Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[ConsciousAI]

Why should Israel accept being attacked without retaliation?

In the Netherlands, parents tell their children the wisdom "be the wisest" to stop the cycle of violence and retaliation in child quarrels. Why would that not apply on a larger scale?

Why are you so excited about stopping Israel but you care absolutely nothing about what Chinese and other Arabs are doing to Arabs - far, far worse than anything Israel has done?

Many decades ago, before the war in Iraq, I read an article in Scientific American by a group of ethical scientists that proposed that instead of war (retaliation) it would be possible to provide solutions for water and that it would turn the people into friends and prevent the destructive war.

Iraq faced an extreme water crisis in the years leading up to the 2003 war. By the early 1990s, Iraq was already struggling with water scarcity, leading to a significant decrease in water delivery and serious health epidemics. The First Gulf War and UN Sanctions further impacted Iraq's water crisis, with a substantial decline in the average per capita share of potable water.

(2021) Water wars on the horizon in Iran
Extreme water scarcity and wide disparities in public water supplies are potent ingredients for conflict. Jordan's water situation—long deemed a crisis—is now on the brink of "boiling over" into instability, said lead study author Jim Yoon, a water security and resilience scientist at Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.

(2020) Water Crisis, A Bigger Threat Than Terrorism
“Providing these needs will have a great effect on people, and will make them sympathize with us and feel that their fate is tied to ours.”
dailytimes com pk

Motive for terrorism: violence begets violence

Researchers have interviewed people who have joined armed resistance groups in countries across the world to ask them about what drove them to join an armed group and take part in guerrilla warfare or terrorism. In 2015, the Center for Civilians in Conflict published the results of interviews with 250 people who joined armed groups in Bosnia, Somalia, Gaza and Libya in a report titled, The People’s Perspective: Civilian Involvement in Armed Conflict. One of its main findings was that, “The most common motivation for involvement, described by interviewees in all four case studies, was the protection of self or family.”

If most of the people fighting U.S. forces and their allies across the world, from Niger to Ukraine to the Philippines, are just trying to defend themselves and their families against our “counterterrorism” operations, that turns the whole basis of the U.S. “war on terror” on its head. The most effective way to reduce violence and terrorism would obviously be to stop putting them in such an intolerable position in the first place.

Across the world, it is obvious, and now well-documented, that U.S. aggression and militarism are causing the very problems they claim to be trying to solve.

civiliansinconflict org

What do you think of the plea by scientists, before the war, that an alternative could have been to solve the water crisis?

[ConsciousAI]

You are right, Sy Borg. War has been an ongoing feature of human life. And that is likely to continue. It's as if we can't help it. I don't know what the answer is. Except to promote reason and rationality over nonsense. And to promote an understanding of the close kinship of all humans.

Philosophy can facilitate change and it is my opinion that one should solely look at what philosophy can provide: a path of reason. It results in moral improvement or 'civilization'.

American philosopher Henry David Thoreau predicted that humans would ultimately stop eating animals, while not being a vegan himself. He made that prediction while writing Walden.

Whatever my own practice may be, I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual moral improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came in contact with the more civilized.

In light of the potential for civilization provided for by philosophy, one might argue that war and barbarism are to be abolished and are not to be considered a part of humanity, just as "the savage tribes" were no example for humanity from the 1854 perspective of Henry David Thoreau.

[Lagayascienza]

I agree, ConsciousAI, that if we all had the time to do philosophy, doing so it might help us overcome our problems. And Thoreau's is a nice vision for human moral progress. I just wish the goal didn't seem to keep receding further and further into the future.

[ConsciousAI]

As with the saying, one has to make the first step.

[Sy Borg]

Why should Israel accept being attacked without retaliation?

In the Netherlands, parents tell their children the wisdom "be the wisest" to stop the cycle of violence and retaliation in child quarrels. Why would that not apply on a larger scale?

Because such an action would precede the end of the nation.

[ConsciousAI]

Why should Israel accept being attacked without retaliation?

