Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[JackDaydream]

I am not trying to write a negative thread, but my perception is that so much is going wrong in the world, after so many centuries, with so little being learned from mistakes. Of course, I am aware that my own and other people's outlook is filtered through the news, controlled by the media and political powers behind the scenes. It is also dependent on where one lives in the world and personal circumstances.

I am based in England and feel that life is almost going back to conditions of the Victorian times. I feel that for significant amounts of people, including myself, the life conditions have become intolerable. Quality of life is challenged by continual problems of housing, unemployment and increasing poverty. Some of the problems seem to have arisen as a result of the pandemic, Brexit and the rise of A1.

However, I am not speaking about England alone and see injustice, war, and inequalities throughout the world. Sometimes, I start to feel that it is the end of civilisation as we know it. Part of the problem may be such technological sophistication and the "dar'k side of human nature coming together catastrophically. After so much history and knowledge what has gone wrong? Can philosophy help in the dire times? I am also open to more positive interpretations and ways of trying to see beyond the bleakness rather than collapse into pessimism and nihilism. Any thoughts?

[Pattern-chaser]

I think the impact of what we have done to our planet, the extreme weather, mass extinctions, lack of fresh water, crop failures, and so forth, have lead to global unrest. The effects are often far from direct, but I suspect this is one underlying cause of the unrest you describe. Perhaps the only cause?

Can philosophy help? I'm not sure it needs to. We already know the cause of our demise, but we are unwilling to the point of inability when it comes to stopping what we're doing, because we enjoy the luxuries of modern life too much.

[JackDaydream]

I think the impact of what we have done to our planet, the extreme weather, mass extinctions, lack of fresh water, crop failures, and so forth, have lead to global unrest. The effects are often far from direct, but I suspect this is one underlying cause of the unrest you describe. Perhaps the only cause?

Can philosophy help? I'm not sure it needs to. We already know the cause of our demise, but we are unwilling to the point of inability when it comes to stopping what we're doing, because we enjoy the luxuries of modern life too much.

Thank you for your reply because one problem which I see with my question is the suggestion of a global generalisation because there are so many intricate complications. However, I was trying to step back and think systemically about connections. I wonder how much comes down to guilt about harm done to the planet and to other people and lifeforms. Some of this may be projected onto others to blame as a subtle form of individual denial of responsibility.

I also was thinking of so much doom and gloom and its potential as form of self-fulfilling prophecy. One of my first threads on the forum a couple of years ago was the about Baudrillard' s idea of the end of history. This is a different, sociological and postmodern critique but so much may have arisen in connection with the end of the millennium. This had Christian undertones and was also in conjunction with the full impact of the ecological threat becoming so apparent.

So, this thread really came about while I was lying awake after reading news on my phone, including the Israel- Palestinian situation, as well as the autumn budget statement plans in England. It brought up my enduring worry about where ia humanity going? It is multifaceted and care needs to be made in not going too far in conspiracy thinking. Yet, power structures are involved and so much conflict with blame and different interests. I have moved near to a Jewish area in London and some of the people I have got to know are Jewish and it does seem that there is a rise of Antisemitism.

I also wonder about Neo Nazism and forms of right wing extremism. There are so many tensions about the nature of diversity. In England there is also the big conflict about the immigration plan for Rwanda. Of course, I am speaking from a perspective of living in London, a multicultural overpopulated mass of anonymity. So many people on this site are in America and Australia, as well as other places. It is possible to rant from one's personal position and perspective. I am aware of the limits of my question but am seeking to try to draw links between politics and ethics. Also, I am not seeking to be entirely negative, or deconstructive, about conflict, but questioning what lies behind the surface of the narrative events geographically and historically.

[Pattern-chaser]

I have moved near to a Jewish area in London and some of the people I have got to know are Jewish and it does seem that there is a rise of Antisemitism.

