Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[JackDaydream]

Two words

Milton Friedman.

I haven't read Milton Friedman but I have heard of him as he was an economist, looking at capitalism. I am sure that economics and economic ethics is central to the underlying theme of the thread.

[JackDaydream]

It seems to me that we are living in more fraught times than, say, 50 or even 25 years ago. Things seem to be changing so fast geopolitically with undertones of war, and we have an existential climate crisis on out hands. Then there is the rise of AI which may present a different sort of existential crisis.

I have happy memories of the 1950s - we listened to Doris day and Bing Crosby singing on the wireless. And then the 1960s when TV became a thing in Australia. I remember the Beatles and miniskirts. I remember when university education in Australia was free and when ordinary people could aspire to own their own homes. I remember the fist PC's that ran on floppy discs. I remember when the internet first became a thing, and the first cell phones...

Things have always been changing. But the pace of change these days is dizzying. And as mentioned by JackDaydream, nothing lasts these days. No sooner do I replace my phone or computer than they are outdated - 3G, 4G, 5G... and you can no longer just buy Windows or Photoshop and own them, you have to have pay expensive annual subscriptions for everything, and constant updating of apps is necessary...

It's like our minds didn't evolve to cope with the rate of change we are experiencing with these days. And our pockets have gotten shallower. But what can you do. We can't say, stop the world, I want to get off! We just have to muddle through. I guess it's not so bad for us retired oldies but younger folks can't even afford to rent a house these days, much less save to buy one. And the billionaires keep getting richer while the vast masses of people get poorer. There have always been rich and poor but the depth of inequality these days is more profound than ever. As well as the climate crisis, the AI crisis, the geopolitical crisis, I feel the widening economic chasm between rich and poor is going to result in major societal upheaval. Governments are going to have to raise taxes on the multi-billionaires to spread things out more evenly or face increasing crime, and increasing and possibly violent, unrest.

Sorry I can't come up with much that is positive. But I'm open to suggestions.

I can see your point of view and it is hard to know how to see some of the changes. In particular, people who grew up in the 1950s may feel threatened. However, it is possible that some people are too uncritical of deeper aspects of some changes. It is not simply about software data and a need to update, even though it possible to become too dazzled by the glamour of lgadgets themselves and the marketing of the 'new'.

However, what I see as the more worrying aspect is ideas of digital tracking and, of course, this is partly in relation to artificial intelligence. It may come down to how all this is used, such as big data and some intrusive elements of digital technology, especially privacy. It may all come down to how changes are used and potential for abuse.

There is a danger of fear and moral panic about change and the rate of changes. Equally, if they are too swift and constant there may be too little opportunity for critical reflection. It may be about being swept along by changes of all kinds.

[Sculptor1]

Two words

Milton Friedman.

I haven't read Milton Friedman but I have heard of him as he was an economist, looking at capitalism. I am sure that economics and economic ethics is central to the underlying theme of the thread.

He threw out Keynesian economics and introduced Monetarism. His theories were first tried in CHile, under the dictator Pinochet. This led to massive riches for the few and increases in poverty. Boosted with those results his theories transmuted (basically in name only) to Reaganomics, then the Thatcherism.
This cultural virus has seen money ferretted away into off shores accounts, and laisez-fairre attitude to money creation by banks, increased house prices (and crashes) way above the reach of young people, the impoverishment of the general public, the crushing of unions, and depsite advances in technology, few benefits to the masses.
Zero hours contracts, reduction in rights and safe working practices. Unemployment and interest rates used as a tool for manipulation.

[JackDaydream]

Two words

Milton Friedman.

I haven't read Milton Friedman but I have heard of him as he was an economist, looking at capitalism. I am sure that economics and economic ethics is central to the underlying theme of the thread.

He threw out Keynesian economics and introduced Monetarism. His theories were first tried in CHile, under the dictator Pinochet. This led to massive riches for the few and increases in poverty. Boosted with those results his theories transmuted (basically in name only) to Reaganomics, then the Thatcherism.
This cultural virus has seen money ferretted away into off shores accounts, and laisez-fairre attitude to money creation by banks, increased house prices (and crashes) way above the reach of young people, the impoverishment of the general public, the crushing of unions, and depsite advances in technology, few benefits to the masses.
Zero hours contracts, reduction in rights and safe working practices. Unemployment and interest rates used as a tool for manipulation.

