Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Philosophy_of_Guitar]

Interesting discussion on belief in God, Philosophy_of_Guitar and Stoppelmann. And I was especially interested to read that so many pop songs are in C major with an accidental here and there. And that the notes of the C major scale are what we commonly hear in nature. I feel it is a "happier", "easier" key than some others.

Yup And even the sad songs are in E minor which is the closest key to C Major in terms of the most efficient to hit the "sad side of the brain" swiftly; only one accidental. F# is the one accidental in E minor.

In the Harmonic Series, the first F frequency that comes up is between F and F#. There's something very mathematical about how music interacts with our brains (and thus our minds), but that doesn't make it less deep... There's no juju magic, but truth is magic and deep.

However, I wonder about AI... An AI won a painting contest where they didn't know that it was an AI who did the painting!!!... I see the wonders, I see the pitfalls... 50% or more of what makes music good is that it is born of human imperfection, so...

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Stay wise and curious.

[Lagayascienza]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, too. Philosophy of Guitar. And to all members of the Online Philosophy club.

[Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, too. Philosophy of Guitar. And to all members of the Online Philosophy club.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, too.

[Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD]

What makes me believe that the God of my religion exists?

My religion is Buddhism, and Buddhism is an a-theistic religion :

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19194

and therefore I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

[Philosophy_of_Guitar]

What makes me believe that the God of my religion exists?

My religion is Buddhism, and Buddhism is an a-theistic religion :

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19194

and therefore I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

Hahahahahaha. Good one

Nah you do. You know why? Because you replied to this thread

So yes there is no ultimate god in Buddhism BUT you still need to prove the supernatural elements:

- Can you prove that Samsara/Nirvana is real? (Even through logical argument)
- Can you prove that Karma is real? (Even through logical argument)

[Pattern-chaser]

Finally, QM is difficult to understand, and it can be misused to justify things that aren't justifiable. But it can also be used to dismiss ideas we don't like, by pretending that they aren't underpinned by a theory too complex for most to understand, when perhaps they are. QM is a two-edged sword, in that regard.

IMO that's a wrong framing... Quantum Mechanics can't be use to justify anything unjustifiable, it's just that crooks pretend to use its principles when they only use the name. They don't anything about it.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how you can use Quantum Mechanics to discard ideas that are true. It's real science. It can't contradict oxygen or that the human body is mostly made of water.

I think you misunderstood. I was referring only to the con-men (or women) who might take advantage of how hard it is to understand Quantum Theory, to tell people their snake-oil is supported by QT.

As for the rest of what you wrote: good post!

[Philosophy_of_Guitar]

Finally, QM is difficult to understand, and it can be misused to justify things that aren't justifiable. But it can also be used to dismiss ideas we don't like, by pretending that they aren't underpinned by a theory too complex for most to understand, when perhaps they are. QM is a two-edged sword, in that regard.

IMO that's a wrong framing... Quantum Mechanics can't be use to justify anything unjustifiable, it's just that crooks pretend to use its principles when they only use the name. They don't anything about it.

On the other hand, I'm not sure how you can use Quantum Mechanics to discard ideas that are true. It's real science. It can't contradict oxygen or that the human body is mostly made of water.

I think you misunderstood. I was referring only to the con-men (or women) who might take advantage of how hard it is to understand Quantum Theory, to tell people their snake-oil is supported by QT.

As for the rest of what you wrote: good post!

Oh I see what you mean: in and of itself the bar of entry level understanding to quantum physics is so high that creates all varieties snake oil salesmen. Yes absolutely agreed.

Merry Christmas again

[Stoppelmann]

I have always understood music theory to be a systematic study of the principles and elements that govern the creation, structure, and understanding of music, which provides a framework for analysing, composing, and interpreting music, and therefore encompasses a wide range of concepts and topics. It is this broad scope that I didn’t see incorporated in making music, especially considering that many modern musicians don’t even read music.

Well here's the thing... Reading music is like 5% if not less of music theory... So of course most of the greatest modern musicians don't "read" music... Even then, I don't "read" music, at least not fluently. I haven't practised in decades, I can't do what you call "sight-reading"; that is I can't look at sheet music these days and play a piece for you as I play... But in 2023 (2024 AHEM), that's a fairly useless skill unless you need to play a lot of Classical or Church music... Consider that The Beatles is the most successful musical act in history, did they know how to read music? Probably not... Did they know how to string chords together according to a mode? Absolutely (Beatles even knew Eastern exotic modes)! 99% of good modern musician knows relevant theory, even those who just play by "feeling" (they still know pentatonic scale in and out). This includes Beatles, Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Nirvana, Demi Lovato, Spice Girls, Ariana Grande, Rick Rubin, Bob Rock, of course Dream Theater, Metallica, Slayer, Rush etc. etc.