In the Netherlands, parents tell their children the wisdom "be the wisest" to stop the cycle of violence and retaliation in child quarrels. Why would that not apply on a larger scale?

Because such an action would precede the end of the nation.

What about "do not lower yourself to evil doers" (Do not fret because of evildoers, Bible Proverbs 24:19, "Do not repay evil with evil" and "Rise above (eschatological vision) hate and evil").

AI: "It advises against becoming agitated or envious due to the actions or success of evildoers, emphasizing the lack of a positive future for the wicked.

The verse encourages trust in the integrity and faithfulness of God and not allowing the wrongdoing of others to steal one's joy and peace. This principle is also echoed in Psalm 37, where it is emphasized that fretting over evildoers tends only to evildoing and that the wicked will ultimately perish."

I understand that you might not be religious and wouldn't see any validity in the idea of trust in God, but I do believe that the wisdom per se is valid. It is essentially the idea "violence begets violence".

To break the cycle of violence, one has to make the first step.

In the saying of Albert Einstein, "intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them" one might find an ethical responsibility that wouldn't be about standing still and 'not retaliate' in the face of evil, but quite the opposite, to be pro-active to prevent evil. One might replace the idea of 'trust in God' with 'trust in the path of philosophical reason'.

A group of scientists were arguing that the war in Iraq could have been prevented by providing a solution for the extreme water crisis that the country was facing. That would have been a pro-active solution that would have prevented mass destruction, and potentially would have created lasting friendships.

"The extreme water crisis in Iraq before the war was the cause of the war. The war itself, particularly the 2003 invasion, led to damage and destruction of water systems, causing people in Iraq to lose more than 50% of potable water while it was already facing an extreme water crisis.

Water systems in Iraq were specifically targeted by bombings, leading to significant suffering and death among the civilian population."

As for the case by the scientists:

Water crisis in Iraq: cause of conflict

"The instability in Iraq leading to the conflict before 2003 was influenced by government repression and the rise of insurgent groups. The Al-Maliki government's marginalization of Sunni protestors and the repressive response to their demonstrations contributed to widespread unrest and insurgency.

The lack of access to clean drinking water and the deterioration of water quality due to pollution and mismanagement led to widespread public unrest and protests, particularly in regions like Basra. The protests concerned a wide array of issues related to poor public services, foreign influence, and corruption, with water scarcity being the primary factor.

The severe water shortages and the resulting humanitarian crisis, compounded by the impact of upstream water use by neighboring countries, significantly affected the well-being of the population and contributed to social unrest and protests over the government's failure to address the water crisis. The government's actions, coupled with the entrenched sectarian divisions, fueled the emergence of the Islamic State (IS) and its violent campaign against the government and other groups."

As can be seen, the scientists in an article in Scientific American - before the war - might have had a case to prevent the war and to prevent the emergence of among other things, violence against the Government by Islamic State (IS) and other groups.

By choosing to solve the water crisis, the well-being of millions of people and children could have been protected and benefited, instead of harmed. It could have turned people into friends and prevent terrorism fundamentally.

Adam Sandler has shown through a movie, that Palestinian and Israeli people can flourish together.

"the film’s happy ending comes when our hero abandons his country and his identity, joining the all-American intermarried mélange.”

The Times of Israel wrote: "Ten years after its release, the film represents a world view that seems to be disappearing as the Israel-Palestinian conflict takes on increasingly black and white narratives."

The description "black and white narratives", just the idea of that being the case (when it concerns the decision to bomb people), would demand intellectual caution beforehand and can provide a basis for the pursuit of non-violent pro-active alternatives that bring people together and that support a path of intellectual progress for humanity and beyond.

[Pattern-chaser]

There is no bias or propaganda in my words. Zero. How can you just airily throw that claim out there when it's obvious that I have simply stated facts and spoken logic?

Earlier in this thread, you repeated the "40 beheaded babies" lie, you and Pres. Biden both. It has now been fact-checked and proven to be false. In a war, both sides feel quite comfortable about lying, as though it's allowed in such circumstances. I feel almost as uncomfortable with the propaganda as I am with the war and the killing. Sorry if I'm being over-sensitive about that.

