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Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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By Lagayascienza
#449598
Hereandnow wrote: November 12th, 2023, 11:32 am

Our ethics IS Ethics. The struggle to do right and not do wrong is a metaphysical struggle after all. I count this as revelatory. Christians and other popular religion-based metaphysicians try to say this, but they are completely undisciplined in their dogmas and habits, and cling to ancient narratives that pervert their ethical and metaphysical thinking.
Yes, I agree that the metaphysical baggage, the religious dogma and doctrine, can encumber clear thinking in ethics.

And, personally, I’m unconvinced that science does not or cannot give a satisfying account ethics, at least of where our morality came from and what we are doing when me moralize. I would agree that science cannot tell us whether a particular action is morally right or wrong. For that, if we are atheists, we need to plug into our evolved moral sentiments that we must experience subjectively. There is no objective moral-o-meter against which to measure the morality of an action. There is just this subjective experience of our moral sentiments. Is it this subjective experience of our moral sentiments that is of primary interest to the phenomenologist? If so, I’m still not clear on what phenomenology does with it. Where does it go from there? Does it then move to empiricism? If not, if it’s just concerned with this subjective experience of moral sentiments, then I’m having a hard time figuring out what phenomenology is interested in, or how phenomenology approaches ethics once this subjective experience is apprehended. I mean, how does it deal with the metaethical question of what morality is, of moral properties for example, of what we are doing when we moralize... If it does give an account of metaethics (as I understand the term) can it then move from metaethics to normative and to practical ethics? It all seems amorphous and unstructured and nebulous to me. Which is why I keep asking questions about it. I’m sorry to have to keep asking for explanations and I thank you for those you have provided so far.

I think it would help a lot if you could give an example of how a phenomenologist would deal with the foundational question of morality. Maybe start off with something clear and simple such as “I, Hereandnow, am contemplating doing X. However, I have a subjective experience of moral wrongness when I contemplate doing X. I therefore decide against doing X” What just happened there, according to a phenomenologist?
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
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By Count Lucanor
#449608
Sy Borg wrote: November 13th, 2023, 2:11 am
Count Lucanor wrote: November 13th, 2023, 12:57 am
Hereandnow wrote: November 12th, 2023, 7:57 pm
I don't argue against any of this. The devil is in the details: dismantling? This is a reductive move, dismissing what lies outside of the inquiry to isolate what the analysis is all about. Philosophy has one job: to do this reduction down to the level of the most basic assumptions of knowledge claims, which means looking into the the very nature of what it is to even have a knowledge claim. Hence the philosophical category, epistemology. Epistemology is the study of what it means for S to know P, qua knowing at all, and this leads the relation between the knower and the known. I begin such an inquiry with the most basic question: what is this relationship about? How can describe it? What are the features of it that are in play? I mean, if I were a physicist asking about the relation between two things, this would not only be a very good line of questioning; it would be the only way to approach it. So my inquiry into the nature of religion begins with this simple, in terms of the way the original question is conceived, exposure of what this relation really is, at the most basic level.
When you say "philosophy has one job" and that it is an epistemic reduction, concerned only with knowledge claims, we arrive to the impoverishment of philosophy. The world is no longer an object of inquiry, because supposedly, according to phenomenalism, we have no access to any independent reality, but only to phenomena, that is, the objects within consciousness.
It's a fair point, really. Our senses are simply not evolved to perceive many things that are going on in reality. Consider how many cause-effect relations slip under our radar.

Science has profoundly extended our range of perception. Yet - in reality - we are tiny streaks on an immense four-dimensional fractal helix that is the travel of the Earth through space in time.

Reality is more bizarre than we can imagine, but evolution filters out enough weirdness for us to survive and reproduce.
It would be a fair point, although disputable, but that’s not the point of antirealism.
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
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By Lagayascienza
#449618
Hereandnow, further to my post above:

In the Anglosphere, logical positivism/analytic philosophy, once it became aware of its shortcomings and underwent something of a “deconstruction” and “reformation”, continued to greatly inform and shape philosophical ethics. That analytical philosophical tradition is all I know. Within its structure I can situate the various metaethical positions - realism, anti-realism etc. However, I understand, from what you have said, that ethical debate within the Continental philosophical tradition has a starting point, an approach and, perhaps, a structure that is quite different from the Analytic tradition.

I’ve tried to get a feel for phenomenological ethics by reading up on it, but I can’t seem to make much sense of it (shades of my youthful attempts at reading Heidegger). I don’t seem to be able to get past the noesis, that which is given in the intentional act. I don’t get how the epoché is supposed to work. Surely there must be some point at which the phenomenologist’s apprehension of what is presented subjectively to consciousness will need to be informed by, and merge with, the everyday, with myriad contextual elements from the mundane world. I don’t see how this would not then lead necessarily into empiricism. That is why I have asked for further clarification, for a simple everyday-language account of the phenomenological approach to ethics. Once I get to grips with its approach to ethics, I might then be in a position to understand phenomenology more broadly.

Above, I mentioned the superstructure within which ethical debate has taken place in the Western analytic tradition. There is metaethics which deals with foundational issues such as value (and wherein one finds attempts at overarching theories such as realism, anti-realism, divine command theory, evolutionary ethics), then there is normative ethics (which looks at the meaning of moral language, and which proposes various schemes that are supposed to offer broad guidelines on how we should act, such as consequentialism, deontological/rule based systems, virtue ethics, etcetera) and, finally, there is applied ethics (what one should do in everyday situations based on a normative position which is more or less assumed). I’ve spent half a lifetime trying to get my head around all this stuff. Is there anything comparable to this philosophical ethical superstructure in the Continental/phenomenological tradition?
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
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By Hereandnow
#449619
Count Lucanor wrote

When you say "philosophy has one job" and that it is an epistemic reduction, concerned only with knowledge claims, we arrive to the impoverishment of philosophy. The world is no longer an object of inquiry, because supposedly, according to phenomenalism, we have no access to any independent reality, but only to phenomena, that is, the objects within consciousness. The disputes against phenomenalism and antirealist (idealist) phenomenology are well known and I'm not going to repeat that debate now, but concerning the approach to the study of religion I will recapitulate my case: the basic scheme, the abstraction that might be regarded as "the essence" is an impoverished reduction that can only accommodate a superficial analysis, committed only by principle to the essence within the interpretation, to the abstraction process itself, away from all the richness of the concrete realities. As Czech philosopher Kosic puts it :

"The directness of 'essential' thought skips the essential. Its chase after the essential ends in hunting down a thing without its essence, a mere abstraction or triviality"
Epistemology is not just about knowledge claims, and this is paramount: ontology and epistemology are essentially a unity, and this follows quite readily from a brief analysis which acknowledges that it is impossible for an entity to exist unless it is affirmed to exist. Put it this way: if it is posited that X exists without the justification, then X looses all validity ontologically as well. You can say, of course, that a thing has an existence independent perceptual awareness, and I would agree only if you accepted that any claim about this independence QUA independence is a metaphysical claim. Thus, when science speaks confidently about rain forests and plate tectonics, it is not trying to give us a metaphysics because science doesn't do this. Not its purview. This is for philosophy to consider.

