Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Pattern-chaser]

P-C, I appreciate your sensitivity. I am not Jewish, but I had some family members gassed by the Nazis during WWII, so the re-emergence of anti-Semitism is disturbing to me on a visceral level.

It's difficult to reply to this. The current war/occupation has pushed some, on all sides, toward extremist feelings; very strong feelings, as we have seen. I suppose this could be seen as reflecting the global tendency toward extremism, perhaps due to the eco-consequences of the way we have treated our home? I'm not sure. But I am sure that religious discrimination against Jews (or any religion/belief-system) is wrong, and should be opposed in any way we can.

But I think the war/occupation, a political issue, is the underlying reason. It should be possible to combat the anti-religious feeling separately from the political disagreements, but we are humans, and the sad truth is that this is how humans act. It hasn't been helped by the unwise and damaging (IMO) conflation, by the state of Israel, between Jewish-ness and Israeli-ness. So people react by punishing Jews for the actions of Israel.

Pragmatically, if we wish to stop anti-Jewish feeling, we need to solve the political problem. ... And I have no clear idea how this might be achieved.

[Sy Borg]

As far as I'm concerned, everyone would be better off if both Palestine and Israel blew each other from the face of the Earth. Then again, knowing the Middle East, if Palestine and Israel were destroyed there would be wars between their neighbours for the vacated land. Or maybe China or Russia will claim it, given that they seem to claim just about everything else in Asia that is not backed by a major military.

Still, Hamas obviously wanted this fight and now they have it. What's to complain about? The only ones doing it tough are the human shields, but Palestinian people are accustomed to being abused by Hamas.

[Consul]

Speaking of geography, let's set the record straight:

[Sculptor1]

May 2022.
Israeli forces used “lethal force without justification” when they shot and killed Al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh in the occupied West Bank, violating her “right to life”, according to a new report by a UN-mandated investigative body.
This is just an example of the practice of the IDF, which has increased since the start of the current "war".

2023 represents the worst period for the killing of journalists in history, because of the policy of targeted murder by IDF forces in the last few weeks, which has seen the murder of 70 journalists. Their crimes is to hold an opinion that is critical of Israel.
My partner returned from a Vigil held today to honour one of these victims. He'd been awarded his PhD in our local University where she works.
Here's is how the IDF do their job. First they phone the target and warn them to stop posting on Twitter and Facebook. Next they phone in the death threat.
This victim having received the threat left the school where he was teaching to protect the children and on his return home the home of his sister, the house was immediately struck with a drone strike.
This scenario is the typical practice of IDF targeted death squads.

[Sculptor1]

Speaking of geography, let's set the record straight:

This Video is simply Israeli propaganda. You ought to be ashamed to be taken is so eaily.

[Sculptor1]

Dr. Refaat Alareer.
Murdered for telling the truth by IDF

[Sy Borg]

Dr. Refaat Alareer.
Murdered for telling the truth by IDF

Spin.

He died because he refused to leave and he was in the danger zone. If Hamas had not attacked Israel and deliberately provided war, he would be alive today.

[Sculptor1]

Dr. Refaat Alareer.
Murdered for telling the truth by IDF

Spin.

He died because he refused to leave and he was in the danger zone. If Hamas had not attacked Israel and deliberately provided war, he would be alive today.

If he was in the UK or US you would be complaining he was an immigrant.
Now you say he had no right to live in his own home.
He was marked for death for posting on Twitter.
That's okay with you?

[Sculptor1]

Dr. Refaat Alareer.
Murdered for telling the truth by IDF

Spin.

He died because he refused to leave and he was in the danger zone. If Hamas had not attacked Israel and deliberately provided war, he would be alive today.

A dead man deserves a spin.

After receiving death threats from IDF, Dr. Refaat Alareer wrote his last poem..

If I must Die,
you must live
to tell my story
to sell my things
to buy a piece of cloth
and some strings,
(make it white with a long tail)
so that a child somewhere in Gaza
whilst looking heaven in the eye
awaiting his dad when left in a blaze-
and bid no one farewell
not even to his flesh
not even himself-
sees the kite, my kite you made, flying up above
and thinks for a moment an angel is there
bringing back love
If I must die
let it bring hope
let it be a tale.

[Sy Borg]

Dr. Refaat Alareer.
Murdered for telling the truth by IDF

Spin.

He died because he refused to leave and he was in the danger zone. If Hamas had not attacked Israel and deliberately provided war, he would be alive today.

If he was in the UK or US you would be complaining he was an immigrant.
Now you say he had no right to live in his own home.
He was marked for death for posting on Twitter.
That's okay with you?

Absurd claims by you.

It had nothing to do with his posts or where he had the right to live. He was caught in a war zone. If Hamas didn't bomb Israel, it would not have been a war zone.

[Sy Borg]

Dr. Refaat Alareer.
Murdered for telling the truth by IDF

Spin.

