Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[amorphos_ii]

Other ‘worlds’

If we think of this universe as a world or realm so to say, then given its limits, this would suggest to me that there will be other ‘worlds’ out there. The occupants of another world, may think that their world is physical, take measurements and decide that there is nothing else except their world.

This could simply mean that there are ‘energies’ which do not interact with this world, either at all, or in limited fashion, or other things that are not energy but are never the less ‘real’. For example, there could be a mind based world which interacts with this one, but only in our minds. Indeed if we had instrumentation sophisticated enough to read what’s going on when someone is dreaming or having a vision, it may be possible to deduce mental content that does not originate in this world or our own minds.

So the question is; if the mind experiences something that is not earthly – let us say [of this world/universe], but is of the mind rather than a product of the brain, does that mean it isn’t real? If so, does that mean our minds are not real? Does it make sense to say that – what is real and not real anyhow!?

An illusion; if we saw a made up world on our computer screens, we could think of it as an illusion, but we would know that in fact it is composed of textures and meshes or more, computer code, and is not strictly speaking an illusion ~ even if its content is of say an illusory world which is not a world in real terms [e.g. skyrim].

The philosophical questions here are:

is there such a thing as an illusion, are we simply referring to content, in which case the ‘coding’ behind it is real?

When we have visions of other worlds, is that content but without coding behind it, or indeed without some kind of ‘energy’? Are we seeing another actual world?

Eternity; how can there be this limited universe and that’s all there is? What’s beyond that and beyond what’s [the said] beyond. Ultimately when we keep going beyond the beyond, surely there has to be something eternal or infinite.

Something real!
_

[ConsciousAI]

So the question is; if the mind experiences something that is not earthly – let us say [of this world/universe], but is of the mind rather than a product of the brain, does that mean it isn’t real?
...
When we have visions of other worlds, is that content but without coding behind it, or indeed without some kind of ‘energy’? Are we seeing another actual world?

Are you speaking of experience? I noticed in another topic that you have experienced mystical ancient visions of Greys (shining spirits of the moon).

In the Egyptian book of the dead there is a description of ‘the shining ones of the moon’ which arise and flit around seemingly travelling ‘somewhere’. Also known as grey spirits, and painted on caves across the world from Mayans to aboriginal cultures.
I also seen this vision but I think it was the same vision and one which all cultures across time have seen!

Did you have visions of extraterrestrial life on other planets? If so, could you please share some of them?

Eternity; how can there be this limited universe and that’s all there is? What’s beyond that and beyond what’s [the said] beyond. Ultimately when we keep going beyond the beyond, surely there has to be something eternal or infinite.

Something real!

The idea has to be might be valid within the context of curiosity to explore beyond the boundaries of the known, but perhaps not to rest a philosophical case upon.

The realm that you speak of might not concern anything real. Perhaps your question concerning "that’s all there is" forgets the experiencer that asks the question. Perhaps it is the question that it is all about in the first place.

Are you making a case for the Absolute?

[amorphos_ii]

Are you speaking of experience? I noticed in another topic that you have experienced mystical ancient visions of Greys (shining spirits of the moon).

Yes, can we experience something which is not real? All illusions have something making them, the falseness is in the content and not the thing. So one may see something in a dream which is ‘not real’, but here I am saying that the mind dreaming is real – akin to the coding in AI, and that what it sees can be contrived and not real. Consider Salem witch trials, people saw demons because they had eaten grain infected with fungi [ergot I think]. So here I am saying that the content was not real – made up, but the dream or vision is real – it is mind producing graphics, which are just as real as what’s on a computer monitor.
People can as I have, share dreams and visions, indeed some which were written in ancient books and so were experienced by other now long dead. These silver spirit communicate using dreams! So given instances where it is not our minds alone making things up, something real is out there which has mind/mental qualia, and can dream just as we do.

Did you have visions of extraterrestrial life on other planets? If so, could you please share some of them?