Yes, I know this is counter to the ways things seem. But you know, one has to get over this and face facts. The lingering question remains untouched by your response: how it is anything "out there" can get inside a brain thing? The epistemic crisis IS an ontological crisis. Unless, that is, you can explain how positing something without justification actually works.

Certainly I don't want you to repeat some standard debate. This is the debate. I write too much, yes. But I'll be more efficient.

What we are after is not the abstract concept of religion, but religion itself. Let's not complicate ourselves asking whether our inquiry into the matter is scientific or philosophical (one cannot go too far without the other), nor relegate or reduce the scientific part to physics, but let's put the object of our investigation where it belongs: in the complex web of the social system, in a totality that is to be comprehended as a concrete realization, a product of human action, which has a genealogy, a development, a history. As such, it cannot be eternized in a fixed concept, its supposed universal, timeless essentiality. We can surely make abstractions of the concrete practices of religion and come up with some common themes, but this implies a repetitive journey from the particular and concrete to the general and abstract, and back to the concrete. Marx's account of religion as "the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of our soulless conditions" seems pretty accurate when describing modern forms of religion, but not necessarily applies to all of human history. No one thinks the pharaohs were oppressed creatures.

Not clear why how you make the move from "religion itself" to talk about social phenomena, unless you think it is exclusively a phenomenon. But is this the way science goes? Is the the red shift of a moving star's spectrum analyzable in terms of its social dimensions? No. In order to arrive at the essence of religion, one has to examine two philosophical inquiries, and the first is about the epistemological foundation of all knowledge claims. This is important because religion is essentially a metaphysics, and metaphysics has to be approached in terms of an epistemic deficit vis a vis the world. This brings up yet again the question of the relation between us and the world we know. Consider: science is not a "merely" social phenomenon. The "physical" relation between a knower and the known necessarily is, well, epistemic. The question asked of science regards the possibility of this relation in terms science understands. The question is really quite simple.

I disagree. One could expect that from scientists or philosophers of science not strongly committed to realism, but that is hardly the norm in the disciplines of science and materialist ontology. No discipline rests on the absoluteness of certainty, but that's not to say they become agnostic in the face of the possibility of discovery of universal and necessary truths. That's why I'd rather look at Bunge instead of Rorty.
Then take certainty as too strong. What knowledge seeks is the greatest proximity to certainty possible; the removal of doubt insofar as possible. Note that this takes us already back to the epistemic issue. Realism is an ontological claim, and we are all realists while in the classroom or reading texts about science. Crystal clear on this. The question of essence of religion is not a question science even begins to write about because it does not deal with the radical indeterminacy of our existence. The reason I talk in terms of the "physicality" of an epistemic relation is to reveal why science cannot do this, as its bottom line for all relations is causality.

The idea here is certainly not to bring questions that undermine the integrity of what science is saying. It is to raise an entirely unscientific question that science has to at the very least simply yield to, this matter about epistemic possibility, the first of two questions that approach the issue of a religious foundation.
But something being a social phenomenon is exactly different from being vacuous. Actually, it is because of its social determination, its relation with power and ideology, that it becomes relevant. Relevance here means, of course, not a "deeply important dimension of our existence", but a persistent influence over truly important dimensions of human existence, an influence that rests, precisely, on the "incidentals of its entanglements", which is the reason why we can do away with it. We don't need it and we could be better off without it.
I couldn't agree more about getting rid of religion, to put it bluntly, though I am reminded of Chomsky's response: but consider that the least advantaged people of the world born into poverty, disease and misery. Religion is not a thesis to them, nor simply a social structure. It is salvation from suffering, and suffering is not a social construct. This ushers in the second of the two lines of inquiry I mentioned above, First epistemology/ontology; second: value, as Wittgenstein conceived it in the Tractatus. Put starkly, why are we born to suffer and die?
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
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By Lagayascienza
#449620
...why are we born to suffer and die?


We are born to suffer (and perhaps experience some joy) and die, because that is what the universe has been able to produce out of the raw materials and the available energy on a planet like ours. I know that would be no comfort to a little girl scavenging on a garbage dump in a country of vast inequality. But I cannot think of any other answer. And if phenomenology, or religion, can give that little girl a truer answer, and not just a salve, I'd love to know what it is.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
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By Hereandnow
#449628
Lagayscienza wrote
Above, I mentioned the superstructure within which ethical debate has taken place in the Western analytic tradition. There is metaethics which deals with foundational issues such as value (and wherein one finds attempts at overarching theories such as realism, anti-realism, divine command theory, evolutionary ethics), then there is normative ethics (which looks at the meaning of moral language, and which proposes various schemes that are supposed to offer broad guidelines on how we should act, such as consequentialism, deontological/rule based systems, virtue ethics, etcetera) and, finally, there is applied ethics (what one should do in everyday situations based on a normative position which is more or less assumed). I’ve spent half a lifetime trying to get my head around all this stuff. Is there anything comparable to this philosophical ethical superstructure in the Continental/phenomenological tradition?
Consider that one has to take Husserl at his word. From his Cartesian Meditations:

anyone who seriously intends to become a philosopher
must "once in his life" withdraw into himself and
attempt, within himself, to overthrow and build anew all the sciences
that, up to then, he has been accepting. Philosophy wisdom
(sagesse) is the philosophizer's quite personal affair. It must
arise as his wisdom, as his self-acquired knowledge tending
toward universality, a knowledge for which he can answer from
the beginning, and at each step, by virtue of his own absolute
insights. If I have decided to live with this as my aim the
decision that alone can start me on the course of a
philosophical development I have thereby chosen to begin in absolute
poverty,
with an absolute lack of knowledge. Beginning thus,
obviously one of the first things I ought to do is reflect on how
I might find a method for going on, a method that promises to
lead to genuine knowing.