I didn't know that was what he did. If anything, monetarism sounds like what I fear is going to happen in England. I have felt so depressed ever since reading the planned Autumn statement with all kinds of plans being enforced, including forced mandatory placements for the sick and disabled. Of course, there have always been people who have dodged the system, but it seems like all the proposals are completely punitive. When all sick notes are dismissed it is going to have profound impact for many, especially those who have mental health problems.

I am hoping that I am wrong in seeing it in the most extreme light. I grew up with Thatcherism and it sounds far more extreme, especially as I think that for so many life has been far worse since the pandemic. So many changes seem to have been brought in through the backdoor. I know that you are in England, so what do you think? Do you think that I am catastrophising what is going on or being planned? Of course, it may simply be rhetoric that doesn't work, but there are likely to be many casualties, including suicides, before many challenge some of it.

[Lagayascienza]

Will things get better or worse or stay the same? We don't really know.

The bottom line is that you have no duty and no reason to be upset about a state of affairs beyond your control. Work within reality as you find it and you might find enough good things right here and now. Either way, it's all you get. Decide it is enough and maybe you can be happy.

There's some wisdom in that.

As we get older it's tempting to look back and see the past through rose coloured glasses. Perhaps the increase in the the rate of change I spoke of is more apparent than real. And the 1950s - 1980s were by no means trouble fee when I look back. The iron curtain was firmly drawn, there were the Korean and Vietnam wars, the oil crisis, AIDS. plenty of economic and natural disasters...

And yet it does seem like a more precarious time for humanity. For example, in 1950 when I was a kid there were 2.5 billion people to feed. Then the green revolution got underway and enabled us to feed more 8.1 billion people today. But this ability is highly dependent on fossil fuels, synthetic fertilizers and pesticides... If this system breaks down for whatever reason it would mean death from starvation and misery on a scale never seen in humanities history.

But it is what it is. We'll just have to hope we can keep the ball rolling.

[Sculptor1]

Two words

Milton Friedman.

I haven't read Milton Friedman but I have heard of him as he was an economist, looking at capitalism. I am sure that economics and economic ethics is central to the underlying theme of the thread.

He threw out Keynesian economics and introduced Monetarism. His theories were first tried in CHile, under the dictator Pinochet. This led to massive riches for the few and increases in poverty. Boosted with those results his theories transmuted (basically in name only) to Reaganomics, then the Thatcherism.
This cultural virus has seen money ferretted away into off shores accounts, and laisez-fairre attitude to money creation by banks, increased house prices (and crashes) way above the reach of young people, the impoverishment of the general public, the crushing of unions, and depsite advances in technology, few benefits to the masses.
Zero hours contracts, reduction in rights and safe working practices. Unemployment and interest rates used as a tool for manipulation.

I didn't know that was what he did. If anything, monetarism sounds like what I fear is going to happen in England.

It's been here since Thatcher

I have felt so depressed ever since reading the planned Autumn statement with all kinds of plans being enforced, including forced mandatory placements for the sick and disabled. Of course, there have always been people who have dodged the system, but it seems like all the proposals are completely punitive. When all sick notes are dismissed it is going to have profound impact for many, especially those who have mental health problems.

The Tories have already squeezed the poor, the sick and the unemployed until they bleed. Their latest suggestions are like pouring saly into an already open wound, it's been estimated that the Reforms of Ian Duncan Smith at the start of auterity caused 120,000 excess deaths. And if you have been following the COVID enquiry it's pretty clear that Boris and the now PM Sunak were very much of the "let them die" attitude.

I am hoping that I am wrong in seeing it in the most extreme light. I grew up with Thatcherism and it sounds far more extreme, especially as I think that for so many life has been far worse since the pandemic. So many changes seem to have been brought in through the backdoor. I know that you are in England, so what do you think? Do you think that I am catastrophising what is going on or being planned? Of course, it may simply be rhetoric that doesn't work, but there are likely to be many casualties, including suicides, before many challenge some of it.

I think it is high time that the Conservative as a poltical force is ended. The trouble is that they represent the rich and it is the rich that own all the media. Labour is close in the heels of their attitude, and the last attempt for Labour to offer a real alternative in Corbyn was met with a syustained campaign of smear, lies,and dissimulation.
I have no dubt that Labour will win the next GE, but I doubt that much shall change.

[JackDaydream]

I haven't read Milton Friedman but I have heard of him as he was an economist, looking at capitalism. I am sure that economics and economic ethics is central to the underlying theme of the thread.