People who are very versed in music theory AND ear training can "see" music.

There's a reason why C D E F G A B are "natural" notes. They reflect common sounds of nature and the sound frequencies that vibrate with our brains the easiest. C D E F G A B are the notes for C Natural Major. This is why 99% of pop songs are from this key (with F# added here and there).

If you're mathematically inclined, the Harmonic Series may give you some insights about how music works on our brains (and thus our minds). It's not magic, it's math, physics and biology that makes music sound good (and neuroscience and psychology and sociology, yes... But at the base, it's just math, physics and biology).

Merry Christmas!

Cheers.

Merry Christmas to you as well!

[e_knaapen]

I am willing to believe in God and to convert to a religion as long as it's epistemically justified.

Then you should resign yourself to a life of atheism or agnosticism. For there is no formal and precise "justification" for any aspect of religion. That isn't what religion is about, as I understand it. I have religious/spiritual beliefs, but I have no "justification" for them, not in the sense that you mean.

Because we are not able to prove or disprove the existence of God, answering the question "does God exist?" will involve some faith (as you say- even for atheists). We can decide to be true agnostics; but, per the law of non-contradiction, God either does or does not exist, so an agnostic doesn't give him/herself a chance at answering life's greatest question correctly. If God exists, it is absolutely the most important thing to have faith, and to start living life with Him.

Epistemic justification isn't possible either way- it takes faith. Partially, it's your choice- what do you want to have faith in? But also, I would recommend reaching out to God in prayer, and asking Him to reveal Himself to you. "You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart."

[Stoppelmann]

I am willing to believe in God and to convert to a religion as long as it's epistemically justified.

Then you should resign yourself to a life of atheism or agnosticism. For there is no formal and precise "justification" for any aspect of religion. That isn't what religion is about, as I understand it. I have religious/spiritual beliefs, but I have no "justification" for them, not in the sense that you mean.

Because we are not able to prove or disprove the existence of God, answering the question "does God exist?" will involve some faith (as you say- even for atheists). We can decide to be true agnostics; but, per the law of non-contradiction, God either does or does not exist, so an agnostic doesn't give him/herself a chance at answering life's greatest question correctly. If God exists, it is absolutely the most important thing to have faith, and to start living life with Him.

Epistemic justification isn't possible either way- it takes faith. Partially, it's your choice- what do you want to have faith in? But also, I would recommend reaching out to God in prayer, and asking Him to reveal Himself to you. "You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart."

Have we defined what "exist" means?

The requirement of having objective reality or being assumes that we can inspect what people call God, and confirm his existence. We can't even inspect dark matter or a number of phenomena that we suspect exist. Is there much chance of going beyond the agnostic position?

[Pattern-chaser]

I am willing to believe in God and to convert to a religion as long as it's epistemically justified.

Then you should resign yourself to a life of atheism or agnosticism. For there is no formal and precise "justification" for any aspect of religion. That isn't what religion is about, as I understand it. I have religious/spiritual beliefs, but I have no "justification" for them, not in the sense that you mean.

Because we are not able to prove or disprove the existence of God, answering the question "does God exist?" will involve some faith (as you say- even for atheists). We can decide to be true agnostics; but, per the law of non-contradiction, God either does or does not exist, so an agnostic doesn't give him/herself a chance at answering life's greatest question correctly. If God exists, it is absolutely the most important thing to have faith, and to start living life with Him.

Epistemic justification isn't possible either way- it takes faith. Partially, it's your choice- what do you want to have faith in? But also, I would recommend reaching out to God in prayer, and asking Him to reveal Himself to you. "You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart."

[My highlighting]

Objectivists often say such things, but what is the point in saying "It either is or it isn't", when there is no way to tell which one is correct? If you can't tell which one is 'right', what's the point?

[A Material Girl]

Because we are not able to prove or disprove the existence of God, answering the question "does God exist?" will involve some faith (as you say- even for atheists). We can decide to be true agnostics; but, per the law of non-contradiction, God either does or does not exist, so an agnostic doesn't give him/herself a chance at answering life's greatest question correctly. If God exists, it is absolutely the most important thing to have faith, and to start living life with Him.

Epistemic justification isn't possible either way- it takes faith. Partially, it's your choice- what do you want to have faith in? But also, I would recommend reaching out to God in prayer, and asking Him to reveal Himself to you. "You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart."

If I may ask you, have you asked God in prayer to reveal Himself to you?