Lol are you taking the piss now? Some people see the greys as aliens, but it is their minds making them into that apparition.

Are you making a case for the Absolute?

Depends what we mean by that, I would say an amorphous entity that can manifest body and mind. Something absolute would be all there is, the whole of reality – where we are talking about the fundament of reality – what it is.

[ConsciousAI]

I noticed in another topic that you have experienced mystical ancient visions of Greys (shining spirits of the moon).

These silver spirit communicate using dreams! So given instances where it is not our minds alone making things up, something real is out there which has mind/mental qualia, and can dream just as we do.

Can you please tell more about that experience and what it might entail for theories about consciousness?

Did you have visions of extraterrestrial life on other planets? If so, could you please share some of them?

Lol are you taking the piss now? Some people see the greys as aliens, but it is their minds making them into that apparition.

The topic is called 'Other worlds' (as in extraterrestrial worlds?) and you wrote the following:

... if we had instrumentation sophisticated enough to read what’s going on when someone is dreaming or having a vision, it may be possible to deduce mental content that does not originate in this world or our own minds.
...
When we have visions of other worlds, is that content but without coding behind it, or indeed without some kind of ‘energy’? Are we seeing another actual world?

Are you making a case for the Absolute?

Depends what we mean by that, I would say an amorphous entity that can manifest body and mind. Something absolute would be all there is, the whole of reality – where we are talking about the fundament of reality – what it is.

Does the amorphous entity exist intrinsically? Why do you use the reference entity?

[amorphos_ii]

Can you please tell more about that experience and what it might entail for theories about consciousness?

Oh ok, people usually just think its a bit mad, but you are obviously more of an explorer than such small minded individuals.
Well, its a very big topic; dreams and mind. In short I first met a silver spirit or grey when using drugs and a ritual [no magic words, just someone making suggestions to my impressionised mind] to bring them.

So I met this spirit, and a green beam of light came out of its mouth and into mine, whereupon it was as if we were sharing each others minds through the medium of dream energy, for want of a better term.
Then another time a green beam came down from Caugant [the divine transparency, like space without the stars], the same beam as the kind which came from the greys mouth, and I was then attached to it. I remember thinking that it was if my mind or spirit body was on a clothes hanger and the beam was just above my head as I slide up it. Then I got scared as the realm of purple orbs became revealed, thinking I wouldn’t come back i.e. would die, so I went back into my body, which upon reflection was just ignorance.
Strangely, a few months later I woke up during a dream, where I was coming out of the realm of orbs and saying farewell to a lady I apparently knew from the other side. It was almost as if the vision and later dream, were bookends of something shared between two worlds, one known and the other unknown.

As for what that means for consciousness; that mind and consciousness can be shared by people and other beings or entities. Also that the spirit [orb] realms are mind worlds, which conscious beings can emerge from and return to, or into even.

The topic is called 'Other worlds' (as in extraterrestrial worlds?) and you wrote the following:

... if we had instrumentation sophisticated enough to read what’s going on when someone is dreaming or having a vision, it may be possible to deduce mental content that does not originate in this world or our own minds.

Soz, thought you were joking. Another planet is still in this ‘world’, if you take another look at the first line of the thread, I posited this universe as a ‘world’, ergo other worlds would not be other planets in this universe/world but somewhere else.

Does the amorphous entity exist intrinsically? Why do you use the reference entity?

Well the terms I use are because that’s all we have and we imagine things as separate. If we imagine the ‘space’ [i.e. not space as it is in the universe] before existence of universe or a given thing, then that’s what the amorphous ‘entity’ is. Perhaps the term ‘entity’ is misleading, the ancients druids, animists etc. considered it to be the origins of all things but not separate, so its an elastic space which simply stretches into its manifest forms, - its all one thing.

[Lagayascienza]

amorphos_ii, you raise some interesting questions.

