatment of Muslims in Xinjiang drew criticism from politicians and rights activists.

During their meeting Wednesday, in which Abbas sought economic aid, he and Xi issued a joint statement in which Abbas endorsed China's domestic and foreign policies while dismissing the human rights concerns in Xinjiang as Western concepts.

The United States and some other countries have designated China's treatment of Uyghurs and other Muslims in Xinjiang as genocide, and the U.N. human rights office has stated that China's actions in Xinjiang may constitute crimes against humanity.

China denies these allegations and considers them fabrications by anti-China forces.

Abbas said in the joint statement that China's actions in Xinjiang have "nothing to do with human rights" and are aimed at countering extremism and terrorism. He also emphasized Palestinian opposition to using the Xinjiang issue to interfere in China's internal affairs.

Here's a new spin on the situation: Israel's actions in Gaza have "nothing to do with human rights" and are aimed at countering extremism and terrorism. He also emphasized opposition to using the Palestine issue to interfere in Israel's internal affairs.

While we argue about right and wrong, the actual protagonists don't give a damn, just as long as they collect the $$ and enjoy a luxurious lifestyle.

'Anti Semitic' has now become a term of abuse. Wittgenstein "the meaning of a word is its use".I am not angry at Jews, Judaism, or the nation of Israel. I am angry at the extreme Right (Netanyahu) .The extreme Right, for historical reasons, is very active in and from Israel at this time, but extreme Rightist politics can and do arise anywhere.

[Sculptor1]

Here's a new spin on the situation: Israel's actions in Gaza have "nothing to do with human rights" and are aimed at countering extremism and terrorism. He also emphasized opposition to using the Palestine issue to interfere in Israel's internal affairs.

FIshed in

[Belindi]

BTW, I am not pro-Israel or pro-Jew. I don't care about them. Neither of them. Anyone involved in a seventy-year war cannot claim to be guiltless. It logically takes two absolute idiots to fight for that long, without ever finding a compromise to improve the situation for both sides.

What annoys me is the hugely disproportionate focus on this one conflict at the expense of many others, some being far worse. Consider what's happening in Nigeria with the Boko Haram. They deliberately target women and girls too. But no one cares because no one knows, because oppressed Nigerian Christians don't enjoy the same publicity machine as the Muslims' propaganda network and the ever-present anti-Jew contingent.

Why didn't South Africa come to the rescue for Nigerians as they have for Palestine? Might it be due to continuing anti-semitism after mistreatment by Jewish Afrikaans? Of course it is. Otherwise South Africa would be focusing on South Sudan, Nigeria and Niger, but these disasters are relatively ignored.

Meanwhile, the good intentions of humanist westerners are exploited by canny actors from the Middle East and Far East, seeing them as "useful idiots", working against the interests of their own culture.

I see no reason to wring my hands at atrocities away from my local area. My fretting won't help anyone. The world's issues today are at such a scale that humanity is largely powerless to stop the momentum of breakdown, and certainly incapable of coordinating and cooperating to achieve the common good.

Humans are good at pretending to cooperate, but games are always being played. The sly advantage is always taken, with careful manoeuvrings to gain the upper hand. I've heard people sprout faux-positive talk like ... 'Of course we'll fail with your defeatist attitude!' for over half a century, and it's as shallow and disingenuous now as it was then. People have been been optimistic and struggled and strived to move forward - but here we are.

Now, imagine if the left's desired outcome happens. That is, Israel is dissolved, the Jews are forced to find new lives scattered around various western countries, while Palestine takes the land. With that issue "resolved", there's just a dozen or more other major flashpoints to fix, because they have all been allowed to fester thanks to the disproportionate focus on this one conflict, especially by the UN, which has been captured by certain interests.

Who wants Israel to be "dissolved"? We seek a fair compromise with an emphasis on international and Israeli law.

[Sy Borg]

Here's a new spin on the situation: Israel's actions in Gaza have "nothing to do with human rights" and are aimed at countering extremism and terrorism. He also emphasized opposition to using the Palestine issue to interfere in Israel's internal affairs.

FIshed in

That was satirising the propaganda BS coming from the other side. It might help to actually read before posting.

[Sy Borg]

BTW, I am not pro-Israel or pro-Jew. I don't care about them. Neither of them. Anyone involved in a seventy-year war cannot claim to be guiltless. It logically takes two absolute idiots to fight for that long, without ever finding a compromise to improve the situation for both sides.

What annoys me is the hugely disproportionate focus on this one conflict at the expense of many others, some being far worse. Consider what's happening in Nigeria with the Boko Haram. They deliberately target women and girls too. But no one cares because no one knows, because oppressed Nigerian Christians don't enjoy the same publicity machine as the Muslims' propaganda network and the ever-present anti-Jew contingent.