Sure, I've read about most of what you refer to on ethics, more here, less there, but I do understand what this is about. There is a reason why Wittgenstein turned his back during his meeting with the Vienna Circle reading poetry or if anyone dared speak of ethics. He stood with them against any attempt to say what ethics and logic were and was dismissive of metaphysics as an articulated thesis to speak about something one can only witness. Wittgenstein made every effort to be placed on the front of engagement during the war because he wanted to know what it was like to face death. Extraordinary for someone who denied metaphysics because we generally think such a denial implies an ethical nihilism to match the epistemological nihilism. But accounts show it was't like this at all. He refused to talk about such things not because he thought they are without meaning, but because they had far too much meaning to be violated by the foolish finitudes of human "nonsense" thinking. One cannot speak the world, so to speak. One cannot capture in metaphysics the presence of presented things. They are just there. This is the threshold of this radical indeterminacy a try talk about without violating Wittgenstein's taboo. There is Husserl taking us to this "absolute poverty" of inquiry, all schools in abeyance, as Walt Whitman once put it. Science is simply put down like a book one has been reading a very long time. Whenever one gets this far and is willing to go to that alien place where the world is once again new and face it as if for the first time, one encounters, if the move is successful, a new world. This is phenomenology. I would argue that this is where religious thought finds its center, which is not a center at all, Derrida says, because centers are where ideas have their axiomatic basis for context, and their are no metaphysical axioms. No, religions center is existential, or in the radically reduced world of pure givenness.
I’ve tried to get a feel for phenomenological ethics by reading up on it, but I can’t seem to make much sense of it (shades of my youthful attempts at reading Heidegger). I don’t seem to be able to get past the noesis, that which is given in the intentional act. I don’t get how the epoché is supposed to work. Surely there must be some point at which the phenomenologist’s apprehension of what is presented subjectively to consciousness will need to be informed by, and merge with, the everyday, with myriad contextual elements from the mundane world. I don’t see how this would not then lead necessarily into empiricism. That is why I have asked for further clarification, for a simple everyday-language account of the phenomenological approach to ethics. Once I get to grips with its approach to ethics, I might then be in a position to understand phenomenology more broadly.
Perhaps you will find this passage from Michel Henry (from his Essence of Manifestation), a post Husserlian, post Heideggerian. Lengthy, but there is a lot in this:

If the concept of phenomenology is easy to grasp in its negative
meaning insofar as it implies the putting between parentheses (suspending) of all
interpretations and constructions which theoretical thought super-imposes
upon the real
to the point of mistaking its own products for reality and
of hypostatizing them as an absolute form, its positive determination
[611-precisely because it aims at introducing us into the realm of
positivity,--demands an analysis. Such an analysis must be centered
around the idea of phenomenon because as a science of phenomena,
phenomenology pretends to stick exclusively to that which manifests
itself precisely as it manifests itself. We are the true positivists, as
Husserl said. Certainly it is a question here of taking exception to
empiricism and of admitting as the source for the rights of knowledge
"not merely the sensory seeing of experience, but seeing in general as
primordial datum consciousness of any kind whatsoever.'" It is when
the specifically theoretical element of knowledge limits itself to expressing
the intuitive data in the meanings which strictly correspond to it,
that it can serve as a foundation for the further development of knowledge
and thus be what Husserl calls an 'absolute beginning' or a
'principle'. Because it rests precisely upon that which shows itself in
itself and as it is, the phenomenological proposition claims to have an
absolute value. Actually the appearance to which it refers is absolute,
precisely insofar as it is an appearance. That which appears is that
which we cannot challenge, that which escapes reduction


Husserl's technical talk about noesis is just that: technical. Not that this is wrong or right, just that before one gets into these analytic details, one has to make that pretty weird move to think like a phenomenologist, which means doing the epoche, and this at first an explicit cognitive act of removing from one's "interpretative gaze" a great deal that is doing the interpreting "always already" as Heidegger put it. This is a method of achieving an "absolute beginning." What actually happens in this reduction is something already there in the understanding but needs to be articulated and freed from aporia: we are looking for metaphysics that is "behind" the physics and traditionally things have gone nowhere. But there has always been the abiding understanding that there has to be some intimate link between what we see and think every day and metaphysics, after all, metaphysics is such that without it, physics simply is nothing at all. That means the metaphysics is somehow IN the appearance of the thing and not behind it. The move is Cartesian: I can doubt everything science is saying simply because its conclusion are not apriori but aposteriori, whcih means the argument is inductive, based on repeatable results. The epistemic requirement is always toward certainty and logic gives us the model for this, but the world's presence is not a logical statement. Is there anything about the world that is as certain as logic? Phenomenologists say yes. This is the world's being there, its essential givenness, for while one can doubt the sun will rise tomorrow, one cannot doubt the presence of the glowing brightness of the phenomenon we call the sun itself. It is impossible to deny that some actuality is there.


But in the analysis of Ideas I, it is made clear these bare intuitions AS bare intuitions are received by a categorizing mind (thought itself is, like science, categorical, here a lamp, there a coffee cup. These are instantiations of general ideas, and thus we have there "eidetic" settings or horizons and these too must be in the presence qua presence. The pure presence of the world that science sits upon like a superstructure.

There is some awkwardness in this as stated. Oh well. Kind of clear, I think, the way this thinking works. Kant was the first phenomenologist as he took the judgments of everydayness and sought to discover their structure. In doing so, he put the world itself as it is given under a analytic microscope, looking for the essence of reason.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
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By Sy Borg
#449631
Count Lucanor wrote: November 13th, 2023, 9:14 am
Sy Borg wrote: November 13th, 2023, 2:11 am
Count Lucanor wrote: November 13th, 2023, 12:57 am
Hereandnow wrote: November 12th, 2023, 7:57 pm
I don't argue against any of this. The devil is in the details: dismantling? This is a reductive move, dismissing what lies outside of the inquiry to isolate what the analysis is all about. Philosophy has one job: to do this reduction down to the level of the most basic assumptions of knowledge claims, which means looking into the the very nature of what it is to even have a knowledge claim. Hence the philosophical category, epistemology. Epistemology is the study of what it means for S to know P, qua knowing at all, and this leads the relation between the knower and the known. I begin such an inquiry with the most basic question: what is this relationship about? How can describe it? What are the features of it that are in play? I mean, if I were a physicist asking about the relation between two things, this would not only be a very good line of questioning; it would be the only way to approach it. So my inquiry into the nature of religion begins with this simple, in terms of the way the original question is conceived, exposure of what this relation really is, at the most basic level.
When you say "philosophy has one job" and that it is an epistemic reduction, concerned only with knowledge claims, we arrive to the impoverishment of philosophy. The world is no longer an object of inquiry, because supposedly, according to phenomenalism, we have no access to any independent reality, but only to phenomena, that is, the objects within consciousness.
It's a fair point, really. Our senses are simply not evolved to perceive many things that are going on in reality. Consider how many cause-effect relations slip under our radar.

Science has profoundly extended our range of perception. Yet - in reality - we are tiny streaks on an immense four-dimensional fractal helix that is the travel of the Earth through space in time.

Reality is more bizarre than we can imagine, but evolution filters out enough weirdness for us to survive and reproduce.
It would be a fair point, although disputable, but that’s not the point of antirealism.
That point is basically that mind comes before matter.