I'm afraid this is specific to the war in the Middle East. And it's exacerbated by Israel's long-standing conflation of "Jewish" and "Israeli", as though the two are synonyms. It has enabled them to take advantage of the Holocaust () to excuse their actions (invasion; occupation; etc), or at least to deflect criticism thereof. The downside is that current antipathy toward the political state of Israel has resulted on attacks on Jewish people.

But note that Palestinians also trace their descent from the ancient Semite tribe, so "anti-Semitism" is deeply confusing in this context, as it could refer to anti-Israeli (nationality) or anti-Jewish (religious) feelings, or even to anti-Palestinian feelings!.

[JackDaydream]

I have moved near to a Jewish area in London and some of the people I have got to know are Jewish and it does seem that there is a rise of Antisemitism.

I'm afraid this is specific to the war in the Middle East. And it's exacerbated by Israel's long-standing conflation of "Jewish" and "Israeli", as though the two are synonyms. It has enabled them to take advantage of the Holocaust () to excuse their actions (invasion; occupation; etc), or at least to deflect criticism thereof. The downside is that current antipathy toward the political state of Israel has resulted on attacks on Jewish people.

But note that Palestinians also trace their descent from the ancient Semite tribe, so "anti-Semitism" is deeply confusing in this context, as it could refer to anti-Israeli (nationality) or anti-Jewish (religious) feelings, or even to anti-Palestinian feelings!.

The nature of Antisemitism is extremely complicated and I am aware that there is a thread on the topic currently. The angle which I probably come from is more about the nature of psychology, ethics and politics. One book which I see as important is Jon Ronson's 'Them', (2015). It looks at ideas of extremist politics, including the ideas of David Icke, and the concept of the 'New World Order', which may have been important in political thinking. However, it also looks at the notion of 'Us' and 'Them', which may be at the centre of so many political constructions of ideas and ideologies.

The one regarding Jewish ideas is especially complex, because it involves religious ones,, with Antisemitism incorporating moral judgments about the killing of Jesus on some level.

The formation of political views and ideologies, especially in fundamentalist perspectives may incorporate moral judgments in a critical way, ranging from those of terrorism and political extremism, whether against one cultural belief or minority group, such as gay people. The Nazi movement was critical in this way, incorporating gay people.

The nature of marginalised groups is critical here and, in particular, the overlap between political currents on a global level may be about the marginalised.

[Pattern-chaser]

I have moved near to a Jewish area in London and some of the people I have got to know are Jewish and it does seem that there is a rise of Antisemitism.

I'm afraid this is specific to the war in the Middle East. And it's exacerbated by Israel's long-standing conflation of "Jewish" and "Israeli", as though the two are synonyms. It has enabled them to take advantage of the Holocaust () to excuse their actions (invasion; occupation; etc), or at least to deflect criticism thereof. The downside is that current antipathy toward the political state of Israel has resulted on attacks on Jewish people.

But note that Palestinians also trace their descent from the ancient Semite tribe, so "anti-Semitism" is deeply confusing in this context, as it could refer to anti-Israeli (nationality) or anti-Jewish (religious) feelings, or even to anti-Palestinian feelings!.

The nature of Antisemitism is extremely complicated and I am aware that there is a thread on the topic currently. The angle which I probably come from is more about the nature of psychology, ethics and politics. One book which I see as important is Jon Ronson's 'Them', (2015). It looks at ideas of extremist politics, including the ideas of David Icke, and the concept of the 'New World Order', which may have been important in political thinking. However, it also looks at the notion of 'Us' and 'Them', which may be at the centre of so many political constructions of ideas and ideologies.

The one regarding Jewish ideas is especially complex, because it involves religious ones,, with Antisemitism incorporating moral judgments about the killing of Jesus on some level.

The formation of political views and ideologies, especially in fundamentalist perspectives may incorporate moral judgments in a critical way, ranging from those of terrorism and political extremism, whether against one cultural belief or minority group, such as gay people. The Nazi movement was critical in this way, incorporating gay people.

The nature of marginalised groups is critical here and, in particular, the overlap between political currents on a global level may be about the marginalised.