[LuckyR]

Because we are not able to prove or disprove the existence of God, answering the question "does God exist?" will involve some faith (as you say- even for atheists). We can decide to be true agnostics; but, per the law of non-contradiction, God either does or does not exist, so an agnostic doesn't give him/herself a chance at answering life's greatest question correctly. If God exists, it is absolutely the most important thing to have faith, and to start living life with Him.

Epistemic justification isn't possible either way- it takes faith. Partially, it's your choice- what do you want to have faith in? But also, I would recommend reaching out to God in prayer, and asking Him to reveal Himself to you. "You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart."

If I may ask you, have you asked God in prayer to reveal Himself to you?

No, what happens when you do that?

[JJJ]

I find it interesting that the majority of religious people have no problem in recognising the false gods of religions other than their own. They will go along with all the logic as to why these gods cannot exist but if you apply the exact same reasoning in regard to their religion’s god…..they cannot see it.

I think it would be safe to say that at least 95% of the world religious population are what they are because of the random chance of who their parents are and the location they were born. I was raised as a Christian so I read the bible cover to cover- twice and it took just three incidences from that book to convince me that the god of the bible does not exist…

[JJJ]

Incident 1 The bible states that god is love and he is all knowing etc. In a nutshell, at least according to the bible, the evil that exists today comes down a challenge by Satan that he could lead all mankind away from serving god. When god asks Satan did he tempt Adam & Eve, not only does Satan readily admit to it but he goes on to challenge god in regard to the rest of mankind.

So god, the alpha and the omega, with nothing to prove to anyone and least of all to himself, the one who knows the end before the beginning, accepts this challenge and gives Satan the opportunity to do as he wants…..and it’s because of nothing more than a dare. I’ve been told god’s integrity was challenged…. so what? If the god of the bible is who it states god to be, that he is complete then should he not be beyond being challenged or goaded into some futile test that is just going to cause harm and suffering, especially when he would already know the result?

But no he gives Satan free reign to cause all the misery in the world until god says enough. Until then he is sitting back watching the suffering and doing nothing. He can fix everything, with one snap of his fingers but at this stage at least, he is choosing not to.
Is this believable? Put it into a real-life situation….. say my brother come to stay with me and I discovered that during his stay, he got two of my children addicted to heroin and they overdosed and died. When I approach him and ask did he do this? He not only admits to it but he then challenges me stating that if I allow him to try, he could get all my children addicted to heroin (take note I have to allow this as did god, or it would not happen) would I say have it and we’ll see how they go? Or would I as a loving father remove him from my family and take steps to ensure that he never comes near them again?

Incident 2. God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son as proof of his love for god. You cannot test love and if I know that would not god? You can test weaknesses, lust, greed, etc but not love. Besides when the bible refers to the people in the who were sacrificing their children to the god Baal…. The bible states that sacrificing children was detestable to god and something that had never even entered into god’s thoughts….. and yet here he is telling Abraham to sacrifice his child.

Incident 3. Job. Job apparently was the most faithful good god loving guy around at that time. God says to Satan have you been checking out Job a man who loves me and is more righteous than anyone else? Satan says yeah well look how you bless him, he is rich he has many children, livestock etc, take that all away and Job will curse you….. So what does god do? Well you would think that the challenge in the garden of Eden was enough but no…. the devil is once again able to goad god into doing what I believe is an evil act….

He tells the devil that he can take everything that Job has just don’t touch him and the devil sees that all Job’s children die, he loses all his material possessions but Job holds fast in his integrity toward god. Are we done? No…. not yet. When god says to the devil see he still loves me…. the devil says okay, okay, he is willing to lose what he has in possessions but if you touch the man himself then he will curse you. So god allows the devil to inflict Job with boils and disease, in fact he tells the devil to do what you want to him but don’t take his life.

And when Job’s wife says to Job you must have done something bad to deserve this all Job says is ‘I don’t know why god is doing (allowing) this to me?” And for this Job gets chastised by god, not commended for holding fast to his integrity but chastised for simply stating a fact…. He had no idea why god was doing this to him.

God basically says who are you to question me? Were you there when I created everything etc? In other words how can you understand my actions?
When I discuss these three incidents with Christians they tell me that I’m missing the big picture, that we humans can’t possibly understand god’s purpose. Okay, but then if this is true, then god has no right to judge us. If these three incidents above were attributed to a human ruler, history would not be kind to that ruler.

There is a creative force, energy, but as to exactly what it is, or whether or not there is any purpose to why the physical universe came to be no one knows and anyone who tells that they do know, well they are probably trying to sell you religion and its gods.