He died because he refused to leave and he was in the danger zone. If Hamas had not attacked Israel and deliberately provided war, he would be alive today.

A dead man deserves a spin.

No one deserves spin - they deserve truth. The truth is that his death had nothing to do with anything he did or said, just that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He deserves neither lionising nor criticism. He knew he was risking himself by staying and he made that choice, and the result was terrible.

[Sculptor1]

Dr. Refaat Alareer.
Murdered for telling the truth by IDF

Spin.

He died because he refused to leave and he was in the danger zone. If Hamas had not attacked Israel and deliberately provided war, he would be alive today.

If he was in the UK or US you would be complaining he was an immigrant.
Now you say he had no right to live in his own home.
He was marked for death for posting on Twitter.
That's okay with you?

Absurd claims by you.

It had nothing to do with his posts or where he had the right to live. He was caught in a war zone. If Hamas didn't bomb Israel, it would not have been a war zone.

Did you not bother to read what I had posted?

He was warned personally by phone by the IDF that he was going to be killed.
He fled his classroom to protect his srudents.
Then was "surgically" murdered with a drone stirke.
All of this happened in a "safe zone" to which Palestinians were instructed to flee.
He joins 74 other journalists so targeted.

[Sculptor1]

Dr. Refaat Alareer.
Murdered for telling the truth by IDF

Spin.

He died because he refused to leave and he was in the danger zone. If Hamas had not attacked Israel and deliberately provided war, he would be alive today.

A dead man deserves a spin.

No one deserves spin - they deserve truth.

Then at least have the decency to read what I posted.
And read his poem.
How cold is your heart?

[Sy Borg]

If I missed something it because I found your post hard to tolerate reading. I dislike propaganda. It is this kind of deeply biased lionising of Palestinians and contempt for Israelis that brought me into this ugly political thread. I regret it.

One can't empathise with all the suffering of the world or one would go mad. It's not just humans suffering terribly each and every day all around the world, it's other sentient species too.

So, no, I won't emote on command for you. Nor will I do so for the media and its useful idiots. So you can skip the virtue signalling. I note that you didn't care a all about the Israeli civilians killed. How very warm-hearted of you. BTW, having seen you in action for some years now, you have no place accusing anyone of being cold after your regular acts of rhetorical violence.

In the meantime, if Hamas did not start the war, then the man would be alive. That is the situation.

There is this delusional notion that we live in the same world as the one in which the US hegemony made the rules. Those rules are not recognised any more. Borders are increasingly not being recognised. The world is re-forming.

Maybe we all need a big cry-in over all those poor dead Palestinians? Then we can cry about Ukrainians. And Guyanans. And Burmese. Ethiopians. And the Sudanese. Soon there will probably be dead Filipinos in the South China Sea. Have you shed tears for them all, or are only Palestinians worthy?

[Pattern-chaser]

A few observations that occur to me. I'm sure there are many other observations that could be added to this terrible story.


The Zionist organisations known as "Irgun" and "Haganah" carried out terrorist attacks in the period leading up to the Partition of Palestine. Indeed, it is arguable that the Partition was done to appease these Zionist terrorists. There is little difference between what the Zionists did then, and what Hamas have recently done. Attacks on innocent people for nationalist/political reasons. [If missiles had been available then, it is reasonable to assume that the Zionists would've used them too, as well as bombs.]

Hamas attacked Israelis, not Jews. This conflict is not a religious one, but a simple nationalist struggle.

Hamas did not "start" the current conflict. Their attack took place in the historical, political, and geographical context of the Middle East. It was a response. Without context, there is no sense to be found. [There is little enough sense in this conflict to begin with.]

Although many recent victims happen to be Jews, they were attacked because they are Israelis. So, just because some of the victims are Jews, this does not lead to the conclusion that their enemies must be Nazis. The Nazis targetted Jews because of their religion; modern Palestinians target those they see as invaders: Israelis.

The conflation — Jew = Israeli; Israeli = Jew — has two equally abhorrent consequences. First, Israel can use the Holocaust to deflect criticism of their actions. Second, religious bigots use this as an excuse to attack Jews across the world. I oppose both.

This conflict is down to Jews (who became Israelis after the formation of modern Israel) and Palestinians; their backers (USA, and maybe Iran); and the original global Imperial powers — USA (rising) and Britain (fading), who dragged the UN along with them — who brought about Partition.

Most borders in the area of the Middle East affected by this conflict were drawn by external European Imperial powers. It is perhaps these borders, drawn without the knowledge or co-operation of the people who lived there, that have given rise to the current conflict?

The leaders of the West all align with Israel and the USA. But there is a strong ground-swell of opinion among ordinary decent people that the Palestinian people also deserve sympathy and support. Far from all ordinary people support or sympathise with Palestine, but there is a clear disconnection between the electorates and their elected governments, at the moment.

N.B. Terrorist attacks by any faction, for any reason, are vile and unacceptable atrocities. I do not support or condone any of them. I think none of us do.