Sorry, I wasn't being as 'deep and meaningful' as that. I was simply observing that the deliberately-induced confusion between "Jewish" and "Israeli" means that someone who opposes the actions of the Israeli state might seek to blame someone who is of the Jewish faith, believing that the two are one and the same. This is more than unfortunate...

[JackDaydream]

I have moved near to a Jewish area in London and some of the people I have got to know are Jewish and it does seem that there is a rise of Antisemitism.

I'm afraid this is specific to the war in the Middle East. And it's exacerbated by Israel's long-standing conflation of "Jewish" and "Israeli", as though the two are synonyms. It has enabled them to take advantage of the Holocaust () to excuse their actions (invasion; occupation; etc), or at least to deflect criticism thereof. The downside is that current antipathy toward the political state of Israel has resulted on attacks on Jewish people.

But note that Palestinians also trace their descent from the ancient Semite tribe, so "anti-Semitism" is deeply confusing in this context, as it could refer to anti-Israeli (nationality) or anti-Jewish (religious) feelings, or even to anti-Palestinian feelings!.

The nature of Antisemitism is extremely complicated and I am aware that there is a thread on the topic currently. The angle which I probably come from is more about the nature of psychology, ethics and politics. One book which I see as important is Jon Ronson's 'Them', (2015). It looks at ideas of extremist politics, including the ideas of David Icke, and the concept of the 'New World Order', which may have been important in political thinking. However, it also looks at the notion of 'Us' and 'Them', which may be at the centre of so many political constructions of ideas and ideologies.

The one regarding Jewish ideas is especially complex, because it involves religious ones,, with Antisemitism incorporating moral judgments about the killing of Jesus on some level.

The formation of political views and ideologies, especially in fundamentalist perspectives may incorporate moral judgments in a critical way, ranging from those of terrorism and political extremism, whether against one cultural belief or minority group, such as gay people. The Nazi movement was critical in this way, incorporating gay people.

The nature of marginalised groups is critical here and, in particular, the overlap between political currents on a global level may be about the marginalised.

There does appear to make generalised assumptions based on comparisons. It often involves a wish to label certain groups or individuals as 'evil' and ad 'enemies'. It seems connected to group processes and as a way of scapegoating..

In England, at the present time it does seem to be about a form of hard right wing extremism, possibly as much, if not greater than Thatcherism.The reason why it may be far harder is because it does seem to incorporate punitive aspects..One of the most dramatic elements is possible plans to deport people to Rwanda, even though many Tories are seeing this as a violation of human rights.

[gad-fly]

I am not trying to write a negative thread, but my perception is that so much is going wrong in the world, after so many centuries, with so little being learned from mistakes. Of course, I am aware that my own and other people's outlook is filtered through the news, controlled by the media and political powers behind the scenes. It is also dependent on where one lives in the world and personal circumstances.

I am based in England and feel that life is almost going back to conditions of the Victorian times. I feel that for significant amounts of people, including myself, the life conditions have become intolerable. Quality of life is challenged by continual problems of housing, unemployment and increasing poverty. Some of the problems seem to have arisen as a result of the pandemic, Brexit and the rise of A1.

However, I am not speaking about England alone and see injustice, war, and inequalities throughout the world. Sometimes, I start to feel that it is the end of civilisation as we know it. Part of the problem may be such technological sophistication and the "dar'k side of human nature coming together catastrophically. After so much history and knowledge what has gone wrong? Can philosophy help in the dire times? I am also open to more positive interpretations and ways of trying to see beyond the bleakness rather than collapse into pessimism and nihilism. Any thoughts?

Why indeed? This century has only 23 years gone. it is too early to ask the historical question.

Put the quetion in context. Are you asking why as were in the 20th, the 19th, and so on, or are you asking as an isolated or separate case?

The 20th had two world wars? What we have got in less than a quarter century now? Local or at most religional conflicts. Not even a single case of carpet bombing.

i suggest that historically, we are at the best time so far. We should count our blessing.