[Sy Borg]

No I did not repeat the 40 beheaded babies lie. I mentioned the beheading of babies but specified no number, so it appears that your reporting is no better than mine.

Further, there's significant evidence that sexual crimes and torture against captives were perpetrated by Hamas.

Meanwhile, Hamas makes sure that all their human shields remain in place, refusing to let them go to safety, so they can clock up the causalities and win the PR war. Most leaders try to protect their people rather than use them as shields and their deaths as PR triumphs.

I am uncomfortable with westerners swallowing anti-western propaganda, when others - like Chinese, Arabs and Africans - have been doing far worse. I find that logical inconsistency and the tendency to follow the latest trendy cause makes me uncomfortable.

[Pattern-chaser]

No I did not repeat the 40 beheaded babies lie. I mentioned the beheading of babies but specified no number, so it appears that your reporting is no better than mine.

Then please excuse me. I intended no misdirection. I only seek and sought to point out that propaganda is widespread here, in this topic, and in other similar situations. Both sides are guilty of this. It is difficult to fact-check every utterance, but we need to take care what we say or write, nonetheless.

[value]

Why not end the Uyghurs' suffering? Or the suffering in Ukraine, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Eritrea, Turkmenistan, North Korea, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Chad, Mali or Niger? ...

The suffering doesn't stop. ... Suffering is relentless in life and in history. Since the US lost its moral authority, and thus its hegemony, with its invasion of Iraq...

You've provided a comprehensive perspective on the scope of the worlds suffering! Perhaps it is a great luck to have you as an admin on this forum. I've noticed just a few others on this forum with such a wide coverage of world events, one of them being Sculptor1.

However, I do not believe that reflecting on suffering, on errors or on violent conflicts is a justification for not being morally responsible. Your attention is evidence for moral responsibility, but the reflection per se (in general) should not become a ground for the argument that it is normal, or that it "doesn't stop".

Pattern-chaser once argued the following based on his reflection on humanity's destruction of nature.

Why would any sentient species want to support or aid the plague species that is destroying the world we all share? Surely sentient creatures would wish to oppose humanity in every way that they can? [Gaia again! ]

By asking the question why, he essentially provided evidence for potential. Humans could make a mistake, but as is evident from his post, humans in general may not intend to do so.

Intention is where it starts.

[value]

There is never any moral justification for attacking and harming others.

Albert Einstein once said: "intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them"...

As with the saying, one has to make the first step.

A forgotten plea to prevent the war in Iraq

Before the 2003 war in Iraq I noticed a plea by a group of scientists in Scientific American who argued that the war could be prevented by solving the extreme water crisis that the country was facing.

After doing a bit more research, I discovered that water systems in Iraq were specifically targeted and that even drink water tankers were blocked from reaching Iraq, while ultimately over 1.5 million civilian people - including 565,000 children - would die primarily because of lack of access to drinking water.

Children in Iraq
water-crisis.jpg (49.17 KiB) Viewed 440 times

And a pattern arose. The NATO did the same thing in Libya in 2011 and is now accused of not just a war crime, but of deliberate genocide of the people in Libya.

(2015) War crime: NATO deliberately destroyed Libya's water infrastructure
The deliberate bombing of Libya's water infrastructure, with the knowledge that doing so would result in massive deaths of the population, is not just a war crime, but a genocidal strategy.
Source: https://theecologist.org/2015/may/14/wa ... astructure

An award winning journalist has made a documentary about it called "Killing the Children of Iraq".

Award-winning journalist John Pilger
john-pilger.jpg (32.67 KiB) Viewed 440 times

Sanctioned Genocide: Killing the Children of Iraq
Evidence exists that U.S. planners planned the destruction of Iraq's water systems. US/UK military forces committed war crimes by depriving civilians of drinking water. The vast majority of the 1.5 million civilian deaths were caused not by the direct impact of bombs but by targeted destruction of water systems. A documentary film by award-winning journalist John Pilger uncovers details.
https://gmodebate.org/peace/#pilger

I've placed a promotion in over 50 languages on a website for clean mobility that is visited by people from over 200 countries per week on average.