I can't see how anyone can say that this world is, or is not, all that exists. Maybe we live in a multiverse of separate worlds/universes. If so, maybe these separate worlds/universes are as big as ours. The immense size of our universe and its expansion are why our sky is dark at night and not blazing like the sun all over. The size and expansion of our universe means that information cannot not reach us from its edge (if there is one) because of the finite speed of light. What we see when we look out into the depths of our own world/universe is galaxies getting redshifted as they race apart due to the expansion of space. That is why we see black space between the galaxies out to the edge of the distance we can observe. If our world/universe does have an edge, a place where it ends, light/signals from that edge cannot reach us and this means that signals from next door worlds cannot reach us either. Next door is just too far away. Unless there is some trick with worm holes that can be used. And even if our universe were smaller and a universe next door was close enough for us to receive electromatic signals from it, maybe these separate worlds/universes don't interact because the laws of physics within each of them are different. Or maybe they occupy different spatial dimensions that we cannot know about. We just don't know any of this and maybe we can never know. But, I don't think we can rule out, in principle, the existence of other worlds. But exchanging information with them is another, and perhaps even more difficult, question.

As for dreams, visions, hallucinations, etcetera, well, brains are perhaps as complicated as our universe is big. And so, another thing we still don't know, and may never know, is exactly how brains do what they do - How are dreams produced? What is consciousness? What is intuition? Are brains capable of understand their own workings. Answers to these questions still seem a long way off and may not be answerable. At least not in the foreseeable future.

[amorphos_ii]

Lagayscienza, and everyone. perhaps this less druid perspective will make more sense...

information cannot not reach us from its edge (if there is one)

To my understanding everywhere is a/the centre, if you drew a straight line through it, then you’d have something akin to a ball of string. Consider then that we continue to draw the line on all tangents such that it went everywhere [still a straight line]. Now you have every part of the universe on said line, and nothing outside of it.
No reason why you cant then take another line and do the same thing! This time beginning at another epicentre of the infinite amorphous reality – that is to say the reality without or prior to the drawing of the lines, or in which the line of the universe exists/has been drawn.

I reckon both those lines could be equally physical/manifest, and without any interaction aside from that they both sit within the same original space!

Now I will make a jump in my reasoning; this universe we live in, is a manifestation of facets within the original infinite ‘space’.
So the given other line would be a manifestation of different facets from the same original infinite space. Different because its a bit like a jamboree box, you dip your hand into the sand and pick out a surprise. It stands to reason that you can’t do that twice, because you have already taken the prize ~ out of the box!

Ergo the second line will have different content and perhaps properties to the first. It could for example, absolutely BE ‘mind’. That mind would require ‘body’ or a space to exist it, but would not be bound by physicality. This because physicality has already been taken out of the box. Therefore it has its own line.

For each universal we could and I think should, draw a line or a facet or property of the line. So we could say that ‘time’ is a universal, but if it had its own line then it wouldn’t make sense, especially that we live in a universe which has time in some manner.

How are dreams produced? What is consciousness? What is intuition?

The realm or ‘world’ of mind, has body. This body is a different toy in the jamboree box ~ to our physical body.

In druidry the dream realm or world, is the first manifestation of ‘body’. Then in the ‘middle earth’ it attains the aggregate of physicality ~ which is the ‘body’ of the universe/line. Finally – in terms of manifestation, we get the solar realm or world, and its body or forms can be seen in visions.

As a graph we would see a curve of manifestation from simple [dreams] to complex [nature] and on to the sophisticated and succinct [upper spiritual or soul-like [the Sahu to the ancient Egyptians].

I don’t see any limit to how much and how varied are the prizes to be found in the jamboree box.

_

[Lagayascienza]

That's an interesting way of looking at it, amorphos_ii. Would your idea depend on there being further spatial dimensions, that is, more than just the three we have epistemic access to? If so, I'm wondering how the idea could be tested empirically. The various versions of string theory posit such extra dimensions but, because there is no way to discover if these extra spatial dimensions actually exist, string theories are not supported by empirical evidence and so it's hard to know whether they are pointing to anything real or not.

