Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[JackDaydream]

subversive art styles in the twentieth first century. Is the idea of the bohemian outsider and the antihero an artefact of individualism. In the context of the extent of the critique of consumerism in the face of the daunting prospects of climate change what is the future for the alternative arts and aesthetics? To what extent does the artistic imagination matter any longer?

The Individual Romantic Rock and Roll Counterculture Artist Lives!

Is the current underground counterculture in the spotlight and as noticable like it was in 1968, or in the “Indie” era of the mid 1980s with alternative rock, independent cinema, etc? Counterculture has at times been in large part Youth culture. The “Over 30 adults” haven’t traditionally been invited to the Youth party so it’s hard to know how vibrant the real underground scene is. It's range, it's effectiveness, it's polis isn't viewed until history looks back on the generation in hindsight. I don't mean to be rude or indelicate but maybe we're just old and it's hard to see contemporary arts.


Escaping the Oppressive Culture Tower, the illusion of social media

All generations of artists have to battle against their contemporary co-opting forces.
“You do you” is a current saying which champions that Romantic and existential ideal of the Individual being authentic. Affirmations of a creed like the Romanitic “Truth Beauty Love” or “You do You” may lose power in the over amplified, trendy lifestyle generators like instagram text posts and Twitter generated catch-phrases. Ironically social media waters it all down. It’s social media that co-opts the urge of the authentic individual and transforms it into a sheeple commodified propaganda slogan.

Even if they never listen to rock and roll, anyone can buy an already “distressed” Woodstock concert tee shirt at a big box store. You can order clothes online and dress like a surfer, you can learn to talk like a surfer, you can adopt personal and political attributes of a surfer, but if you don’t surf, you don't surf. ..You ain’t punk. Adam Curtis’ Century of the Self episode 3 gets into how Stanford Research Institute surveyed the American public in the early 1970s to look into the counterculture movement. "Hippies were identified as having a lifestyle. Counterculture was then co-opted, assimilated back into the Culture through consumerism, turned into the commodifiable “Lifestyle”. That’s the fancy way of understanding “selling out” without knowing they were selling.


60 year old Punk Rockers are retired and touring again in London, San Francisco…

I’m pretty old, in my early 50s, married, kid, and I had lost touch with rock n roll as a counterculture force, a lifelong passion of mine. I found myself disconnected from the underground, stuck floating in the currents of pop culture suburbia. I aimed to reconnect and find the current underground, and was successful and I see it is alive and well. A local punk band recently had a concert on a subway train car. Somewhere in middle america a punk band had a concert as a record release party by renting a Denny's as it was the cheapest venue. I’ve seen other old dudes like me at some of the “underground counterculture” concerts here in San Francisco and Oakland.

Retro is embraced. Like the 60 year punk rockers mentioned above in this thread, one of the best “early punk” 60s bands Sonics “Have Love Will Travel” have recently had shows and made videos. Face melting psych rock heavy bands of today like Earthless cover little known early underground rock gems like the 70s band the Groundhogs’ song “Cherry Red”. Gothic Romantic poet Novalis will open for gothic bands Bauhaus and the Cure at Cruel World music fest.


The authentic Artist creating new work is by nature against oppressive culture, an integral part of rebellion and rebellion is at the core of the human desire for freedom.

I believe the artistic urge is inherently counterculture because to be authentic it is inevitably counter to the existing mass culture, otherwise it's not novel and not authentic. (it might be influenced by or similar too but if the art isn't personal, it's not art it's design). If it is not novel it is a copy, merely a re-imaging of the already accedpted arts of the culture power structures.

Is freedom a moral issue? I just listened to the Partially Examined Life’s podcast on Schiller, arguing that the arts facilitate abstract thinking, and abstract thinking (or maybe critical thinking) lead to developing the moral. The arts are a spearhead for freedom, free thinking.