[JackDaydream]

I am not trying to write a negative thread, but my perception is that so much is going wrong in the world, after so many centuries, with so little being learned from mistakes. Of course, I am aware that my own and other people's outlook is filtered through the news, controlled by the media and political powers behind the scenes. It is also dependent on where one lives in the world and personal circumstances.

I am based in England and feel that life is almost going back to conditions of the Victorian times. I feel that for significant amounts of people, including myself, the life conditions have become intolerable. Quality of life is challenged by continual problems of housing, unemployment and increasing poverty. Some of the problems seem to have arisen as a result of the pandemic, Brexit and the rise of A1.

However, I am not speaking about England alone and see injustice, war, and inequalities throughout the world. Sometimes, I start to feel that it is the end of civilisation as we know it. Part of the problem may be such technological sophistication and the "dar'k side of human nature coming together catastrophically. After so much history and knowledge what has gone wrong? Can philosophy help in the dire times? I am also open to more positive interpretations and ways of trying to see beyond the bleakness rather than collapse into pessimism and nihilism. Any thoughts?

Why indeed? This century has only 23 years gone. it is too early to ask the historical question.

Put the quetion in context. Are you asking why as were in the 20th, the 19th, and so on, or are you asking as an isolated or separate case?

The 20th had two world wars? What we have got in less than a quarter century now? Local or at most religional conflicts. Not even a single case of carpet bombing.

i suggest that historically, we are at the best time so far. We should count our blessing.

Of course, it is not possible to frame the Twentieth First Century historically and it is more about wondering where it could go as we are reaching the first quarter in the next couple of years. So far, it doesn't look good, especially with the escalating impact of climate change and current war situations.

In some ways, it is the best of times for many, with access to healthcare, technological developments and length of life. It is worth being grateful for what one has rather than seeing doom and gloom. It would be good to see some changes as being connected to a break down of previous values, especially the emphasis on material growth which were essential to the capitalist framework, which has led to ecological misuse. But, it is not clear because there is such an emphasis on products of poor quality, which means that people are having to keep replacing items which results in so much waste of resources and does not challenge consumption at all.

I remember when I wrote a thread on totalitarian, you challenged me on the basis that it may be a shift to authoritarianism as opposed to totalitarianism. This was a fair point. It probably comes down to social ethics, values and systems of power. The rich power elite control resources behind the scenes of the competition for resources. It is questionable whether this is shifting.

With increasing poverty within developed nations it could be that the gulf between third and first world nations is breaking down. On the other hand, it could be just the gaps between the rich and poor becoming even greater as resources, especially petroleum, are diminishing.

[Sculptor1]

Two words

Milton Friedman.

[Lagayascienza]

It seems to me that we are living in more fraught times than, say, 50 or even 25 years ago. Things seem to be changing so fast geopolitically with undertones of war, and we have an existential climate crisis on out hands. Then there is the rise of AI which may present a different sort of existential crisis.

I have happy memories of the 1950s - we listened to Doris day and Bing Crosby singing on the wireless. And then the 1960s when TV became a thing in Australia. I remember the Beatles and miniskirts. I remember when university education in Australia was free and when ordinary people could aspire to own their own homes. I remember the fist PC's that ran on floppy discs. I remember when the internet first became a thing, and the first cell phones...

Things have always been changing. But the pace of change these days is dizzying. And as mentioned by JackDaydream, nothing lasts these days. No sooner do I replace my phone or computer than they are outdated - 3G, 4G, 5G... and you can no longer just buy Windows or Photoshop and own them, you have to have pay expensive annual subscriptions for everything, and constant updating of apps is necessary...

