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Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

Humans-Only Club for Discussion & Debate

A one-of-a-kind oasis of intelligent, in-depth, productive, civil debate.

Topics are uncensored, meaning even extremely controversial viewpoints can be presented and argued for, but our Forum Rules strictly require all posters to stay on-topic and never engage in ad hominems or personal attacks.


Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
#451569
Joshua10 wrote: December 21st, 2023, 3:45 am
Generally accepted “Cult of Shiva” science has no source for its philosophical starting point guess that equal but opposite forces in nature cancel out.

We know that equal but opposite electromagnetic forces in nature do not cancel out.
I do completely agree with you, Josh.

Fortunately for this topic, "Generally accepted Cult of Shiva science"
has never been part of Buddhism. :D

BTW, in my humble opinion, "Generally accepted Cult of Shiva”
is not science in any sense of the word.
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
#451570
JackDaydream wrote: December 21st, 2023, 7:19 am In my sentence about Kant, in my previous post, I meant to say that he saw the establishment of ideas beyond the mind as problematic. Nevertheless, in the error I made, I see it as an ambiguity of Kant, especially in the two aspects of reason, a priori and a posteri.
Dear Jack Daydream,

You are a deep and nuanced philosopher, my friend.
I am very impressed with your vast knowledge and wisdom.

Ambiguity is unavoidable. It might be seen as a "curse", or it might be a "blessing"? It is a permanent feature, nor a "bug", and therefore it is here to stay with us.

Emmanuel Kant has been long recognized in Buddhism to be a valuable philosopher.

According to Buddhism, there are no ideas beyond the mind, because Buddhist philosophy is part of a broader Eastern non-dual Idealism (see the very long quote in my post above).
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Pattern-chaser
#451577
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 21st, 2023, 9:51 am Our dear self is so familiar to us that it simply seems to be too obvious to talk about. We are very busy with everything else. Not only all serious historical religious and spiritual traditions of the past and present, but even modern Western materialistic-atheistic science recognizes the self to be a legitimate object of scientific research.
So it does. How extraordinary! Isn't it true that some Eastern religion-philosophies consider self to be an illusion? Isn't Buddhism one of them?
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
User avatar
By Pattern-chaser
#451579
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 21st, 2023, 10:55 am Ambiguity is unavoidable. It might be seen as a "curse", or it might be a "blessing"? It is a permanent feature, nor a "bug", and therefore it is here to stay with us.
I have always thought that ambiguity was a consequence of us not having one word, one label, for every different thing. If we did, we would all need active vocabularies of millions of words. Too big for us. So we assign multiple meanings to individual words. This leads unavoidably to ambiguity, I think. I suspect that this aspect of language might just reflect something similar in our thinking patterns, but I'm not even sure how to start delving into that. 😐

But ambiguity, like symbolic thought, is also not a significant part of Buddhism. 😀
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
#451580
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:13 pm
Isn't it true that some Eastern religion-philosophies consider the self to be an illusion?

Isn't Buddhism one of them?
No, Buddhism is not one of them. Trust me. I have studied Buddhism long enough and with the highest Buddhist masters in the position of highest formal authority, like for example the XIV Dalai Lama of Tibet.

As the popular street knowledge has it, it is possible to colloquially phrase it that Eastern religion-philosophies consider the self to be an illusion, however, this assertion heavily depends on one's ontological definition of what such an illusion is. :D

Pattern-chaser, would you believe that your dear self is some sort of illusion?
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
#451582
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:19 pm
So we assign multiple meanings to individual words. This leads unavoidably to ambiguity, I think.
Would you agree that there are also non-verbal perceptual ambiguities ?
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Pattern-chaser
#451583
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:29 pm Pattern-chaser, would you believe that your dear self is some sort of illusion?
Perhaps I would if I were convinced, but I have discovered nothing, so far, that would persuade me that my self is, or is not, "some sort of illusion".
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
User avatar
By Pattern-chaser
#451584
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:19 pm So we assign multiple meanings to individual words. This leads unavoidably to ambiguity, I think.
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:33 pm Would you agree that there are also non-verbal perceptual ambiguities ?
I think so, yes.
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus Location: England
#451585