Water crisis in Iran
iran-water-crisis.png (155.39 KiB) Viewed 440 times

In Iran today, some people literally fight over the last drops of water.

(2023) Water wars on the horizon in Iran: Some are chasing the last drops of water
Conflicts spread over the increasingly scarce resource.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/worl ... imate.html

Hopefully something can be learned from the forgotten plea by scientists before the war in Iraq. As of 2024, there are technologies that can extract water from air and solve the water crisis. The war in Iraq costed an estimated $3 trillion USD. Just a fraction of that amount might enable the creation of drink water farms that would solve the water crisis and prevent an escalation of conflicts.

In Iraq, after the water systems were destroyed (and the Government of Iraq was blamed): "The lack of access to clean drinking water led to widespread public unrest and protests, causing the emergence of the Islamic State (IS) and its violent campaign against the government. "

(2020) Water Crisis, A Bigger Threat Than Terrorism
Extreme water scarcity and wide disparities in public water supplies are potent ingredients for conflict. Jordan's water situation-long deemed a crisis-is now on the brink of "boiling over" into instability. Providing access to drinking water will have a great effect on people, and will make them sympathize with us and feel that their fate is tied to ours.

https://gmodebate.org/peace/

[Sy Borg]

Why not end the Uyghurs' suffering? Or the suffering in Ukraine, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Eritrea, Turkmenistan, North Korea, Afghanistan, South Sudan, Chad, Mali or Niger? ...

The suffering doesn't stop. ... Suffering is relentless in life and in history. Since the US lost its moral authority, and thus its hegemony, with its invasion of 🇮🇶 Iraq...

You've provided a comprehensive perspective on the scope of the worlds suffering! Perhaps it is a great luck to have you as an admin on this forum. I've noticed just a few others on this forum with such a wide coverage of world events, one of them being Sculptor1.

However, I do not believe that reflecting on suffering, on errors or on violent conflicts is a justification for not being morally responsible. Your attention is evidence for moral responsibility, but the reflection per se (in general) should not become a ground for the argument that it is normal, or that it "doesn't stop".

Pattern-chaser once argued the following based on his reflection on humanity's destruction of nature.

Why would any sentient species want to support or aid the plague species that is destroying the world we all share? Surely sentient creatures would wish to oppose humanity in every way that they can? 🤔 [Gaia again! 👍🌳🌳🌳]

By asking the question why, he essentially provided evidence for potential. Humans could make a mistake, but as is evident from his post, humans in general may not intend to do so.

Intention is where it starts.

Really, with eight billion people and rapidly rising, with more wars around the world than in WWII, climate change, overexploitation of natural resources, salination, desertification and loss of clean water (which you mentioned) the suffering is locked in. There is nothing that can be done, even with the best intentions. All we can do now is either try to help others locally, or simply observe in nervous awe at how things could go so pear-shaped so quickly. Many will be left to fend for themselves, just as we will have to fend for ourselves if our societies break down or fall into war.

It's as if humanity has been sitting under the sword of Damacles, and the rope holding it up is becoming ever thinner.

[value]

Where there is a will, there is a way.

It starts with the intention.

It is seen that water infrastructure in Iraq and Libya was destroyed intentionally, not just by bombing but also through politically 'planned' sanctions. That is opposite to securing drinking water for millions of children in the Middle East. In that context it would be nonsense in my opinion to argue that suffering won't stop. What can be done, can be done.

Evidence exists that U.S. planners planned the destruction of Iraq's water systems. A declassified document from the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) - titled "Iraq's Water Treatment Vulnerability" -outlined with deadly precision how it would take six months before the water system is fully degraded.

Sanctions blocked drink water tankers on the grounds that they might be used to haul chemical weapons. This was at a time when the major cause of child deaths in Iraq was a lack of access to potable water.