It's like our minds didn't evolve to cope with the rate of change we are experiencing with these days. And our pockets have gotten shallower. But what can you do. We can't say, stop the world, I want to get off! We just have to muddle through. I guess it's not so bad for us retired oldies but younger folks can't even afford to rent a house these days, much less save to buy one. And the billionaires keep getting richer while the vast masses of people get poorer. There have always been rich and poor but the depth of inequality these days is more profound than ever. As well as the climate crisis, the AI crisis, the geopolitical crisis, I feel the widening economic chasm between rich and poor is going to result in major societal upheaval. Governments are going to have to raise taxes on the multi-billionaires to spread things out more evenly or face increasing crime, and increasing and possibly violent, unrest.

Sorry I can't come up with much that is positive. But I'm open to suggestions.

[gad-fly]

I am based in England and feel that life is almost going back to conditions of the Victorian times. I feel that for significant amounts of people, including myself, the life conditions have become intolerable. Quality of life is challenged by continual problems of housing, unemployment and increasing poverty. Some of the problems seem to have arisen as a result of the pandemic, Brexit and the rise of A1.

Of course, it is not possible to frame the Twentieth First Century historically and it is more about wondering where it could go as we are reaching the first quarter in the next couple of years. So far, it doesn't look good, especially with the escalating impact of climate change and current war situations.

In some ways, it is the best of times for many, with access to healthcare, technological developments and length of life. It is worth being grateful for what one has rather than seeing doom and gloom.
I remember when I wrote a thread on totalitarian, you challenged me on the basis that it may be a shift to authoritarianism as opposed to totalitarianism. This was a fair point. It probably comes down to social ethics, values and systems of power. The rich power elite control resources behind the scenes of the competition for resources. It is your perspective. whether this is shifting.

With increasing poverty within developed nations it could be that the gulf between third and first world nations is breaking down. On the other hand, it could be just the gaps between the rich and poor becoming even greater as resources, especially petroleum, are diminishing.
[/quote]

Your title mentions so much war, injustice, and poverty. Put it this way. It depends on your perspective and circumstance. So much war? Right, if you live in Gaza. So much injustice? Right, if you are under a dictatorship. Poverty? Right, if you are in some third world desert, But you are not.

Take a broader perspective. Most if not all of us are much better off than our granparent's generation. The world is moving forward, in the right direction in general. Too slow? May be. We can do better? Agreed. but we deserve to be contented.

[gad-fly]

It seems to me that we are living in more fraught times than, say, 50 or even 25 years ago. Things seem to be changing so fast geopolitically with undertones of war, and we have an existential climate crisis on out hands. Then there is the rise of AI which may present a different sort of existential crisis.

I have happy memories of the 1950s - we listened to Doris day and Bing Crosby singing on the wireless. And then the 1960s when TV became a thing in Australia. I remember the Beatles and miniskirts. I remember when university education in Australia was free and when ordinary people could aspire to own their own homes. I remember the fist PC's that ran on floppy discs. I remember when the internet first became a thing, and the first cell phones...

Things have always been changing. But the pace of change these days is dizzying. And as mentioned by JackDaydream, nothing lasts these days. No sooner do I replace my phone or computer than they are outdated - 3G, 4G, 5G... and you can no longer just buy Windows or Photoshop and own them, you have to have pay expensive annual subscriptions for everything, and constant updating of apps is necessary...

It's like our minds didn't evolve to cope with the rate of change we are experiencing with these days. And our pockets have gotten shallower. But what can you do. We can't say, stop the world, I want to get off! We just have to muddle through. I guess it's not so bad for us retired oldies but younger folks can't even afford to rent a house these days, much less save to buy one. And the billionaires keep getting richer while the vast masses of people get poorer. There have always been rich and poor but the depth of inequality these days is more profound than ever. As well as the climate crisis, the AI crisis, the geopolitical crisis, I feel the widening economic chasm between rich and poor is going to result in major societal upheaval. Governments are going to have to raise taxes on the multi-billionaires to spread things out more evenly or face increasing crime, and increasing and possibly violent, unrest.

Sorry I can't come up with much that is positive. But I'm open to suggestions.