My paranoid critique (nod to Dali) is that the power hungry cultural leaders, the fat cat politcians intentionally limit the arts at least in USA, defund and undermine arts education, as an early detourant against future free thinkers, activists, who might challenge issues, the system and therefore the corrupt fat cats' wealth. They won't allow the counterculture arts to thrive economically or socially or politically because it threatens their wealth and power (The are opporating in survival mode not a moral mode).

Counterculture is continually co-opted by big tech / big money, assimilated, to undermine it's counter force but the Individual is still here, free and making art and making moves.

Thank you for your detailed reply and, it sounds as if you have some knowledge of subculture. I listen to a lot of music like Bauhaus and other alternative goth bands, including The Sex Gang Children, grunge and some metal and emo, such as My Chemical Romance and Against Me. I gravitated towards subculture as a child and did an art project on youth subculture in sixth form and carried on doing art inspired by this.

The reason why I think that youth subculture has faded is that the teenagers I know now seem so 'mainstream', following popular entertainment with some 'retro included. In a way trans subculture may be the most subversive form of youth subculture, especially trans musicians and artists of all ages. Perhaps, the youth aspect of subculture has faded now because those who were part of the music subcultures are not young any longer. There are probably a lot of dead subcultural legends too, including Lou Reed, Andy Warhol and Kurt Cobain.

However, I think that generally the arts are dominated by the mainstream as opposed to bohemianism. This is probably due to the way in which life has become so digitalised. Even the so many people on this site are mainstream Americans and are mesmerised by the potential of artificial intelligence. I am probably a bit of a romantic, being more fascinated by bohemians and outsiders. Also, having run art activities in mental health care, I am extremely interested in the 'outsider art' movement as opposed to the more mainstream ones of people needing degrees in order to be accepted to have work submitted in galleries and compete in the commercial world.

[Abstract Landscape]

Thank you for your detailed reply and, it sounds as if you have some knowledge of subculture. I listen to a lot of music like Bauhaus and other alternative goth bands, including The Sex Gang Children, grunge and some metal and emo, such as My Chemical Romance and Against Me. I gravitated towards subculture as a child and did an art project on youth subculture in sixth form and carried on doing art inspired by this.

The reason why I think that youth subculture has faded is that the teenagers I know now seem so 'mainstream', following popular entertainment with some 'retro included. In a way trans subculture may be the most subversive form of youth subculture, especially trans musicians and artists of all ages. Perhaps, the youth aspect of subculture has faded now because those who were part of the music subcultures are not young any longer. There are probably a lot of dead subcultural legends too, including Lou Reed, Andy Warhol and Kurt Cobain.

However, I think that generally the arts are dominated by the mainstream as opposed to bohemianism. This is probably due to the way in which life has become so digitalised. Even the so many people on this site are mainstream Americans and are mesmerised by the potential of artificial intelligence. I am probably a bit of a romantic, being more fascinated by bohemians and outsiders. Also, having run art activities in mental health care, I am extremely interested in the 'outsider art' movement as opposed to the more mainstream ones of people needing degrees in order to be accepted to have work submitted in galleries and compete in the commercial world.

If we think of culture as a thing that changes over time, each change in culture is a subcultural offshoot, a new branch that might grow into something large enough to later be called culture, a normal part of the process of a cultural evolution. For counterculture or subculture to be more dominant than culture is on a level of revolution, so that’s pretty rare. We’re stuck with the arts and culture that don’t rock the boat, that are steady predictable, in part because of the economics, and in other ways for the cultural foundations of the polis and power of the institutions who say this art is okay, that art isn’t. It’s slow to change. Trends change only after the mainstream assimilates the bohemian style, or any new style that runs counter to the established norm. But there are always smaller counter-culture bohemian groups doing their thing. Often they avoid the art world specifically so they don’t become commodified, assimilated, they just want to do their thing.

The arts and by extension culture is also a business, an economy, and the economists, the business people in the arts and culture markets have a very, very heavy hand in and direct what is mainstream and accepted and so other art not considered. Occasionally we’ll get a “newly discovered old, previously unregarded artist” seen in full light. Hilma af Kilmt is a recent one.