Pattern-chaser, would you believe that your dear self
is some sort of illusion, AS OPPOSED TO THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE REAL ?
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
User avatar
By Hereandnow
#451586
Ultimately though, perhaps this ‘neutral’ kind of ‘presence’ might, as Advaita Vedanta suggests, actually be a deeper kind of consciousness –“pure experience” in James’ terms or ‘pure awareness’ in Advaita Vedanta terms. Since cosmic consciousness or Brahman (like ‘presence’ for Silberstein), as the primordial groundless ground of all existence, remains beyond the subject-object distinction and is the source of all possibility while remaining itself both immanent in, but irreducible to, any comprehension itself, it certainly would seem to exhibit the qualities that Silberstein’s neutral monism prescribes. Silberstein’s work suggests that the problematic nature of the hard problem perhaps involves the realization, foundational to so many Eastern philosophies and religions, that the living experience of consciousness transcends any theory—physical or philosophical—about it. As the ground of possibility for all theories, cosmic consciousness is not reducible to any theory itself.
I find my self in strange agreement, but I would hasten to add how important it is to see that what is missing in this and the expository things you say, is method. But it remains in the abstract and doesn't put a finger on the real issue because it remains removed from this most difficult problem. Consider that language itself is a yoga. Western philosophy, I would argue, came to its final purpose with Husserl and post Husserlian thinking and this is NOT to say the he had it all right, but that without knowing it, he came upon the real yogic function of language, and a discussion along these lines is exactly where philosophy should be. Consider this from your post:

Advaita Vedanta’s concept of “nirguna Brahman” (Brahman as primordial consciousness encountered beyond all conceptual representations) provides the world’s oldest original, perennial and universal mode of encountering existence that simultaneously transcends and includes all world civilizations’ religious, philosophical, scientific and other conceptual frameworks.

If these concepts are going to be understood, they have to be taken to a deeper level of analysis, which is not going to be entirely welcome because it takes a radical move in the direction of renunciation. To analyze something requires it to be "visible" and I claim (though I consider the matter to be less a position to be argued than a position to be discovered and understood) that Husserl's epoche, the infamous phenomenological reduction, is THE method, for the West, to conceive of the renunciatory demands of the East. Terms like 'Brahman' are meaningless and Wittgenstein is right to toss such things in the bin of metaphysical nonsense if there is no phenomenological counterpart, that is, nothing in the presence of one's experiences that can be placed on the logical grid in the first place. The reason why analytic philosophers are so rudderless is because they refuse to make this dramatic move toward the revelatory, and this refusal has its basis in an infatuation with their own need to indulge need-to-think, and so they will forever be stuck on the rock of the ordinary in a world that massively interesting in the presuppositional analysis.

If there is such a thing as an overarching and dominating illusion that keeps a proper response to your question about the self at a distance, it is the illusion that what we say in the familiar and even (or especially!) technical ways can at all be ABOUT where analysis takes inquiry; so where does it take this? To an endless analytical cycle of question begging affirmations. Husserl's epoche takes inquiry "out" of this, and the reason I put this in quotation marks is because the world itself is "under erasure," meaning it includes something that cannot be spoken (obviously a term borrowed from Derrida), and this is where understanding Hinduism and Buddhism begins! The idea is that once one takes a step into this world of impossible intuitive openness, explicitly, at first, away from philosophical contexts that are initially a hindrance because they carry with them the assumption that the terms in play make sense, only then can philosophy rise to, if you will, a new expository paradigm, I mean, new things can be said and old word can be recontextualized (because we are, after all, stuck with them) because something new has been experienced, to put it plainly. A Buddhist or a Hindu does NOT, if meditation has been taken as a serious discipline of real affective and cognitive consequence, live in the same world as that in which the same terms carry the same meanings, and this is why philosophers like Heidegger are so important: they redirect thinking by resurrecting deactivated ideas in order to establish a a novel play of meanings that is not filled with the usual delimitations (keeping in mind that our words and their meanings are "open" to interpretative possibilities that are either open or closed, depending on pressures within a system of thought. Religion has always been notoriously closed. Philosophy is supposed to be open, that is open to the meanings that are made possible by....well, I am going too far here. But I'll keep it, just to say here that there is a LOT to say when one straddles the fence between language and its meanings and the presence of transcendental impositions. Only here do the things the ancient mystics of the East start to make sense, for these things are not grounded in the standard ways of thinking. They are grounded in a disclosure of, if you will, an examination of the interiority of the "self").