Let's consider it. Obviously this would not be anything like an animal/human mind. Still, it's possible in the extraordinary complexity of the Earth and the universe generally, that there may be types of consciousnesses around that we can't yet detect. For instance, if we lived within a conscious system/s, how could we know? Would there be tell-tale signs? Or would the inside view seem the same whether a containing system was conscious or not?
User avatar
By Count Lucanor
#449640
Hereandnow wrote: November 13th, 2023, 11:49 am
Epistemology is not just about knowledge claims, and this is paramount: ontology and epistemology are essentially a unity, and this follows quite readily from a brief analysis which acknowledges that it is impossible for an entity to exist unless it is affirmed to exist.
This statement needs to be rephrased to become true: "Philosophy is not just about knowledge claims, and this is paramount: ontology and epistemology are essentially a unity within philosophy".
Hereandnow wrote: November 13th, 2023, 11:49 am Put it this way: if it is posited that X exists without the justification, then X looses all validity ontologically as well. You can say, of course, that a thing has an existence independent perceptual awareness, and I would agree only if you accepted that any claim about this independence QUA independence is a metaphysical claim. Thus, when science speaks confidently about rain forests and plate tectonics, it is not trying to give us a metaphysics because science doesn't do this. Not its purview. This is for philosophy to consider.
This is disputable. The findings of science do have metaphysical and epistemological implications, even if that is not its primary incentive. Philosophy cannot be on its own without taking into account empirical sciences and science cannot do well without a philosophical foundation.
Hereandnow wrote: November 13th, 2023, 11:49 am Yes, I know this is counter to the ways things seem. But you know, one has to get over this and face facts. The lingering question remains untouched by your response: how it is anything "out there" can get inside a brain thing? The epistemic crisis IS an ontological crisis. Unless, that is, you can explain how positing something without justification actually works.
Acknowledging the existence of a "brain thing" means one cannot get around the fact that there's a thing that is not equivalent to its apprehension or the faculty that apprehends the thing. Even the most radical idealists must posit an internal/external distinction, a sort of objectiveness in the relation between the perceived reality (the known) and the knower within the purely sensorial domain, and so, applying the same criteria he uses against the realist, ends up joining the ranks of the philosophers in crisis, finding no justification for things (whatever their ontological nature may be) actually being "in there", and not just the way they seem. The epistemic crisis, if there's ever one, cannot discriminate, leaving no other option but epistemological nihilism, which is the end of philosophy and any science.
Hereandnow wrote: November 13th, 2023, 11:49 am Not clear why how you make the move from "religion itself" to talk about social phenomena, unless you think it is exclusively a phenomenon. But is this the way science goes? Is the the red shift of a moving star's spectrum analyzable in terms of its social dimensions? No.
All I have done is to move from religion itself to society itself, since religion is the product of human subjects. To say that something is social, to say that it has a social dimension, is to say that it refers to human collectivity. It's a simple classificatory operation.
Hereandnow wrote: November 13th, 2023, 11:49 am In order to arrive at the essence of religion, one has to examine two philosophical inquiries, and the first is about the epistemological foundation of all knowledge claims. This is important because religion is essentially a metaphysics, and metaphysics has to be approached in terms of an epistemic deficit vis a vis the world. This brings up yet again the question of the relation between us and the world we know. Consider: science is not a "merely" social phenomenon. The "physical" relation between a knower and the known necessarily is, well, epistemic. The question asked of science regards the possibility of this relation in terms science understands. The question is really quite simple.
First, the epistemological foundation of all knowledge claims in idealist phenomenology is shaky. It cannot solve the epistemic problem it has brought upon itself, which is supposedly the first problem to solve, so the rest becomes a waste of time, as it cannot provide further insights on anything. Secondly, we can agree that religion is metaphysics, since it is all about what there really is. Its epistemic failure, the way I see it, comes from its naive naked-eye approach, as I explained earlier.
Hereandnow wrote: November 13th, 2023, 11:49 am Then take certainty as too strong. What knowledge seeks is the greatest proximity to certainty possible; the removal of doubt insofar as possible. Note that this takes us already back to the epistemic issue. Realism is an ontological claim, and we are all realists while in the classroom or reading texts about science. Crystal clear on this. The question of essence of religion is not a question science even begins to write about because it does not deal with the radical indeterminacy of our existence. The reason I talk in terms of the "physicality" of an epistemic relation is to reveal why science cannot do this, as its bottom line for all relations is causality.
Any stance on realism is both an ontological and epistemological claim, you can't get around that. Once you have decided the so-called epistemic problem is solvable, which entails realism, there's no reason why science could not say a lot of things about religion. It already says a lot of things about our existence, so it's hard to guess what is that "radical indeterminacy" that you talk about.
Hereandnow wrote: November 13th, 2023, 11:49 am I couldn't agree more about getting rid of religion, to put it bluntly, though I am reminded of Chomsky's response: but consider that the least advantaged people of the world born into poverty, disease and misery. Religion is not a thesis to them, nor simply a social structure. It is salvation from suffering, and suffering is not a social construct. This ushers in the second of the two lines of inquiry I mentioned above, First epistemology/ontology; second: value, as Wittgenstein conceived it in the Tractatus. Put starkly, why are we born to suffer and die?
I'm not so sure that suffering is not a social construct, at least not socially determined, although it depends on what we mean by "suffering". Is it my sadness because I missed my favorite band's concert? Or just the physical pain when I hit my knee with the corner of the table?
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
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By Count Lucanor
#449642
Sy Borg wrote: November 13th, 2023, 5:34 pm That point is basically that mind comes before matter.

Let's consider it. Obviously this would not be anything like an animal/human mind. Still, it's possible in the extraordinary complexity of the Earth and the universe generally, that there may be types of consciousnesses around that we can't yet detect. For instance, if we lived within a conscious system/s, how could we know? Would there be tell-tale signs? Or would the inside view seem the same whether a containing system was conscious or not?
Again, that's not the point antirealism has been trying to make. To the question: "does anything exist independently of our consciousness?" the antirealist answers: "no, nothing else exists" or "we can never know anything else exists". Another version is: "they do exist, but we can never know exactly how they are, because how they appear to us is caused by ourselves and not by the things in themselves".
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
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By Sy Borg
#449646
Count Lucanor wrote: November 13th, 2023, 8:24 pm
Sy Borg wrote: November 13th, 2023, 5:34 pm That point is basically that mind comes before matter.

Let's consider it. Obviously this would not be anything like an animal/human mind. Still, it's possible in the extraordinary complexity of the Earth and the universe generally, that there may be types of consciousnesses around that we can't yet detect. For instance, if we lived within a conscious system/s, how could we know? Would there be tell-tale signs? Or would the inside view seem the same whether a containing system was conscious or not?
Again, that's not the point antirealism has been trying to make. To the question: "does anything exist independently of our consciousness?" the antirealist answers: "no, nothing else exists" or "we can never know anything else exists". Another version is: "they do exist, but we can never know exactly how they are, because how they appear to us is caused by ourselves and not by the things in themselves".
Then I'll have to keep on fishing until I get a catch :)

The first stance you mention is straight solipsism and the second stance is suggestive of solipsism. I think solipsism is not quite coherent. There's too much going on that can be explained by the laws of physics, although if we existed within a larger consciousness we'd probably not be able to tell. One might look for anomalies, but one can never be certain of the causes of anomalies. Generally, the explanations tend to be prosaic.