I recalled Colin Wilson’s book the Outsider. Have you read that one? You might enjoy it. It’s been a long time since I read it but I remember it being a look at the biographies of “ground breaking” artists and historical figures, outsiders who succeeded in their individual expressions. Colin Wilson later went on to write about “New Existentialism”, a positive methodology for flourishing as a person, and he talked about “peak experiences” being a kind of bearing, a guide.

Art as expression of the personal, amplified and embraced by others as a practice, could point us to seeing it as a political movement, but then it’s more about politics and less about the art. As an experience, or activity, creative practice offers lots of good stuff, self expression, critical thinking, self reflection, or as a therapeutic path a way to explore the personal interior psychology. Shaun McNiffs early book on Depth Psychology was interesting when I picked it up long ago, though the later books like Art as Medicine were more of a pop level explanation of art therapy rather than the distilled academic study of the early book.

There’s a really good documentary movie on artists in the fine art gallery world and whether they make it or not. "The Art of Making It"

[Mystery_School]

I do still follow new music, although less so than before lockdown. I have only listened to one 2023 albums, one by a band called Inhaler, the lead singer being the son of Bono in U2.

Speaking of U2, which is a band I highly dislike, it's interesting to note that the most significant counter-cultural artform I can think of has directly critiqued U2. That art movement is culture jamming, with the EP 'U2' by Negativland;

'In 1991 San Francisco sound collage/art collective/intellectual property law activists Negativland released an EP called U2, consisting largely of samples of Casey Kasem getting mad in radio outtakes... As the title of that video suggests, the concept behind the title U2 was that they would put “U2” in huge letters on the album cover, and then “Negativland” in much smaller letters, implying that it was a U2 album called “Negativland.” Then, for plausible deniability and I guess maybe just because they look cool, they put a picture of the U-2 airplane on there too.'

That would be a cultural or countercultural crisis almost equal to the ecological crisis and to the postmodern idea of 'the end of history'.

I definitely think we can be more resistant to disaster by embracing new ideas, especially if those ideas contain a quality of life in them, such as interesting art, music and/or sound art.

[Mystery_School]

I wanted to add that the 'direct critique' of U2 more had to do with it being released by massive corporations, who are also associated with the military industrial complex. Its art, so its not a direct accusation.

I cannot legally quote this on this website, because I can't post a link, but you could try doing a search for 'negativlands-culture-jamming-gets-swamped-in-hot-water'

"That's the natural creative impulse — it's
transformational more than purely creative, as in starting
from nothing," he said. "We take chunks of actual things and
recombine them. It's not outright counterfeit when you
create something new. But now these businesses want to stop
that, stop people from being creative. Time-Warner and all
that — they want total control of everything and they want
us to sit back and be passive consumers. If you follow that
logic all the way through, it's the death of culture. It's
mean-spirited, and it's just dumb."

[JackDaydream]

Thank you for your detailed reply and, it sounds as if you have some knowledge of subculture. I listen to a lot of music like Bauhaus and other alternative goth bands, including The Sex Gang Children, grunge and some metal and emo, such as My Chemical Romance and Against Me. I gravitated towards subculture as a child and did an art project on youth subculture in sixth form and carried on doing art inspired by this.

The reason why I think that youth subculture has faded is that the teenagers I know now seem so 'mainstream', following popular entertainment with some 'retro included. In a way trans subculture may be the most subversive form of youth subculture, especially trans musicians and artists of all ages. Perhaps, the youth aspect of subculture has faded now because those who were part of the music subcultures are not young any longer. There are probably a lot of dead subcultural legends too, including Lou Reed, Andy Warhol and Kurt Cobain.

However, I think that generally the arts are dominated by the mainstream as opposed to bohemianism. This is probably due to the way in which life has become so digitalised. Even the so many people on this site are mainstream Americans and are mesmerised by the potential of artificial intelligence. I am probably a bit of a romantic, being more fascinated by bohemians and outsiders. Also, having run art activities in mental health care, I am extremely interested in the 'outsider art' movement as opposed to the more mainstream ones of people needing degrees in order to be accepted to have work submitted in galleries and compete in the commercial world.