He threw out Keynesian economics and introduced Monetarism. His theories were first tried in CHile, under the dictator Pinochet. This led to massive riches for the few and increases in poverty. Boosted with those results his theories transmuted (basically in name only) to Reaganomics, then the Thatcherism.
This cultural virus has seen money ferretted away into off shores accounts, and laisez-fairre attitude to money creation by banks, increased house prices (and crashes) way above the reach of young people, the impoverishment of the general public, the crushing of unions, and depsite advances in technology, few benefits to the masses.
Zero hours contracts, reduction in rights and safe working practices. Unemployment and interest rates used as a tool for manipulation.

I didn't know that was what he did. If anything, monetarism sounds like what I fear is going to happen in England.

It's been here since Thatcher

I have felt so depressed ever since reading the planned Autumn statement with all kinds of plans being enforced, including forced mandatory placements for the sick and disabled. Of course, there have always been people who have dodged the system, but it seems like all the proposals are completely punitive. When all sick notes are dismissed it is going to have profound impact for many, especially those who have mental health problems.

The Tories have already squeezed the poor, the sick and the unemployed until they bleed. Their latest suggestions are like pouring saly into an already open wound, it's been estimated that the Reforms of Ian Duncan Smith at the start of auterity caused 120,000 excess deaths. And if you have been following the COVID enquiry it's pretty clear that Boris and the now PM Sunak were very much of the "let them die" attitude.

I am hoping that I am wrong in seeing it in the most extreme light. I grew up with Thatcherism and it sounds far more extreme, especially as I think that for so many life has been far worse since the pandemic. So many changes seem to have been brought in through the backdoor. I know that you are in England, so what do you think? Do you think that I am catastrophising what is going on or being planned? Of course, it may simply be rhetoric that doesn't work, but there are likely to be many casualties, including suicides, before many challenge some of it.

I think it is high time that the Conservative as a poltical force is ended. The trouble is that they represent the rich and it is the rich that own all the media. Labour is close in the heels of their attitude, and the last attempt for Labour to offer a real alternative in Corbyn was met with a syustained campaign of smear, lies,and dissimulation.
I have no dubt that Labour will win the next GE, but I doubt that much shall change.

The battle between conservatism and labour endures and I hope that you are right in thinking of the next election. However, I see the approach to politics, the left and the right, as extremely complex, with so much political power addressed towards the rich and powerful. Even on this site, I wonder how this comes into play.

I realise that this is a site on an international scale, and despite the discrepancies and concerns of individual nations it may come down to basics of understanding of human needs. So much is camouflaged by lies and distortions. This is where in the genuine pursuit of philosophy and ethics it may come down to basic values, and going beyond left and right, especially extremism, in thinking of the basics of human needs, and whether it is possible for the emphasis to go beyond the protection.of the rich and powerful. It may be about hierarchies of power and whether these are questioned at many levels.

[LuckyR]

I have moved near to a Jewish area in London and some of the people I have got to know are Jewish and it does seem that there is a rise of Antisemitism.

I'm afraid this is specific to the war in the Middle East. And it's exacerbated by Israel's long-standing conflation of "Jewish" and "Israeli", as though the two are synonyms. It has enabled them to take advantage of the Holocaust () to excuse their actions (invasion; occupation; etc), or at least to deflect criticism thereof. The downside is that current antipathy toward the political state of Israel has resulted on attacks on Jewish people.

But note that Palestinians also trace their descent from the ancient Semite tribe, so "anti-Semitism" is deeply confusing in this context, as it could refer to anti-Israeli (nationality) or anti-Jewish (religious) feelings, or even to anti-Palestinian feelings!.

All true, yet rarely acknowledged.

[Lagayascienza]

Yes, I agree. It shouldn't be about Judaism and Islam. Religion is just one more issue that muddies the water. It's fundamentally about lebensraum or living space. The ceaseless expansion of Israelis into Palestinian territory cannot do other than provoke resentment, opposition, struggle and violence. The Palestinians will never give up. And I don't blame them. If Israel wants peace it must either exterminate the Palestinians or give them hope of a sustainable homeland and state.

