Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sculptor1]

An interesting new poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Su..

"Wide public support for Hamas’ offensive on October the 7th, but the vast majority denies that Hamas has committed atrocities against Israeli civilians. The war increases Hamas’ popularity and greatly weakens the standing of the PA and its leadership; nonetheless, the majority of the Palestinians remains unsupportive of Hamas. Support for armed struggle rises, particularly in the West Bank and in response to settlers’ violence, but support for the two-state solution rises somewhat. The overwhelming majority condemns the positions taken by the US and the main European powers during the war and express the belief that they have lost their moral compass.…"

Where is Netanyahu's moral compass?
Points to hell

[Pattern-chaser]

We have said much here about the current conflict, and about the history that lead up to it. But little has been said about a solution.

Palestine would prefer a return to the early 1900s, when they just lived in their long-time homeland. Israel would prefer total ownership of Palestine. But neither of these extreme solutions would be acceptable to the other side. So some sort of compromise seems necessary.

As someone with sympathies for the plight of the Palestinian people, I might suggest a return to 1948 borders, but perhaps it is more balanced to suggest that Israel withdraw its soldiers and its paramilitary 'settlers' behind 1967 borders?

Is this a possible compromise solution, do we think?

[value]

We have said much here about the current conflict, and about the history that lead up to it. But little has been said about a solution.

Just follow MacGyver.

What would MacGyver do?
what-would-macgyver-do.png (59.29 KiB) Viewed 2019 times

Lévinasian philosophical wisdom on peace summed up in one sentence: "You are smarter than this".

AI: "MacGyver's statement "You are smarter than this" could be seen as an example of a Lévinasian eschatological vision, as it encourages the person to rise above the cycle of violence and revenge, and to choose a more intelligent and peaceful path. This aligns with Lévinas' view that eschatological vision allows for a transcendence of the totality and a relation to infinity."

A repost:

I hope that this topic is helpful for preventing atrocities for people!

I have been promoting a link to this discussion on a website that is visited from 200 countries per week, which is becoming more trafficked daily from all countries in the region. The two latest traffic alerts from Google were for Saudi Arabia and Israel.

In this topic I have been proposing that philosophy should be held responsible, with diverse independent reasoning for entry to that argument. The primary argument has been that intellect and reason is a higher good than war and revenge, which I have been asserting for years.

My assertion: "Within the context of reason, there is no place for evil."

Philosopher Immanuel Kant wrote in "Religion within the Boundaries of Mere Reason,": "pure reason is the faculty of concepts, and concepts are not concerned with the inclinations, but only with the understanding and its object"

Therefore, according to Kant (who authored one of the most profound works on reason), pure reason cannot be the source of evil, which arises from the inclinations and desires of the human will. Kant believed that every human being has the capacity to resist evil and choose the moral path, which is the path of reason.

Reason and intellect is a higher good than war and revenge.

What would MacGyver do?

Yesterday I watched an episode of MacGyver who, in an attempt to stop someone from seeking revenge for the murder of his brother, said "You are smarter than this".

The one seeking revenge chose intellect and won. This confirmed and provided an example for the idea.

Intellect and reason is a higher good and enables people to win. Therefore my argument: philosophy can and should be held responsible.


A philosophical project on the wisdom of MacGyver.

What would MacGyver do? An excerpt from the revised edition of Life Changing: A Philosophical Guide
Angus MacGyver thought when he retired from the secret service, he’d put his days of danger behind him. But MacGyver was forever getting caught in life and death situations. Fortunately, MacGyver had a preternatural knack for improvising his way out of them. ... Thirty years on, MacGyver is more a cultural icon than ever before.
https://philosophyforchange.wordpress.c ... uide-2016/

Philosophy can be the solution, and because of it, philosophy should be held responsible.

My conclusion: "Modern man is to be expected to evolve beyond barbaric practices such as war and revenge if it intends to secure longer term prosperity. Intelligence before practice means overcoming darkness before it was ever present, and thus, to prevent war and revenge in favour of reason."

American philosopher Henry David Thoreau:

"Whatever my own practice may be, I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual moral improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came in contact with the more civilized."

The following organization, similar to eco-feminism, seeks to establish a basis for peace in efforts to protect nature.

ecopeace-isreal-palestine.jpg (125.74 KiB) Viewed 2019 times

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EcoPeace_Middle_East

Arab–Israeli peace projects
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%8 ... e_projects

There are rumors that Adam Sandler was in love with a Palestinian girl in real life.