The third notion would seem to be the standard epistemological issue that Kant raised - phenomena v noumena. Yes, we'll never know what it's like to be a bat. We will never even quite understand the "rockness" of rocks, always engaging at a distance. Even so, being within rather than observing from the outside doesn't seem much help either. Some people are better understood by outsiders than by themselves.

To fully understand any entity, one would seemingly need to observe it from both within (as the entity) and outside (not the entity) simultaneously over an extended period, which does not appear to be a feature of human/animal consciousness a this stage.
User avatar
By Hereandnow
#449679
Lagayscienza wrote
We are born to suffer (and perhaps experience some joy) and die, because that is what the universe has been able to produce out of the raw materials and the available energy on a planet like ours. I know that would be no comfort to a little girl scavenging on a garbage dump in a country of vast inequality. But I cannot think of any other answer. And if phenomenology, or religion, can give that little girl a truer answer, and not just a salve, I'd love to know what it is.
Hope this is not too tedious.

You know by now that phenomenology is essentially a reduction down to "pure", if you're Husserl or Fink or Henry or Marion (Heidegger didn't talk like this), phenomena. The grandfather of this kind of thinking is Kant, and in order to address your question about the girl and her plight, one should have to come to grips with how phenomenology works through Kant, the unqualified rationalist, meaning his ethics is a rationalist ethics, too, which I find frankly perversely wrong minded. But Kant illustrates the method of philosophizing.

Just a quick look: Kant wasn't interested in the way we usually think about the world, and your references to "available energy" and the "planet" are entirely off the table. One simply not thinking about facts. One asks the question, what is reason? and instead of looking historically what Plato said or Hume or Aristotle, though he obviously DID read all of these and was influenced, but his work is not an analysis of what they said, he wanted to find out the nature of reason itself, and for this, one has to look at the way it appears in actual rational judgments that are there as a kind of scientific data, Kant being the "scientist" committed to "observation" of what is discovered in analysis. ALready, it is clear that this will be an apriori study, not empirical, since judgment itself is not among objects in the world. So, how is it that I judge things and he famously draws on Aristotle's categories.

He ask questions like, given that I know a cup here and a cup there and everywhere I see a cup i judge it to be a cup, implicitly or otherwise, there must be something in the judgment that unifies these particulars that is unseen in the particulars, a principle of "cupness". Sounds almost like Plato, this form of cupness, and the connection is genuine. Plato's metaphysics is not far from Kant, roughly speaking, but Kant is far and away the superior scientist. Anyway, his arrives at the pure form of judgment itself. Now, it is the endeavor of recent analytic thinking to explain these categories of pure reason of his in Pragmatist terms (Rorty) or historical terms (Hegel, Heidegger) and Heidegger is probably right, but he is right because he saw that no matter what we say these forms are, our saying will always be an interpretation, and the actuality before us, the pure form in this case, will be only conditionally or contextually true (Derrida), but really this springs from Kant, who knew that we could not "speak" what pure forms were; they are transcendental, as Wittgenstein said in the Tractatus.

Kant was never refuted in the essential philosophy of transcendence. He was analyzed to death, and still is, for two centuries, but never essentially refuted. Because he cannot be. See Kant and the Foundations of Analytic Philosophy on this, by Robert Hanna, who also wrote The Fate of Analytic Philosophy, From Frege to the Ash Heap of Analytic Philosophy. To remove metaphysics form philosophy has been like removing air from lighter than air flying: goes nowhere .

To speak about the girl and the ethical ground of her situation, now. Note how Kant was not at all interested in what was outside of the object of his interest, just as any scientist would be. The geologist in not concerned with material physics or ceramic engineering. There has to be focus, which is what the term reduction is all about. Kant reduces the scope of inquiry, bracketing all that is irrelevant. So he is not going to talk about the incidentals of the my judgment that I am gaining weight or whatever. Just whatever makes reason what it is as evidenced in these actual affairs. Phenomenology works just like this, a suspending of things you don't want to know. Science works like this.

Instead of reason, let's look at value. I want to know what it is as it appears and only what is there in this very limited presence of the actual occasion of its existence. The sciences are grounded in empirical observation and may not leave this horizon possibilities. Here, it is value qua value, or, the phenomenon of value. Will there be "purity" discovered, as Kant found in reason? Importantly, note that Kant's analysis was a search for a pure abstraction, I mean, the pure form of an affirmative judgment is...what? There is nothing in the palpable experience of things that shows itself as reason. As massively interesting as the Critique is, all it can possible produce is the form existence/experience has. The content he calls sensory intuition. Period. Here, we look for value and this is anything but vacuous form. It is the girl's suffering, the cold at night, pangs of hunger. So we arrive at the first premise, if you will, of our argument, which is the palpable presence of value. One has to look at this the same way Kant looked and judgment.

Pain is inherently bad. A bold statement, because of philosophers like Mackie who are reductionists of the worst kind. See in his Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong how looks for ways to explain things like a lawyer looking for precedents: analytic philosophers look into the world of existing language possiblities ONLY. He goes after Moore's non natural property, in favor of an alternative complex definition of the Good. This moves immediately from the phenomenon itself, and onto a world of analogous ways the term is used.
Now, there is an analogous way to look at science, as in Thomas Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions that puts emphasis on the prevalence of paradigms that rule the direction of inquiry. One can't imagine Newton taking up inquiring into the Doppler shift in a light spectrum. But there is in science the most important assumption that what stands before one as the evidential bottom line is the Archimedean point of that stabilizes the world one does, and Mackie completely ignores this, which is why a say analytic philosophy knows a great deal about arguments, but very little about the world. They leave it to science to look at the world, and draw on their conclusions, ignoring the Kantian legacy, phenomenology, altogether. Philosophy thereby loses it metaphysics and becomes a handmaiden to a thesis that cannot even begin to think about the girl and the ethical issues she presents. There is a very good reason science doesn't talk about ehtics or aesthetics: one cannot see these as one sees an elephant or salinized h2o. One cannot see the badness of hunger and misery. And since analytic philosophers are let science do their observations for them, they also have nothing to say.

But value, generally speaking, the ooh's and ahh's and yums and ughs of our world, not only cannot be dismissed like this is, to be honst, stupidly done, fashion, it is the most salient feature of our existence. Fancy that! The one thing that lies at the very core of what our existence is all about, thrown into a closet as if it were nothing at all. Look at Mackie chasing "the Good' around in the complexities of what the word means in its relations to moral judgments here, and other entanglements there. It is a conceptual entanglement that has no regard for the very thing the inquiry is all about at the basic level: value-in-the-world. What is this?