[popeye1945]

Colonialism has always been the source of war, injustice, and the poverty of others. In the recent past it was British and European colonizing countries, today it is the American and European countries, things have not changed much, but the deadliness of the weapons of subjugation and slavery. A greater propaganda machine has been necessary to convince their populations of their righteousness and has been most triumphant. It looks however, a new dawn has arrived in the organization of the exploited and enslaved in the formation of the BRICS federation made up of the most colonized and exploited nations of the world, their numbers ever growing in unity. This is not the same old colonial mindset the West still functions on, but a vision of a world of cooperation, weary oh so weary of being kept down, it has been the West's inhumanity towards it's fellows that really created this unity called the BRICS. It is a tense time indeed, America's desire for world domination is slowly being eroded on all levels feasible, meaning economically and militarily. The Eastern hemisphere knew America would be coming for them, and prepared, and prepared they are, all we can do most of us is watch the unfolding or the destruction of our world---- America the beautiful---lol!

[Mounce574]

popeye1945 I would assume you are not an American?

To answer the question in the post: Why is there so much war, injustice, and poverty in the world in the twenty-first century? People are self-serving beings who do what they believe is right even if another person thinks they are wrong. Differences in opinion, race, gender identity, religion, and political goals are just the broad issues that cause war, injustice, and poverty.
Americans, as whole, don't aim for world domination. America attempted to be neutral until Pearl Harbor. To say the Eastern hemisphere knew America was coming for them doesn't make sense. That's saying America is the only country in the Western hemisphere. There's a whole continent in western hemisphere that isn't part of the United States. The people who embrace the vision of the idea of world cooperation- that's idealism. Too many countries have different ideas about the what is perfect/right. North Korea- you have to be atheist and allow invasion of privacy go out the window. There are African tribes that mutilate and kill each other. Israel is retaliating against Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran firing missiles at them. Russia doesn't want Ukraine to be part of NATO. Russia is the only country that ha the nuclear weapon capabilities to be a threat to the United States. China has lots of people, but do all of them really want to fight for their leader? I doubt they do, but to avoid torture and death, they walk like puppets. During the pandemic, the people who were forced to die inside buildings because the government boarded them inside and prevented them from basic human necessities..were they prepared for that?
I am a Native American and a veteran- America is beautiful and I would never want to live anywhere else in the world.

[Good_Egg]

my perception is that so much is going wrong in the world...

I feel that for significant amounts of people, including myself, the life conditions have become intolerable. Quality of life is challenged by continual problems of housing, unemployment and increasing poverty...

I am not speaking about England alone and see injustice, war, and inequalities throughout the world. Sometimes, I start to feel that it is the end of civilisation as we know it.

Let's break that down a bit. Seems to me that there are three or four things coming together that make up the Bad News that is getting you down.

1) increasing poverty in our own countries, in the West, involving high costs of housing, high unemployment, high prices, and low wages.

2) wars abroad, particularly in Ukraone and on the borders of Israel, but also in a load of other places that our media don't focus on.

3) growing injustice, meaning that the media reports we read about things happening in other countries accord less and less with our sense of how things ought to be.

Poverty, War Injustice.

Does being philosophical about it help to keep the despair at bay ? Yes, I think so. Understanding cause and effect helps us to make sense of things.

On poverty:

What we used to call the Third World is much less poor than it was 50 years ago. Global poverty is on the decline.

Poverty in the West may be worse. Part of that is due to the relative decline of the West. We used to make our living manufacturing stuff for the rest of the world that they can now do for themselves. In a globalised world, what role is there for the industrial working class of the West ?

Add to that rising population due to immigration. The narrative about immigrants taking the lower-paid jobs is true, but less important than the increasing demand (e.g. for housing & for medical services) and the undermining of neighbourliness based on shared culture.

On war:

There have always been wars and probably always will be. The notion that war will fade away as the world becomes more prosperous was always wishful thinking based on a superficial materialism.

Ukraine is worrying, but if it doesn't go nuclear then it will pass - some sort of peace deal is in the interests of both sides.

Gaza / Lebanon is the source of scenes which are distressing if you perceive the sufferers as innocent. That's about asymmetric warfare a.k.a. terrorism. Building a world in which terrorism doesn't pay is difficult.

On injustice abroad, part of the decline of the West involves other countries not playing by Western ideas of what is just.

Injustice at home may be to do with internet echo-chambers and the decline of a shared culture that transcends differences of opinion.

Despair not; these things are not inexplicable.
You've heard of the serenity prayer. The path of wisdom is accepting that there will always be things like war & inequality which we'd prefer didn't exist.

And also issues that we can tackle. e.g. by zero-population growth policy, by a judicious combination of pro-business policy with a social "safety net" in our own countries, by developing our philosophy to make a convincing case for our values.