The love affair of Adam Sandler and the correlated film that shows that Israelis and Palestinians can flourish together side by side, is described in the OP: viewtopic.php?p=444410#p444410


For a professional scholarly philosophical perspective on how philosophy can be the solution, the following post in this topic describes the work of Emmanuel Lévinas - an icon of Western philosophy that is researched by dedicated scholars today.

Lévinas: Of peace there can only be an eschatology.

Lévinasian philosophical eschatology means "a vision of beyond", which is what is called upon when MacGyver says to the person seeking revenge: "You are smarter than this", so you can find an advanced theory for the idea in his philosophy.

AI: "MacGyver's statement "You are smarter than this" could be seen as an example of an eschatological vision, as it encourages the person to rise above the cycle of violence and revenge, and to choose a more intelligent and peaceful path. This aligns with Lévinas' view that eschatological vision allows for a transcendence of the totality and a relation to infinity."

Introduction to Lévinas his work on peace, and his perspective on the conflict:
viewtopic.php?p=445181#p445181

Philosophy evidently has the capacity to provide a solution. Therefore philosophy should be held responsible.

[Conshelle Dwright Williams]

That's a fascinating interpretation of "You Don't Mess with the Zohan"! It's intriguing how films can present complex issues like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a comedic yet thoughtful way. The idea of unity and finding common ground is indeed a powerful message.

And as for the rumors about Adam Sandler, well, who knows? Real life can sometimes be as surprising as the plots of our favorite movies.

[Whatisman]

We know now that Bibi purposely funneled money to Hamas to prevent a two state solution, that is, he had no respect for the idea of sovereignty of the Palestinian people. This lead directly to the strengthening of Hamas and the Oct 7 attack which also could have been prevented due to the intelligence that the government had. The lack of empathy, the lack of respect for Palestine blew up in Israel's face and now its on a Humeian passionate biblical revenge campaign that is spiraling into uncontrolled depravity, killing their own and killing Christians in a Catholic church.

It seems that dehumanization of a people is not a viable solution unless a complete ethnic cleansing can be achieved. The submission to the passions and rejection of reason inevitably creates uncontained blowback. We know that Hamas in its essence is a savage terror group, but Palestinian recognition could have prevented the growth of Hamas in the first place. Therefore it seems that the only way forward is in fact Palestinian recognition as humans with their own natural rights, as much as Israelis. From there negotiations can arise. Or is mutual respect not a factor here? Is Hobbesian destruction of the weak a valid condition, maybe the only solution in this part of the world that operates from a non Western, religious and ethnic moral relativism?

[Good_Egg]

I'm thinking that reason is a tool, a method that can be used for ends that are good or ill, that has no inherent connection with the aim of peace.

To those who have the power to do it, there is a strategy of deterrence by overwhelming force. "If you start a fight by punching me once I will retaliate by punching you ten times".

It can be effective, against an opponent who will feel the pain of those punches and therefore reckon the exchange as a loss.

But if the head doesn't feel the pain of the body, it can be countered by a strategy of playing the victim. "Look how he's hurting me, how he's bullying me".

Unless and until our philosophy gets beyond thinking in terms of victimhood, we will be vulnerable to this sort of manipulation.

[A Material Girl]

Indeed. Certainly this is a Machiavellian position, that the sovereign must deal in the material world and cannot be bothered with the metaphysical. Hence what is moral "good" is of a consequentialist nature in the material, ie: do what must be done for the good of my people, even it it means killing others.

However, I think there should be space for material solutions based on philosophical ideas. Applied philosophy, if you will. I'll try to post to this end, get the conversations started.

I completely agree with you.

You gotta do what you gotta do, man. At least that's what I do.

And, speaking of creating a suitable space for discussing material solutions based on philosophical ideas (applied philosophy), I invite you to explore one such perfect space with me, here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19207

[popeye1945]

An occupier cannot claim self-defense, this occupation is well within the tradition of colonialism, as is the American empire. Zionism is racism, and it is presently in the process of genocide supported by the American Empire. This is the evil much of the world wishes to end, and is in the process of doing so. This conflict has shown the world the true nature of both of these evil entities, naked in their inhumanity. This is World War Three, do not wait for it to look like previous wars, those wars are no longer feasible. America has war by proxy and forms of covert and overt violence down to a science, but it is getting a wakeup call. Its passion for world dominance through all forms of violence including economic warfare is in check. America has been a brutal master, and the world has been subdued in its preparation, a new day has dawned. BRICS FOREVER, THE END OF COLONIALISM!!