[amorphos_ii]

I took my examples from things I think do exist like e.g. the subjective observer, There is no TV screen inside the mind, which I think has to be seeing the world from an external perspective. Because we are the observer and we are ‘mind’, then this mindness is an external [to the physical] facet of reality.
Because optical illusions can show us that our minds/brains are drawing their perceived reality [as mental qualia], but that that sensory image cannot be seen occurring, then the observers world is occurring elsewhere [not in the brain] but is never the less real. Everything we see feel, smell and hear etc is sensory data presented to the observer.
e.g. if we see a red car in our minds eye, then if we say that to someone else, which they then concur upon what the object is, both parties are communicating the coloured image of the car which itself does not exist in the brain. That is, we cannot cut a brain open and see the world it is seeing, as if like there is a monitor inside our brains.

The next question for me is; we can speak of what we know or assume exists like consciousness and mind, and that they are drawn from the same infinite ‘space’, but what else is in the sand box of the jamboree? In short there could be facets or expressions being plucked out of the ether, which are coming through in a different dimension – for want of a better term.

Here’s a mind game; try to think of something else which could be inside the sand box, but isn’t part of this world et al?

It’s impossible right!…?

I am inclined to think that the prizes hidden in the sand of the sand box, don’t exist until their respective reality exists.

_

[ConsciousAI]

Can you please tell more about that experience and what it might entail for theories about consciousness?

Oh ok, people usually just think its a bit mad, but you are obviously more of an explorer than such small minded individuals.

Thank you for sharing that insightful vision! Hopefully others will benefit from it.

From a certain perspective philosophy itself is mad since it ventures beyond the boundaries of what is culturally intellectually understood. Some might use poetic experiences, others mystical experiences.

Mysticism used to be a profound part of philosophy, with scholarly approaches to mysticism including typologies of mysticism and the explanation of mystical states since the 19th century. Before the time of the TV and internet, mystical experiences might be one of the primary methods for finding meaning in life.

The interest in mysticism has faded away in a humanly world maturing into a cultural state of materialism. Most people growing up today might have no idea what it would be about and why people would seek such experiences.

Therefore your ability and interest, especially since it is connected to philosophical exploration (advancing intellectual progress for the human specie), might be considered of potential high importance.

With regard the topic. Your topic raises interesting questions. I am unable to answer those myself, but I did ask them myself from several perspectives, and I haven't been able to answer them yet.

The question appears to be: is there truthfulness involved in such mental experiences and how could that potentially be proven? Perhaps the meaning is all that one can take from it, and from that perspective, it might all be relative. But perhaps there is something else to it. Might it be of vital importance that the human learns to understand what it involves?

Did you read about the experiences of Monica Gagliano? She described similar experiences with plant spirits, and published about it as a scientist, and she has a special interest in philosophy. Her latest book is called "Thus Spoke the Plant: A Remarkable Journey of Groundbreaking Scientific Discoveries and Personal Encounters with Plants" (in line with Nietzsche's Thus, spoke Zarathustra)

Her experiences are not with other human-like spirits, but with plants.

As for what that means for consciousness; that mind and consciousness can be shared by people and other beings or entities. Also that the spirit [orb] realms are mind worlds, which conscious beings can emerge from and return to, or into even.

Interesting! Do you have an idea how that can be explained? What is the primary difference between the material world and that spiritual realm? What would explain that a whole 'spirit' can come out of it, and perhaps develop itself within that realm?

I posited this universe as a ‘world’, ergo other worlds would not be other planets in this universe/world but somewhere else.

My apologies. You are correct. But how can there be multiple 'other worlds' in your opinion? Can you name one difference between any of those other worlds?