Why didn't South Africa come to the rescue for Nigerians as they have for Palestine? Might it be due to continuing anti-semitism after mistreatment by Jewish Afrikaans? Of course it is. Otherwise South Africa would be focusing on South Sudan, Nigeria and Niger, but these disasters are relatively ignored.

Meanwhile, the good intentions of humanist westerners are exploited by canny actors from the Middle East and Far East, seeing them as "useful idiots", working against the interests of their own culture.

I see no reason to wring my hands at atrocities away from my local area. My fretting won't help anyone. The world's issues today are at such a scale that humanity is largely powerless to stop the momentum of breakdown, and certainly incapable of coordinating and cooperating to achieve the common good.

Humans are good at pretending to cooperate, but games are always being played. The sly advantage is always taken, with careful manoeuvrings to gain the upper hand. I've heard people sprout faux-positive talk like ... 'Of course we'll fail with your defeatist attitude!' for over half a century, and it's as shallow and disingenuous now as it was then. People have been been optimistic and struggled and strived to move forward - but here we are.

Now, imagine if the left's desired outcome happens. That is, Israel is dissolved, the Jews are forced to find new lives scattered around various western countries, while Palestine takes the land. With that issue "resolved", there's just a dozen or more other major flashpoints to fix, because they have all been allowed to fester thanks to the disproportionate focus on this one conflict, especially by the UN, which has been captured by certain interests.

Who wants Israel to be "dissolved"? We seek a fair compromise with an emphasis on international and Israeli law.

Try Wiki, for starters:

The history of calls for the destruction of Israel is rooted in the prelude to its establishment. Leaders such as Azzam Pasha of the Arab League threatened a "war of extermination" in the event that a Jewish state was established.

Prior to the 1967 Six Day War, there was a nearly unanimous consensus among Arab nations aimed at the obliteration of Israel.[7] Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser reiterated calls for the annulment of Israel's existence in the lead-up to the war. Contemporary discourse from political figures in Iran, including leaders like Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, continues to advocate for Israel's destruction, accompanied by antisemitic rhetoric and Holocaust denial.[8] Islamist Palestinian organizations like Hamas[9] and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad[9] consistently promote the goal of Israel's elimination, as evidenced by their charters, statements, and actions, such as the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel.[10]

Instances of media and propaganda within Palestinian discourse also contribute to expressions advocating for the destruction of Israel. The political slogan "From the river to the sea"[11] has been linked to demands for a Palestinian state and the removal of a majority of its Jewish population, with ongoing debates about its implications and potential classification as antisemitic or hate speech.[12][13][14]

... During a speech in May 2012, the Chief of Staff of Iran's Ministry articulated the Iranian nation's steadfast commitment to its cause, which is the complete annihilation of Israel. Hojjat al‐Eslam Ali Shirazi, serving as the representative of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, asserted on October 2, 2012, that Iran needed a mere 23 hours to eliminate Israel. He further alleged that Israel was in close proximity to annihilation.[

... Imam Khalid Tafish, a prominent Hamas figure in Gaza, asserted a belief derived from the Quran, contending that "Jews must be destroyed twice in terrible wars."[29] Amid the 2023 Hamas-Israel war, Ghazi Hamad, a member of Hamas's political bureau, proclaimed that the surprise attack on October 7, resulting in the loss of 1,300 Israeli lives, mostly civilians, is but the initial phase in an ongoing series of assaults. Hamad expressed the organization's readiness to endure the consequences, underscoring their determination to persist with these attacks until the complete elimination of Israel.[10]

[Sy Borg]

There are undoubtedly other injustices in the world. However those don't excuse the injustice of Netanyahu and co. killing the feebler demographic that is Palestinian civilians.

I myself have been part of "the over focus on Palestine".That fact does not render my point of view illegitimate , unjust, or unreasonable; to claim that it does so is ad hominem.
The use of passive voice in your last paragraph does not conceal the ad hominem in your argument.

It might not render your view illegitimate - there are many, many leaders in this world worthy of judgement, including Netanyahu.

However, it is definitely and unequivocally anti-semitic to be so red hot against Israel while never at any stage showing even the slightest hint of concern for the many other places where people are being killed and mistreated. The only difference between this and other hotspots is that Jews are doing it. There is no other difference, except that this issue is not as bad as some of the others, which have far higher death/torture/homelessness tolls.

But hardly anyone cares about them ...

I note that the Palestinian leadership gave China its blessing regarding the genocide of Uyghurs.

https://www.voanews.com/a/palestinian-l ... 50767.html

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas recently visited Beijing, where he met with Chinese leader Xi Jinping and expressed support for China's treatment of Muslim Uyghurs in Xinjiang. His endorsement of China's policies and denial of the mistreatment of Muslims in Xinjiang drew criticism from politicians and rights activists.

During their meeting Wednesday, in which Abbas sought economic aid, he and Xi issued a joint statement in which Abbas endorsed China's domestic and foreign policies while dismissing the human rights concerns in Xinjiang as Western concepts.