First observe. Put a lighted match to you finger. Is the empirically descriptive "factuality" of the event exhaustive of the observational evidence? Is what is there before you accountable in terms of the way the term The Bad can be made sense of in ordinary terms? I think I tried to talk earlier about the contingent and non contingent Good, and Mackie touches on this, but his whole book is meant to deny the latter without even giving it an honest glace. I am talking about excruciating pain. Now we do, not the Kantian reduction, but the value-phenomenological reduction, and suspend everything but the pain qua pain, observe the phenomenon like a geologist observes quartz or a stratum of rock, not missing a speck. There is IN this the extraordinary presence of what we can only call "the Bad", an awkward locution, but who cares, language makes it awkward.

The Bad is transcendental. Wittgenstein wouldn't talk about it because it was too important. He calls divinity "the Good" in Culture and Value. Analytic philosophers cannot deal with Witt on this. Russell called him a mystic. Wittgenstein said goodbye.

The girl's horrible situation is now elevated to metaphysics, and the bad things she experiences are metaethical in nature. Couple this with my claim here about epistemology and ontology and you have a rough sketch of the essence of religion: Our world is, analysis reveals, a meta-world, and therefore the issue of this girl has its grounding in the very visible ethics here at hand in our affairs. And what do we see? Good is defined by this impossible gravity toward something tha tis metaphysically qualitatively defined. The definition is impossible, for it issues from the world itself: pure value, that being-in-the-pain of the occurrent event is not reducible. It cannot be reduced to anything else, Derrida's difference/deference applies to language, but this is not language, this suffering. Language is out the window, and yet the window is always there, which is language under erasure (Derrida).

There is, in this, something truly profound. Can't say what it is. The girl's world is not to be conceived as a particular under a general heading, a universal. She "exists" and this analysis is about the transcendental nature of her existence. The individual cannot be categorized.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
User avatar
By Sy Borg
#449685
Lagayscienza wrote: We are born to suffer (and perhaps experience some joy) and die, because that is what the universe has been able to produce out of the raw materials and the available energy on a planet like ours. I know that would be no comfort to a little girl scavenging on a garbage dump in a country of vast inequality. But I cannot think of any other answer. And if phenomenology, or religion, can give that little girl a truer answer, and not just a salve, I'd love to know what it is.
Hereandnow wrote: November 14th, 2023, 12:51 pmNote how Kant was not at all interested in what was outside of the object of his interest, just as any scientist would be. The geologist in not concerned with material physics or ceramic engineering. There has to be focus, which is what the term reduction is all about. Kant reduces the scope of inquiry, bracketing all that is irrelevant. So he is not going to talk about the incidentals of the my judgment that I am gaining weight or whatever. Just whatever makes reason what it is as evidenced in these actual affairs. Phenomenology works just like this, a suspending of things you don't want to know. Science works like this.
Hereandnow wrote: November 14th, 2023, 12:51 pm There is a very good reason science doesn't talk about ethics or aesthetics: one cannot see these as one sees an elephant or salinized h2o. One cannot see the badness of hunger and misery. And since analytic philosophers are let science do their observations for them, they also have nothing to say.
Why would you expect science to concern itself with ethics any more than Kant should have concerned himself with salinised H²O? As you said, focus is required.

Science doesn't speak about ethics for the same reason that ethicists don't talk about biochemistry.

Lagaya, as for a salve for the little girl, think of what acted as a salve for you as a child. Kindness. Connection. Sage advice. Distraction. Humour. It seems to me that phenomenology is about as well-equipped to help her as science because, like science, that's not its job.

Separate bodies of knowledge have built up since the 18-19th century splitting of natural philosophy.
... we need to reform philosophy and join it to science to recreate a modern version of natural philosophy; we need to do this in the interests of rigour, intellectual honesty, and so that science may serve the best interests of humanity. Modern science began as natural philosophy. In the time of Newton, what we call science and philosophy today – the disparate endeavours – formed one mutually interacting, integrated endeavour of natural philosophy: to improve our knowledge and understanding of the universe, and to improve our understanding of ourselves as a part of it. Profound discoveries were made, indeed one should say unprecedented discoveries. It was a time of quite astonishing intellectual excitement and achievement. And then natural philosophy died. It split into science on the one hand, and philosophy on the other. This happened during the 18th and 19th centuries, and the split is now built into our intellectual landscape. But the two fragments, science and philosophy, are defective shadows of the glorious unified endeavour of natural philosophy. Rigour, sheer intellectual good sense and decisive argument demand that we put the two together again, and rediscover the immense merits of the integrated enterprise of natural philosophy.
https://philarchive.org/rec/MAXIPO-4

I can imagine issues in marrying philosophy's ambition with scientific rigour, though.
User avatar
By Hereandnow
#449692
Count Lucanor wrote

This statement needs to be rephrased to become true: "Philosophy is not just about knowledge claims, and this is paramount: ontology and epistemology are essentially a unity within philosophy".
Please clarify.
This is disputable. The findings of science do have metaphysical and epistemological implications, even if that is not its primary incentive. Philosophy cannot be on its own without taking into account empirical sciences and science cannot do well without a philosophical foundation.
Interesting to consider. Science in the modern practice and conceptions, is mostly the interplay of quantitative values. The moon is a mass and its gravity, its brightness, its distances, the relation between it and the earth's tides, the pressure at its core due to its mas, and on and on; all of this exists in the mind of a scientist as quantitative values. If no quantification, would science even exist? One has to ask, is this really knowledge ABOUT the world? There are no quantifications over there in the trees and clouds. This is us, and then, the question turns to the structures of our mind that quantifies the world. But as units of quantified information valid only in certain contexts of their relevance, one is hard pressed to see how philosophy would have use for them, any more than it has use for taxidermy.
Acknowledging the existence of a "brain thing" means one cannot get around the fact that there's a thing that is not equivalent to its apprehension or the faculty that apprehends the thing. Even the most radical idealists must posit an internal/external distinction, a sort of objectiveness in the relation between the perceived reality (the known) and the knower within the purely sensorial domain, and so, applying the same criteria he uses against the realist, ends up joining the ranks of the philosophers in crisis, finding no justification for things (whatever their ontological nature may be) actually being "in there", and not just the way they seem. The epistemic crisis, if there's ever one, cannot discriminate, leaving no other option but epistemological nihilism, which is the end of philosophy and any science.
But what about the connectivity that makes possible the affirmation the "exterior" object? Without this, the exterior even as a concept become unintelligible. You seem to doubt there is an epistemological problem. That means you have finally discovered the nature of this epistemic connection. I would like to hear about this.