My suggeestion. To whine is human, and often soothing too. Make the world go away. Stop. Let me get off, to hold the eternal bliss arrested and lasting forever. Hark to the good old days. Those were the days, my friend. We thoguht they never end. Fine if you want to keep on dreaming. But it has nothing to do with war, poverty, and so on, which are existential.

[chewybrian]

Things have always been changing. But the pace of change these days is dizzying. And as mentioned by JackDaydream, nothing lasts these days. No sooner do I replace my phone or computer than they are outdated - 3G, 4G, 5G... and you can no longer just buy Windows or Photoshop and own them, you have to have pay expensive annual subscriptions for everything, and constant updating of apps is necessary...
...
Sorry I can't come up with much that is positive. But I'm open to suggestions.

It's way too easy to remember the time of your childhood as trouble-free, mostly because you didn't have a good understanding of the problems of the world.

I'll stay a bit positive on two counts. First, you do NOT need to have all these apps and new things. I've only ever had two apps on my phone. I can do everything else on chrome just like I'm at home with no problem. I've have 4 phones since the mid 90's, only upgrading when I was forced to do so, and the most I've spent was $100. I live very simply. I haven't had a car for many years, for example. It's too easy to miss things we never had but feel we "deserve", but it takes a little effort to be grateful for what we've got, or to be honest about what we really need and don't need (though it's worth the effort).

Second, predicting the future is a fools' errand. There's a fair chance that the younger generations will rewrite the rules of the game to some extent. The MAGA crowd is in death throes right now, trying to maintain past injustices built into a system they thought benefitted them. Coincidentally, a lot of them seem to misremember the days of their youth, as if we lived up to the lip service we gave to freedom and justice back then. Will things get better or worse or stay the same? We don't really know.

The bottom line is that you have no duty and no reason to be upset about a state of affairs beyond your control. Work within reality as you find it and you might find enough good things right here and now. Either way, it's all you get. Decide it is enough and maybe you can be happy.

[JackDaydream]

I am not trying to write a negative thread, but my perception is that so much is going wrong in the world, after so many centuries, with so little being learned from mistakes. Of course, I am aware that my own and other people's outlook is filtered through the news, controlled by the media and political powers behind the scenes. It is also dependent on where one lives in the world and personal circumstances.

I am based in England and feel that life is almost going back to conditions of the Victorian times. I feel that for significant amounts of people, including myself, the life conditions have become intolerable. Quality of life is challenged by continual problems of housing, unemployment and increasing poverty. Some of the problems seem to have arisen as a result of the pandemic, Brexit and the rise of A1.

However, I am not speaking about England alone and see injustice, war, and inequalities throughout the world. Sometimes, I start to feel that it is the end of civilisation as we know it. Part of the problem may be such technological sophistication and the "dar'k side of human nature coming together catastrophically. After so much history and knowledge what has gone wrong? Can philosophy help in the dire times? I am also open to more positive interpretations and ways of trying to see beyond the bleakness rather than collapse into pessimism and nihilism. Any thoughts?

Why indeed? This century has only 23 years gone. it is too early to ask the historical question.

Put the quetion in context. Are you asking why as were in the 20th, the 19th, and so on, or are you asking as an isolated or separate case?

The 20th had two world wars? What we have got in less than a quarter century now? Local or at most religional conflicts. Not even a single case of carpet bombing.

i suggest that historically, we are at the best time so far. We should count our blessing.

In some ways, many people experience a quality of life far greater than ever, and, in that respect it could be seen as the best of times. But, to see it like that simply may be too much of a utilitarian outlook. It is possible to see the atrocities in remote parts of the world as tragedies and in a detached way.

Some of the atrocities shown may only be the tip of the iceberg of conflict, especially as news is skewed in the other way. Here, I am talking of how some African people I have known have suggested that the portrayal of third world countries is often biased to show poverty while many who are not in the villages are thriving.

As far as the current war situations, they do have ripple like effects. Other countries are involved in political discussions. The worst scenario is that the conflicts could escalate and the catastrophic situation would be if world war broke out at this stage of technological advancement.