If we think of culture as a thing that changes over time, each change in culture is a subcultural offshoot, a new branch that might grow into something large enough to later be called culture, a normal part of the process of a cultural evolution. For counterculture or subculture to be more dominant than culture is on a level of revolution, so that’s pretty rare. We’re stuck with the arts and culture that don’t rock the boat, that are steady predictable, in part because of the economics, and in other ways for the cultural foundations of the polis and power of the institutions who say this art is okay, that art isn’t. It’s slow to change. Trends change only after the mainstream assimilates the bohemian style, or any new style that runs counter to the established norm. But there are always smaller counter-culture bohemian groups doing their thing. Often they avoid the art world specifically so they don’t become commodified, assimilated, they just want to do their thing.

The arts and by extension culture is also a business, an economy, and the economists, the business people in the arts and culture markets have a very, very heavy hand in and direct what is mainstream and accepted and so other art not considered. Occasionally we’ll get a “newly discovered old, previously unregarded artist” seen in full light. Hilma af Kilmt is a recent one.

I recalled Colin Wilson’s book the Outsider. Have you read that one? You might enjoy it. It’s been a long time since I read it but I remember it being a look at the biographies of “ground breaking” artists and historical figures, outsiders who succeeded in their individual expressions. Colin Wilson later went on to write about “New Existentialism”, a positive methodology for flourishing as a person, and he talked about “peak experiences” being a kind of bearing, a guide.

Art as expression of the personal, amplified and embraced by others as a practice, could point us to seeing it as a political movement, but then it’s more about politics and less about the art. As an experience, or activity, creative practice offers lots of good stuff, self expression, critical thinking, self reflection, or as a therapeutic path a way to explore the personal interior psychology. Shaun McNiffs early book on Depth Psychology was interesting when I picked it up long ago, though the later books like Art as Medicine were more of a pop level explanation of art therapy rather than the distilled academic study of the early book.

There’s a really good documentary movie on artists in the fine art gallery world and whether they make it or not. "The Art of Making It"

I have read Colin Wilson's 'The Outsider' and it was one of the books which really inspired me. It shows art as a way of seeing, as opposed to art as works. I found his thinking introduced me to the overlapping aspects of art and philosophy, which may be an overlooked area of thinking.

[JackDaydream]

I wanted to add that the 'direct critique' of U2 more had to do with it being released by massive corporations, who are also associated with the military industrial complex. Its art, so its not a direct accusation.

I cannot legally quote this on this website, because I can't post a link, but you could try doing a search for 'negativlands-culture-jamming-gets-swamped-in-hot-water'

"That's the natural creative impulse — it's
transformational more than purely creative, as in starting
from nothing," he said. "We take chunks of actual things and
recombine them. It's not outright counterfeit when you
create something new. But now these businesses want to stop
that, stop people from being creative. Time-Warner and all
that — they want total control of everything and they want
us to sit back and be passive consumers. If you follow that
logic all the way through, it's the death of culture. It's
mean-spirited, and it's just dumb."

I am a little bit stunned by your critique of U2, because they are one of the bands which inspired me, especially the albums,'War', 'The Joshua Tree' and 'Achtung Baby'.I do feel that these were great works of art, but other bands of that era, especially the Alarm, the Rainmakers, as well as Balaam and the Angel were marginalised. This may reflect biases and political allegiances

In terms of corporations, so much may come into play. Even subculture, ranging from goth, indie to emo and many others, is directed by market forces. Retro may be so bound up with consumerism. It may involve the seductive nature of images, going back to pop art of the counterculture, such as Andy Warhol and Velvet Underground.

Going back to U2, their influence may have been strong as a result of 'Live Aid'. Artists protest and may gain credibility through cultural protest. It may go back to the the issues or art and protest, and what is truly radical beyond consumer materialism, in terms of radical questioning?