The United States and some other countries have designated China's treatment of Uyghurs and other Muslims in Xinjiang as genocide, and the U.N. human rights office has stated that China's actions in Xinjiang may constitute crimes against humanity.

China denies these allegations and considers them fabrications by anti-China forces.

Abbas said in the joint statement that China's actions in Xinjiang have "nothing to do with human rights" and are aimed at countering extremism and terrorism. He also emphasized Palestinian opposition to using the Xinjiang issue to interfere in China's internal affairs.

Here's a new spin on the situation: Israel's actions in Gaza have "nothing to do with human rights" and are aimed at countering extremism and terrorism. He also emphasized opposition to using the Palestine issue to interfere in Israel's internal affairs.

While we argue about right and wrong, the actual protagonists don't give a damn, just as long as they collect the $$ and enjoy a luxurious lifestyle.

'Anti Semitic' has now become a term of abuse. Wittgenstein "the meaning of a word is its use".I am not angry at Jews, Judaism, or the nation of Israel. I am angry at the extreme Right (Netanyahu) .The extreme Right, for historical reasons, is very active in and from Israel at this time, but extreme Rightist politics can and do arise anywhere.

Anti-semitic is no more a term of abuse than Islamophobia. Anti-semitism is rightly applied to bias against Jews - such as being entirely focused on what Israel does wrong while entirely ignoring what everyone else does wrong. Certainly, I have seen "extreme right" being bandied down very freely regarding the views of ordinary people. If we were to believe the Guardian, those against The Voice referendum were of the "extreme right". It turned out to be almost 70% of the population.

Nor does anyone need to be "extreme right " to see this. We watched three Ivy League heads prevaricate when asked if calling for the genocide of Jews was against university policy. Imagine if it had been any other race - the outcry would have been far worse. You don't need to be "extreme right" to see that the UN's capture by Arab states and subsequent over-focus on Israel greatly reduced its ability to act on other flashpoints.

The extreme Marxist left has been having a field day referring to regular people as "extreme right". Of course, the extreme Marxist left is inherently anti-Semitic, seeing Israel as "the oppressor" and seeing zero responsibility on Hamas and Palestine in their role in the fighting over the past seventy years. There's a quote above (the one that I satirised that Sculptor took seriously) regarding the belief that Hamas is 100% innocent and blameless in a 70-year war. Yeah, sure they are innocent, and I have a harbour bridge to sell you at an extra cheap price.

[Lagayascienza]

Sy Borg, it is clear where you stand on this issue. And I have expressed my own ideas about the morality of the current state of affairs. I will not attempt to argue any more about that. But I do have question. Clearly, the Palestinians are never going to defeat the Israelis militarily. Nor will they will never get their lands back. So, my question is: What do you think should be done with the Palestinians now?

[Pattern-chaser]

- there are many, many leaders in this world worthy of judgement, including Netanyahu.

However, it is definitely and unequivocally anti-semitic to be so red hot against Israel while never at any stage showing even the slightest hint of concern for the many other places where people are being killed and mistreated. The only difference between this and other hotspots is that Jews are doing it. There is no other difference, except that this issue is not as bad as some of the others, which have far higher death/torture/homelessness tolls.

But hardly anyone cares about them ...

I'm sorry, but this topic is entitled "The Israeli-Palestinian conflict", and not "Unjust conflicts across the world". Thus, nearly all the posts in this topic concern this one conflict. I think it is unfair to assume that no-one cares about other conflicts, when this topic specifically concerns only one.

Perhaps you should create the "Unjust conflicts across the world" topic?

[Pattern-chaser]

BTW, I am not pro-Israel or pro-Jew. I don't care about them. Neither of them. Anyone involved in a seventy-year war cannot claim to be guiltless. It logically takes two absolute idiots to fight for that long, without ever finding a compromise to improve the situation for both sides.

The history of this issue begins around 800 BCE, as we know, not only seventy years ago. And there are many parties involved, not just two. The ones I can think of are: Israel, Palestine, UN, USA, UK, and lately, Yemen, and other 'Arab' states, very much including Iran. Is it reasonable also to include the EU, Canada, and all the other 'world leaders' who supported and re-echoed President Biden's statement of total support for Israel?

I think it would be difficult to find a compromise acceptable to all, given that there are so many parties involved. This whole matter is punctuated with episodes of military coercion against populations too 'weak' to resist them, beginning with when the Jews were expelled from Palestine in 800 BCE, by an irresistible military force. The result is a big mess, one that defies any simple or easy resolution...

[Sculptor1]

Here's a new spin on the situation: Israel's actions in Gaza have "nothing to do with human rights" and are aimed at countering extremism and terrorism. He also emphasized opposition to using the Palestine issue to interfere in Israel's internal affairs.

FIshed in

That was satirising the propaganda BS coming from the other side. It might help to actually read before posting.

Are you hoping to vote for Trump this year?