A child in Iraq
child-iraq.jpg (35.25 KiB) Viewed 540 times

My philosophy would argue that life is fundamentally a fight, but also that philosophy can make it a good fight.

[value]

There is never any moral justification for attacking and harming others.

Albert Einstein once said: "intellectuals solve problems, geniuses prevent them"...

As with the saying, one has to make the first step.

A forgotten plea to prevent the war in Iraq

Before the 2003 war in Iraq I noticed a plea by a group of scientists in Scientific American who argued that the war could be prevented by solving the extreme water crisis that the country was facing.

After doing a bit more research, I discovered that water systems in Iraq were specifically targeted and that even drink water tankers were blocked from reaching Iraq, while ultimately over 1.5 million civilian people - including 565,000 children - would die primarily because of lack of access to drinking water.

Children in Iraq
water-crisis.jpg (49.17 KiB) Viewed 538 times

A pattern arose. The NATO did the same thing in Libya in 2011 and is now accused of not just a war crime, but of deliberate genocide of the people in Libya.

(2015) War crime: NATO deliberately destroyed Libya's water infrastructure
The deliberate bombing of Libya's water infrastructure, with the knowledge that doing so would result in massive deaths of the population, is not just a war crime, but a genocidal strategy.
Source: https://theecologist.org/2015/may/14/wa ... astructure

An award winning journalist has made a documentary about it called "Killing the Children of Iraq".

Award winning journalist John Pilger
john-pilger.jpg (32.67 KiB) Viewed 538 times

Sanctioned Genocide: Killing the Children of Iraq
Evidence exists that U.S. planners planned the destruction of Iraq's water systems. US/UK military forces committed war crimes by depriving civilians of drinking water. The vast majority of the 1.5 million civilian deaths were caused not by the direct impact of bombs but by targeted destruction of water systems. A documentary film by award-winning journalist John Pilger uncovers details.
https://gmodebate.org/peace/#pilger

I've placed a promotion in over 50 languages on a website for clean mobility that is visited by people from over 200 countries per week on average.

Water crisis in Iran
iran-water-crisis.png (155.39 KiB) Viewed 538 times

In Iran today, some people literally fight over the last drops of water.

(2023) Water wars on the horizon in Iran: Some are chasing the last drops of water
Conflicts spread over the increasingly scarce resource.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/21/worl ... imate.html

Hopefully something can be learned from the forgotten plea by scientists before the war in Iraq. As of 2024, there are technologies that can extract water from air and solve the water crisis. The war in Iraq costed an estimated $3 trillion USD. Just a fraction of that amount might enable the creation of drink water farms that would solve the water crisis and prevent an escalation of conflicts.

In Iraq, after the water systems were destroyed (and the Government of Iraq was blamed): "The lack of access to clean drinking water led to widespread public unrest and protests, causing the emergence of the Islamic State (IS) and its violent campaign against the government. "

(2020) Water Crisis, A Bigger Threat Than Terrorism
Extreme water scarcity and wide disparities in public water supplies are potent ingredients for conflict. Jordan's water situation-long deemed a crisis-is now on the brink of "boiling over" into instability. Providing access to drinking water will have a great effect on people, and will make them sympathize with us and feel that their fate is tied to ours.

https://gmodebate.org/peace/

[Sy Borg]

Oh come now, you know that Iraq doesn't matter. It should matter but, alas, it seems that only Palestine matters.

Nor do the concentration camps for Uyghurs in China matter. You'd think Muslims and Palestinian supporters would care, but they don't care one bit.

The genocide of indigenous people in Darfur in Sudan doesn't matter either. If Jews or whites aren't doing it, fine.

No one talks about Russian Muslims forced to live on reservations in polluted areas, and are not even allowed to speak their native languages.

No one talks about how Egypt and Turkey send Uyghur families back to China after they have applied for asylum.

No one talks about Israel providing asylum to African refugees, rejected by many Muslim countries.

No, only Palestinians matter, already tyrannised and traumatised by Hamas's misrule - and they only matters if those pesky Jews are doing it. Everyone else has a free pass.