[Count Lucanor]

Speaking of U2, which is a band I highly dislike, it's interesting to note that the most significant counter-cultural artform I can think of has directly critiqued U2. That art movement is culture jamming, with the EP 'U2' by Negativland;

The relationship between mass culture, of which the band U2 is representitive, and art, is complicated, if we understand art as high-art, its most advanced expression.

[A Material Girl]

I do still follow new music, although less so than before lockdown. I have only listened to one 2023 albums, one by a band called Inhaler, the lead singer being the son of Bono in U2.

Speaking of U2, which is a band I highly dislike, it's interesting to note that the most significant counter-cultural artform I can think of has directly critiqued U2. That art movement is culture jamming, with the EP 'U2' by Negativland;

'In 1991 San Francisco sound collage/art collective/intellectual property law activists Negativland released an EP called U2, consisting largely of samples of Casey Kasem getting mad in radio outtakes... As the title of that video suggests, the concept behind the title U2 was that they would put “U2” in huge letters on the album cover, and then “Negativland” in much smaller letters, implying that it was a U2 album called “Negativland.” Then, for plausible deniability and I guess maybe just because they look cool, they put a picture of the U-2 airplane on there too.'

That would be a cultural or countercultural crisis almost equal to the ecological crisis and to the postmodern idea of 'the end of history'.

I definitely think we can be more resistant to disaster by embracing new ideas, especially if those ideas contain a quality of life in them, such as interesting art, music and/or sound art.

A piece of Ambient Music that I used to particularly enjoy
on Youtube was by Steve Roach - Dream Body

Still available on Youtube. Check it out!

[JackDaydream]

I am experiencing so much stress recently, which I see as being connected to politics and subordination. At the moment, I am finding the music of U2 so helpful and left wondering about the criticism of U2 on this thread. It does lead me to question such music and other aspects as being a political rhetoric of challenging the status quo and ideologies. So, some may see the music style of U2, and other subversive genres, as having political agendas, but I am left wondering how this fits into the larger picture of arts, politics and the idea of subversion. How much is political or about underlying values, including aesthetics and its relationship with politics?

[Pattern-chaser]

I have read Colin Wilson's 'The Outsider' and it was one of the books which really inspired me. It shows art as a way of seeing, as opposed to art as works. I found his thinking introduced me to the overlapping aspects of art and philosophy, which may be an overlooked area of thinking.

Why are we always surprised, I wonder, when we discover — yet again — that everything is connected to everything else? I also like the idea that art is "a way of seeing", which resonates deeply with my own conception of art. Artists are those who exhibit a different way of seeing, to the benefit of all, I think? Art, in this context, offers different perspectives (different ways of seeing), and the more perspectives we have, the wider a view we are able to take, and maybe even to understand? This is surely philosophy, as you say.

[Xenophon]

In raising this topic I am thinking primarily of countercultural movements which arose from the 1960s onwards, although bohemian arts may have its roots in romanticism. The subcultures which I am thinking of include the hippy and punk ones, and music is a large part of this but other arts feature. For example, Velvet Underground were a large musical influence but so was the art of Andy Warhol. There are crossovers between art, music and cult fiction, as well as subcultural aesthetics and political radicalism.

Subcultures have often been youth movements and have included black youth in forms such as gangsta rap. However, it is questionable whether there have been many recent innovations since this, nu metal and emo. In music, the demise of record shops may have made a difference and the digital making of music.

However, it may also be about subculture becoming part of mainstream, with punk, goth and the writings of the beat poets, such as Jack Kerouac, and cult fiction becoming retro. The idea of retro and futuristism is combined in the genre of steampunk and there is the youth political protest movements, such as the activism of Greta Thundberg.

But the extent of countercultural and subcultural artistic movements is questionable. So, I am asking about how you see subversive art styles in the twentieth first century. Is the idea of the bohemian outsider and the antihero an artefact of individualism. In the context of the extent of the critique of consumerism in the face of the daunting prospects of climate change what is the future for the alternative arts and aesthetics? To what extent does the artistic imagination matter any longer?

The counterculture was commercialized half a century ago. Greta Thundberg? Does she even exist when one hits the "off" switch?