Follow Husserl's thinking, put aside that it makes claims that are arguable (as is evidenced in the post Husserlian developments), and keep in mind that Husserl is no mystic! He is a very disciplined philosopher who gives the world a method, albeit convoluted and opaque to commons sense ( I mean, it takes WORK to get to the simplicity of it) what could be construed as a kind of jnana yoga that takes our existence (the self you ask about in your OP) down to the wire where existence meets the language that conceives it. This is not just philosophizing; it is existential, and deals with the transformation of the self in a radically different, and "impossible" way).
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
#451588
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:35 pm
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:29 pm Pattern-chaser, would you believe that your dear self is some sort of illusion?
Perhaps I would if I were convinced, but I have discovered nothing, so far, that would persuade me that my self is, or is not, "some sort of illusion".
As a Buddhist, I am convinced that my dear self
is NOT any kind of illusion in any sense of this word. :D

The self is real as everything else in reality.
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
#451590


For those of you who have time and interest, I recommend the following easy philosophical Buddhist essay that you may read slowly, at your convenience, every other day, or however it works best for you:

www. quantumantigravity.files.wordpress. com/2022/10/vajra-cutter-sutra__a_short_commentary__2022-10-29_.docx



Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
#451603
Hereandnow wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:52 pm
I am going too far here. But I'll keep it, just to say here that there is a LOT to say when one straddles the fence between language and its meanings and the presence of transcendental impositions. Only here do the things the ancient mystics of the East start to make sense, for these things are not grounded in the standard ways of thinking. They are grounded in a disclosure of, if you will, an examination of the interiority of the "self".

Follow Husserl's thinking, put aside that it makes claims that are arguable (as is evidenced in the post Husserlian developments), and keep in mind that Husserl is no mystic! He is a very disciplined philosopher who gives the world a method (yoga), albeit convoluted and opaque to common sense. I mean, it takes WORK to get to the simplicity of it, what could be construed as a kind of Jnana Yoga that takes our existence (the self you ask about in your OP) down to the wire where existence meets the language that conceives it. This is not just philosophizing; it is existential, and deals with the transformation of the self in a radically different, and "impossible" way.
My dear spiritual brother Hereandnow, I selected the above fragment (emphasis added) of your long original post not because I disagreed with everything else. Quite the opposite!

I completely agree with everything you wrote in your above post. :D
I am very, very impressed with your amazing talent for words!

Famous Indian Buddhist tantric mystic, Arya Shantideva, wrote:
" I have no talent for words, and everything I write is already known.
I write to understand it better, for this will strengthen my aspiration to do virtue."
One could say that the Central Philosophy of Buddhism is, no offence, a conceptual (language) refinement of Advaita Vedanta.

This is not to say that the Buddha borrowed historically much earlier Advaita Vedanta, and adapted it to his new spiritual tradition. Both, Advaita Vedanta and the Buddha's Philosophy, independently stem from the same yogic mystical experiences of the most influential (by spiritual merit) ancient mystics of the East.

My dear spiritual brother Hereandnow, because it is not my intention to try and convert anyone anywhere to my lovely little Buddhist Cult, I would like you to take over, and lead us, please.

However, please take it into account that some people in this topic might not be familiar enough with what we are trying to conceptualize here in our ordinary language expressing our ordinary experience.

The floor is yours. Please. :D
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
#451604
Dr Jonathan Osterman PhD wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:57 pm
The self is real as everything else in reality.
The question is : What is "reality", and what is its ultimate nature ? :D
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
#451605
Hereandnow wrote: December 21st, 2023, 12:52 pm
I mean, it takes WORK to get to the simplicity of it.
My dear spiritual brother Hereandnow, in my experience, the simplicity of it,
paradoxically or not, is a serious problem for explaining it,
as well as for understanding of what is being explained.

I think that this serious problem of simplicity
is particularly well recognized in the Buddhist tradition of Chan (Zen).

Any comments from your experience of understanding,
and then, in turn, explaining ?
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland

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