Not sure what a radical idealist is. I only ask how knowledge is possible. Cutting to the chase, it isn't, if any of the familiar sciences are going to determine how it works. One needs to move on, dealing only with the world as it presents itself, and in this world, I know there are things that transcend the reach of my thoughts apprehensions. The curiosity of Kant's synthetic apriority does not find its solution in confining empirical objects to subjectivity, for this is contradicted by the clear evidence before me.

Only one way to go: one has to reconceive the relation entirely, and the first thing to go is causality, for there is nothing epistemic about causality. Take any model you please, you will not even be able to imagine a delivery of the knowledge of this cup into my mind via causality.

This epistemic indeterminacy places our relation with the world in metaphysics. But this is not the metaphysics of some popular religion. This metaphysics is IN the affair before our eyes. It is a knowing that while I know this is a cup, the existential encounter at the most basic level of inquiry is impossible by any standard known to science and everyday living; the cup is now transcendent in a very meaningful way, for the metaphysical "distance" intrudes into the habits of perception and undoes them.
All I have done is to move from religion itself to society itself, since religion is the product of human subjects. To say that something is social, to say that it has a social dimension, is to say that it refers to human collectivity. It's a simple classificatory operation.
Of course, I have no issue with this move from one perspective to another. But what happens here is the reductive attempt to address religion solely in terms of a social analysis. Even if you go this way, social matters refer us to other matters closer to actualities. What is the need to construct or accept absurd religious narratives based on? Already we are out of the social analysis and into and existential one: the need is based on the insoluble nature of our suffering.
First, the epistemological foundation of all knowledge claims in idealist phenomenology is shaky. It cannot solve the epistemic problem it has brought upon itself, which is supposedly the first problem to solve, so the rest becomes a waste of time, as it cannot provide further insights on anything. Secondly, we can agree that religion is metaphysics, since it is all about what there really is. Its epistemic failure, the way I see it, comes from its naive naked-eye approach, as I explained earlier.
Shaky? Brought upon itself? No more than Einstein brought the special theory of relativity upon himself. I mean, you observe, think, see a problem, and proceed. How does does a world of things "transposition" themselves into a mind? Idealism didn't invent a problem. If it were merely invented, then refutation would be forthcoming. But as you can see, it is not. There is no way forward because the question throws our interface with the world into metaphysics.

It is not the the rest becomes a waste of time. I was clear about this: science remains what it is free of any philosophical encumbrances. Science is not metaphysics, so the twain do not meet. But it now has to be acknowledged that a metaphysics based on science is nonsense. One then has to move to phenomenology.
Any stance on realism is both an ontological and epistemological claim, you can't get around that. Once you have decided the so-called epistemic problem is solvable, which entails realism, there's no reason why science could not say a lot of things about religion. It already says a lot of things about our existence, so it's hard to guess what is that "radical indeterminacy" that you talk about.
But you can't say the epistemic problem is solvable. The indeterminacy is speak of is, in part, already before you. Observe an object and realize that the connectivity between you and the object that produces knowledge, an "aboutness" in the things you think and say about it, cannot be explained, and this deficit is not waiting for some simmering paradigm to yield an answer; rather, it is that such an answer cannot even be imagined within the knowledge claims of existing science. Speculation would have to move beyond this entirely, into some spiritual interconnectivity of all things, or the like. There are things to suggest this in quantum physics, but note: in order to pursue something like this, the essential data would issue from within the phenomenal field, for this is the critical polar reality from which such an idea would have to begin. Keep in mind that all one has ever and can ever affirm is phenomena. This is a matter of entailment: experience does not have an "outside" unless one can "stand" outside to affirm it. This is very close to what Wittgenstein said, and he was right. Unless you can second guess him.
I'm not so sure that suffering is not a social construct, at least not socially determined, although it depends on what we mean by "suffering". Is it my sadness because I missed my favorite band's concert? Or just the physical pain when I hit my knee with the corner of the table?
Some suffering is ambiguous. A bitter sweet sort of affair. Mental discomfort is often like this, the mixed feeling. This is really a rather critical point: To think at all is to think categorically, and so thinking about the world categorizes the world, you know, tree here, a cat over there. But the world itself doesn't have these categories. So when I talk about value, I am really, through langauge and its categorical divisions (universal quantifiers, in logic) announcing the presence of a value dimension of the world. Nor am I saying there is something called value in the world. Take away a thinking mentality from an environment of dogs and cats. you take away the "dogness" and the "catness", as weird as this sounds.

So ambiguity is just the messiness of the actual world. I choose unproblematic cases, like a lighted match to a finger, just for clarity.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
User avatar
By Hereandnow
#449693
Count Lucanor wrote

This statement needs to be rephrased to become true: "Philosophy is not just about knowledge claims, and this is paramount: ontology and epistemology are essentially a unity within philosophy".
Please clarify.
This is disputable. The findings of science do have metaphysical and epistemological implications, even if that is not its primary incentive. Philosophy cannot be on its own without taking into account empirical sciences and science cannot do well without a philosophical foundation.
Interesting to consider. Science in the modern practice and conceptions, is mostly the interplay of quantitative values. The moon is a mass and its gravity, its brightness, its distances, the relation between it and the earth's tides, the pressure at its core due to its mas, and on and on; all of this exists in the mind of a scientist as quantitative values. If no quantification, would science even exist? One has to ask, is this really knowledge ABOUT the world? There are no quantifications over there in the trees and clouds. This is us, and then, the question turns to the structures of our mind that quantifies the world. But as units of quantified information valid only in certain contexts of their relevance, one is hard pressed to see how philosophy would have use for them, any more than it has use for taxidermy.
Acknowledging the existence of a "brain thing" means one cannot get around the fact that there's a thing that is not equivalent to its apprehension or the faculty that apprehends the thing. Even the most radical idealists must posit an internal/external distinction, a sort of objectiveness in the relation between the perceived reality (the known) and the knower within the purely sensorial domain, and so, applying the same criteria he uses against the realist, ends up joining the ranks of the philosophers in crisis, finding no justification for things (whatever their ontological nature may be) actually being "in there", and not just the way they seem. The epistemic crisis, if there's ever one, cannot discriminate, leaving no other option but epistemological nihilism, which is the end of philosophy and any science.
But what about the connectivity that makes possible the affirmation the "exterior" object? Without this, the exterior even as a concept become unintelligible. You seem to doubt there is an epistemological problem. That means you have finally discovered the nature of this epistemic connection. I would like to hear about this.

Not sure what a radical idealist is. I only ask how knowledge is possible. Cutting to the chase, it isn't, if any of the familiar sciences are going to determine how it works. One needs to move on, dealing only with the world as it presents itself, and in this world, I know there are things that transcend the reach of my thoughts apprehensions. The curiosity of Kant's synthetic apriority does not find its solution in confining empirical objects to subjectivity, for this is contradicted by the clear evidence before me.