[Sculptor1]

An occupier cannot claim self-defense, this occupation is well within the tradition of colonialism, as is the American empire. Zionism is racism, and it is presently in the process of genocide supported by the American Empire. This is the evil much of the world wishes to end, and is in the process of doing so. This conflict has shown the world the true nature of both of these evil entities, naked in their inhumanity. This is World War Three, do not wait for it to look like previous wars, those wars are no longer feasible. America has war by proxy and forms of covert and overt violence down to a science, but it is getting a wakeup call. Its passion for world dominance through all forms of violence including economic warfare is in check. America has been a brutal master, and the world has been subdued in its preparation, a new day has dawned. BRICS FOREVER, THE END OF COLONIALISM!!

True.
Israel was invented in England in 1918. Some saw it as a way to end its "jewish problem" by exporting jews to Palestine. And as after WW1 that migration started. At that time the jewish population of Palestine was under 5%.
But the start of the 20thC was a time when the world world defined itself in terms of races. Actually the intolerance was one of the key mechanisms by which the British Empire held power over "wogs & ******".
You can still hear the echoes of that time when Netanyahu calls Palestinians "animals and monsters"
After WW2 the British, having been given authority over Palestine by the so-called "League of Nations" after the Ottoman Empire was sliced up by the cartographers Sykes/Pichot , tried to work on a settlement with the Arabian powers over the region. Another cartographer Lawrence of Arabia had promised the land to Faisal, and the agreement was some way off.
At the same time several Jewish terrorists groups were busy murdering people. And famously bombed the King David Hotel where the British High Commission quartered, killing 91 and injuring 46.
This act set the tone for history.
So on the one side with have a "legitimate" authority with all the credibility of their racist imperial arrogance up against an impatient bunch of terrorists who seized control largely funded by Americans.
The transition to power was NOT legitimate. It was a coup enacted before the termination of the British Mandate.
Despite Israel being a terrorist state many powerful jewish interests supported, and funded the theft of land.
The US wishing to be the new bully sensing the fall of the British Empire whose left wing PM was planning to give it all back, decided to make Israel its first post war colony and handed over all its surplus WW2 ordinance particulrly the Persing tank which which the Israel would subdue the neighbouring Arabs in the forthcoming wars.
In effect this proxy terrorists state is used by the US to help keep the Middle East in a state of political instability.

[Purity Kihiko]

This being lengthy and complex ,I entirely base in finding the root cause and solution.

[Consul]

Everything that happens has a context. This situation has a lengthy historical context, and much more besides. No skirmish happens independent of the battle; no battle independent of the war, and so on.

No matter how lengthy the historical context is, there is absolutely no moral justification for Hamas' barbaric terrorist crimes!

[Pattern-chaser]

No matter how lengthy the historical context is, there is absolutely no moral justification for Hamas' barbaric terrorist crimes!

No matter how lengthy the historical context is, there is absolutely no moral justification for Zionists' barbaric terrorist crimes!



There is never any moral justification for attacking and harming others.

[popeye1945]

An occupier cannot claim self-defense, this occupation is well within the tradition of colonialism, as is the American empire. Zionism is racism, and it is presently in the process of genocide supported by the American Empire. This is the evil much of the world wishes to end, and is in the process of doing so. This conflict has shown the world the true nature of both of these evil entities, naked in their inhumanity. This is World War Three, do not wait for it to look like previous wars, those wars are no longer feasible. America has war by proxy and forms of covert and overt violence down to a science, but it is getting a wakeup call. Its passion for world dominance through all forms of violence including economic warfare is in check. America has been a brutal master, and the world has been subdued in its preparation, a new day has dawned. BRICS FOREVER, THE END OF COLONIALISM!!

True.
Israel was invented in England in 1918. Some saw it as a way to end its "jewish problem" by exporting jews to Palestine. And as after WW1 that migration started. At that time the jewish population of Palestine was under 5%.
But the start of the 20thC was a time when the world world defined itself in terms of races. Actually the intolerance was one of the key mechanisms by which the British Empire held power over "wogs & ******".
You can still hear the echoes of that time when Netanyahu calls Palestinians "animals and monsters"
After WW2 the British, having been given authority over Palestine by the so-called "League of Nations" after the Ottoman Empire was sliced up by the cartographers Sykes/Pichot , tried to work on a settlement with the Arabian powers over the region. Another cartographer Lawrence of Arabia had promised the land to Faisal, and the agreement was some way off.
At the same time several Jewish terrorists groups were busy murdering people. And famously bombed the King David Hotel where the British High Commission quartered, killing 91 and injuring 46.