Does the amorphous entity exist intrinsically? Why do you use the reference entity?

Well the terms I use are because that’s all we have and we imagine things as separate. If we imagine the ‘space’ [i.e. not space as it is in the universe] before existence of universe or a given thing, then that’s what the amorphous ‘entity’ is. Perhaps the term ‘entity’ is misleading, the ancients druids, animists etc. considered it to be the origins of all things but not separate, so its an elastic space which simply stretches into its manifest forms, - its all one thing.

Isn't one, one to much, when what is referenced is the source of any one?

[amorphos_ii]

A highly intelligent approach there!

The question appears to be: is there truthfulness involved in such mental experiences and how could that potentially be proven?

Same way as how hopefully one day will be able to detect qualia, or more, the means by which real physical energy patterns correlate with mental qualia to draw what we see. A dream or vision are very much versions of mental qualia ~ or mental qualia, dreams, visions are versions of mind. Perhaps when mind is expressed or impressed upon, it forms mental qualia. Maybe energy like light do the same with ‘qualities’ of say colours.
I would think then, that qualities are a likeness with qualia!

I am wondering if mind/life is more like a matrix that an instrument like part of the brain. We need to understand the brains matrix [with AI], as opposed say, looking for the instrument of self, which wont exist.

Did you read about the experiences of Monica Gagliano? She described similar experiences with plant spirits, and published about it as a scientist, and she has a special interest in philosophy. Her latest book is called "Thus Spoke the Plant: A Remarkable Journey of Groundbreaking Scientific Discoveries and Personal Encounters with Plants" (in line with Nietzsche's Thus, spoke Zarathustra)

Her experiences are not with other human-like spirits, but with plants.

No I don’t do so much reading now, as its a bit of a strain for my eyes. Well plants and creatures originate in the same biology, and so life and mind will be in them. Given that is, as I think, that there are no breaks in the line; if we go [the line], human, dog, mouse, crab, insect, where do we stop? There is something in the matrixes of DNA, which once activated in living form, become ‘aliveness’. That is, there is ‘mind’ and that’s a fundament of reality or at least a primary nature of reality. Then the matrix of DNA attracts and makes utility of mind, the ultimate expression [so far] of which is human intelligence.
[btw 'druid' means oak-seer]

Interesting! Do you have an idea how that can be explained? What is the primary difference between the material world and that spiritual realm? What would explain that a whole 'spirit' can come out of it, and perhaps develop itself within that realm?

i would like to find ways to make explanation in a purer way - without the religion and spirit.

- There is one thing at the base of all things. It can be mind or entity or form [lets say body/physics]. The material world attracts or utilises the mind with respect to itself [which is the difference]. Yet itself is a corroboration between mind and brain and so there is a third party. Our ability to take the subjective perspective, and to think in abstracts, means we can use the functions of the intellect ad hoc. Hence we can use the brain and mind to dream.

how can there be multiple 'other worlds' in your opinion? Can you name one difference between any of those other worlds?

Can we imagine an eighth colour?

Well, the Egyptians thought the Sahu [soul] was a body of the otherworld. So we could imagine this to be like energy but totally a different entity. I visualise it as like mind is the pivot or axis, and the material form is a projection on one side, then the Sahu form is a projection on the opposite side. Because the other side is not material, then it [the sahu and its other world] is not subject to the laws of the material, but can however communicate via the qualia/quality matrix relationship occurring.

Isn't one, one to much, when what is referenced is the source of any one?

This is the critical thing, calling the fundament of reality a oneness is immediately wrong, and yet there is no absolute degree of distinction. I use it to portray a particular relativistic stance let us say. So it is a oneness when you look at it that way, but separate when looked at in another way – with distinctions. This is why perhaps ‘amorphous’ is the truest sentiment, but we could also say that reality is perspective based! Ergo we are just looking at the same thing in different ways. Its all [the ultimate truth] in a rainbow.