Only one way to go: one has to reconceive the relation entirely, and the first thing to go is causality, for there is nothing epistemic about causality. Take any model you please, you will not even be able to imagine a delivery of the knowledge of this cup into my mind via causality.

This epistemic indeterminacy places our relation with the world in metaphysics. But this is not the metaphysics of some popular religion. This metaphysics is IN the affair before our eyes. It is a knowing that while I know this is a cup, the existential encounter at the most basic level of inquiry is impossible by any standard known to science and everyday living; the cup is now transcendent in a very meaningful way, for the metaphysical "distance" intrudes into the habits of perception and undoes them.
All I have done is to move from religion itself to society itself, since religion is the product of human subjects. To say that something is social, to say that it has a social dimension, is to say that it refers to human collectivity. It's a simple classificatory operation.
Of course, I have no issue with this move from one perspective to another. But what happens here is the reductive attempt to address religion solely in terms of a social analysis. Even if you go this way, social matters refer us to other matters closer to actualities. What is the need to construct or accept absurd religious narratives based on? Already we are out of the social analysis and into and existential one: the need is based on the insoluble nature of our suffering.
First, the epistemological foundation of all knowledge claims in idealist phenomenology is shaky. It cannot solve the epistemic problem it has brought upon itself, which is supposedly the first problem to solve, so the rest becomes a waste of time, as it cannot provide further insights on anything. Secondly, we can agree that religion is metaphysics, since it is all about what there really is. Its epistemic failure, the way I see it, comes from its naive naked-eye approach, as I explained earlier.
Shaky? Brought upon itself? No more than Einstein brought the special theory of relativity upon himself. I mean, you observe, think, see a problem, and proceed. How does does a world of things "transposition" themselves into a mind? Idealism didn't invent a problem. If it were merely invented, then refutation would be forthcoming. But as you can see, it is not. There is no way forward because the question throws our interface with the world into metaphysics.

It is not the the rest becomes a waste of time. I was clear about this: science remains what it is free of any philosophical encumbrances. Science is not metaphysics, so the twain do not meet. But it now has to be acknowledged that a metaphysics based on science is nonsense. One then has to move to phenomenology.
Any stance on realism is both an ontological and epistemological claim, you can't get around that. Once you have decided the so-called epistemic problem is solvable, which entails realism, there's no reason why science could not say a lot of things about religion. It already says a lot of things about our existence, so it's hard to guess what is that "radical indeterminacy" that you talk about.
But you can't say the epistemic problem is solvable. The indeterminacy is speak of is, in part, already before you. Observe an object and realize that the connectivity between you and the object that produces knowledge, an "aboutness" in the things you think and say about it, cannot be explained, and this deficit is not waiting for some simmering paradigm to yield an answer; rather, it is that such an answer cannot even be imagined within the knowledge claims of existing science. Speculation would have to move beyond this entirely, into some spiritual interconnectivity of all things, or the like. There are things to suggest this in quantum physics, but note: in order to pursue something like this, the essential data would issue from within the phenomenal field, for this is the critical polar reality from which such an idea would have to begin. Keep in mind that all one has ever and can ever affirm is phenomena. This is a matter of entailment: experience does not have an "outside" unless one can "stand" outside to affirm it. This is very close to what Wittgenstein said, and he was right. Unless you can second guess him.
I'm not so sure that suffering is not a social construct, at least not socially determined, although it depends on what we mean by "suffering". Is it my sadness because I missed my favorite band's concert? Or just the physical pain when I hit my knee with the corner of the table?
Some suffering is ambiguous. A bitter sweet sort of affair. Mental discomfort is often like this, the mixed feeling. This is really a rather critical point: To think at all is to think categorically, and so thinking about the world categorizes the world, you know, tree here, a cat over there. But the world itself doesn't have these categories. So when I talk about value, I am really, through langauge and its categorical divisions (universal quantifiers, in logic) announcing the presence of a value dimension of the world. Nor am I saying there is something called value in the world. Take away a thinking mentality from an environment of dogs and cats. you take away the "dogness" and the "catness", as weird as this sounds.

So ambiguity is just the messiness of the actual world. I choose unproblematic cases, like a lighted match to a finger, just for clarity.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
User avatar
By Count Lucanor
#449698
Sy Borg wrote: November 14th, 2023, 12:32 am
Count Lucanor wrote: November 13th, 2023, 8:24 pm
Sy Borg wrote: November 13th, 2023, 5:34 pm That point is basically that mind comes before matter.

Let's consider it. Obviously this would not be anything like an animal/human mind. Still, it's possible in the extraordinary complexity of the Earth and the universe generally, that there may be types of consciousnesses around that we can't yet detect. For instance, if we lived within a conscious system/s, how could we know? Would there be tell-tale signs? Or would the inside view seem the same whether a containing system was conscious or not?
Again, that's not the point antirealism has been trying to make. To the question: "does anything exist independently of our consciousness?" the antirealist answers: "no, nothing else exists" or "we can never know anything else exists". Another version is: "they do exist, but we can never know exactly how they are, because how they appear to us is caused by ourselves and not by the things in themselves".
Then I'll have to keep on fishing until I get a catch :)

The first stance you mention is straight solipsism and the second stance is suggestive of solipsism. I think solipsism is not quite coherent. There's too much going on that can be explained by the laws of physics, although if we existed within a larger consciousness we'd probably not be able to tell. One might look for anomalies, but one can never be certain of the causes of anomalies. Generally, the explanations tend to be prosaic.

The third notion would seem to be the standard epistemological issue that Kant raised - phenomena v noumena. Yes, we'll never know what it's like to be a bat. We will never even quite understand the "rockness" of rocks, always engaging at a distance. Even so, being within rather than observing from the outside doesn't seem much help either. Some people are better understood by outsiders than by themselves.

To fully understand any entity, one would seemingly need to observe it from both within (as the entity) and outside (not the entity) simultaneously over an extended period, which does not appear to be a feature of human/animal consciousness a this stage.
Yes, the trap of solipsism is one of the most common arguments against phenomenological idealism. It was what Kant tried to avoid, but couldn't really pull it off. The point of all of them is not that you cannot know how the first-hand experience of a bat is, in fact one of the contradictions of antirealists is that they claim to have knowledge of how the first-hand experience of other subjects really is, but still the experience of perceiving a bat will not tell you how the bat really is from an outside perspective. It occupies space and moves (implying time), but those attributes are supposedly added by you, they are not in the world outside of you.
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
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Neither Safe Nor Effective

Neither Safe Nor Effective
by Dr. Colleen Huber
May 2024

Now or Never

Now or Never
by Mary Wasche
April 2024

Meditations

Meditations
by Marcus Aurelius
March 2024

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

The In-Between: Life in the Micro

The In-Between: Life in the Micro
by Christian Espinosa
January 2024

2023 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021


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