Sculptor,

JUST EXCELLENT!!
This act set the tone for history.
So on the one side with have a "legitimate" authority with all the credibility of their racist imperial arrogance up against an impatient bunch of terrorists who seized control largely funded by Americans.
The transition to power was NOT legitimate. It was a coup enacted before the termination of the British Mandate.
Despite Israel being a terrorist state many powerful jewish interests supported, and funded the theft of land.
The US wishing to be the new bully sensing the fall of the British Empire whose left wing PM was planning to give it all back, decided to make Israel its first post war colony and handed over all its surplus WW2 ordinance particulrly the Persing tank which which the Israel would subdue the neighbouring Arabs in the forthcoming wars.
In effect this proxy terrorists state is used by the US to help keep the Middle East in a state of political instability.

[Sculptor1]

An occupier cannot claim self-defense, this occupation is well within the tradition of colonialism, as is the American empire. Zionism is racism, and it is presently in the process of genocide supported by the American Empire. This is the evil much of the world wishes to end, and is in the process of doing so. This conflict has shown the world the true nature of both of these evil entities, naked in their inhumanity. This is World War Three, do not wait for it to look like previous wars, those wars are no longer feasible. America has war by proxy and forms of covert and overt violence down to a science, but it is getting a wakeup call. Its passion for world dominance through all forms of violence including economic warfare is in check. America has been a brutal master, and the world has been subdued in its preparation, a new day has dawned. BRICS FOREVER, THE END OF COLONIALISM!!

True.
Israel was invented in England in 1918. Some saw it as a way to end its "jewish problem" by exporting jews to Palestine. And as after WW1 that migration started. At that time the jewish population of Palestine was under 5%.
But the start of the 20thC was a time when the world world defined itself in terms of races. Actually the intolerance was one of the key mechanisms by which the British Empire held power over "wogs & ******".
You can still hear the echoes of that time when Netanyahu calls Palestinians "animals and monsters"
After WW2 the British, having been given authority over Palestine by the so-called "League of Nations" after the Ottoman Empire was sliced up by the cartographers Sykes/Pichot , tried to work on a settlement with the Arabian powers over the region. Another cartographer Lawrence of Arabia had promised the land to Faisal, and the agreement was some way off.
At the same time several Jewish terrorists groups were busy murdering people. And famously bombed the King David Hotel where the British High Commission quartered, killing 91 and injuring 46.


Sculptor,

JUST EXCELLENT!!
This act set the tone for history.
So on the one side with have a "legitimate" authority with all the credibility of their racist imperial arrogance up against an impatient bunch of terrorists who seized control largely funded by Americans.
The transition to power was NOT legitimate. It was a coup enacted before the termination of the British Mandate.
Despite Israel being a terrorist state many powerful jewish interests supported, and funded the theft of land.
The US wishing to be the new bully sensing the fall of the British Empire whose left wing PM was planning to give it all back, decided to make Israel its first post war colony and handed over all its surplus WW2 ordinance particulrly the Persing tank which which the Israel would subdue the neighbouring Arabs in the forthcoming wars.
In effect this proxy terrorists state is used by the US to help keep the Middle East in a state of political instability.

History is important.
Many of the children who were thrown out of their homes and forced into Gaza in the late 1940s are now the old people of today who have passed the knoweldge onto their children, and grandchildren.

Now the 24,000 orphans created since October are the new rank and file of the Hamas recruits for the next generation. What are their choices?
If Israel has a plan then it can only be this - to continue the cycle of violence so that they may continue their genocide.

[Sculptor1]

Everything that happens has a context. This situation has a lengthy historical context, and much more besides. No skirmish happens independent of the battle; no battle independent of the war, and so on.

No matter how lengthy the historical context is, there is absolutely no moral justification for Hamas' barbaric terrorist crimes!

Your words ring hollow.
Do you think taking hostages is bad? Really?
Think about the 10,000 Palestinians already in illegal detention at the start of October. No access to legal services, routinely raped and beaten. Many of them children