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Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

Humans-Only Club for Discussion & Debate

A one-of-a-kind oasis of intelligent, in-depth, productive, civil debate.

Topics are uncensored, meaning even extremely controversial viewpoints can be presented and argued for, but our Forum Rules strictly require all posters to stay on-topic and never engage in ad hominems or personal attacks.


Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
#449156
Lagayscienza wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 10:57 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 3:44 pm Despite several digressions, there is not doubt that spirituality is not the preserve of Theism.
One has to wonder what relavance Theism has to spirituality at all?
And the extreme expression of spirituality, namely spiritualism is frankly anathema to Theism, and attracts from the church much scorn.
Yes, spiritually, theism seems to be hopelessly weighed down and disabled by centuries and millennia of accreted doctrine and dogma. Theism's doctrine and dogma are the bricks and mortar used to build power structures in which to confine and control people’s minds and, in return for submission, it promises them the impossible.
Yes promises the impossible and delivers servitude. The puzzling thing is how easily people appear to have submitted.
Yet a closer view at history shows that many risked the threat of eternal damnation to challenge the tale that they were told. Many paid the highest price.
Some changed the readin of scriptures to free themselves, (reformation) only to mimic the strategies of their oppressors by the new establishment of protestantism.
#449159
Sculptor1 wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 4:37 pm
Gee wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 2:01 pmAwareness, feeling, and emotion are big time players in the game of life, but you don't find science stating that. They are all about thought and the brain and maybe AI. Awareness, feeling, and emotion do not require a brain. This is why I stated that science pretty much ignores emotion. They seem to forget that we can not think ourselves conscious, we feel ourselves conscious.
You could not be more wrong.
The sciences of psychology, neurology and psychiatry are all concerned with such things. One could argue that with the excption of neurology that are wholly concerned with such things. Science does not ignore emotion and probabl has more and meaningful things to say about it - things that you can trust as being verifyable - than any other discipline. Perhaps you have a suggestion for an area of serious study that has more to say about those characteristics of the human experience?
Mansplaining? I think that what Gee is pointing to is the experience of awareness, feeling, and emotion, which you can’t put under a microscope, and relating our experiences depends on our ability to express ourselves, and even then, we can’t give our experience to others. Feeling and emotion are also bodily experiences, and some say awareness is too, which is interpreted by our language centre into something graspable, but probably only good poets can cause the same kind of sensation in others. So the brain is employed in naming and categorising sensations that are immediate and sometimes fierce, but the experiences themselves are a bodily awareness.
Sculptor1 wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 4:37 pm All of these things do in fact require a brain. There is no life without a brain and all evidence points to this as the primary organ for all conscious experience, though the heart and digestive tract also play a minor role in this process. Hormones play a significant role as to neurotransmitters - all because of receptors in the brain where they act to alter "Awareness, feeling, and emotion".
ALL examples, without excption of "Awareness, feeling, and emotion." are found in step with a worling brain, and the cessation of the healthy activity of the brain always lead to disruptions of "Awareness, feeling, and emotion". Brain damage leads to changes in feeling and emotion, and can tragically change your awareness; drugs that are shown to act on the brain also support this line of reasoning.
In a fascinating book called Entangled Life: How Fungi Make Our Worlds, Change Our Minds and Shape Our Futures, Merlin Sheldrake showed how sensation can take place even when there is no brain:
For an animal to experience a smell, a molecule must land on their olfactory epithelium. In humans, this is a membrane up and behind the nose. The molecule binds to a receptor, and nerves fire. The brain gets involved as chemicals are identified, or trigger thoughts and emotional responses. Fungi are equipped with different kinds of bodies. They don’t have noses or brains. Instead, their entire surface behaves like an olfactory epithelium. A mycelial network is one large chemically sensitive membrane: a molecule can bind to a receptor anywhere on its surface and trigger a signalling cascade that alters fungal behaviour.
Sheldrake, Merlin (2020-09-02T23:58:59.000). Entangled Life: How Fungi Make Our Worlds, Change Our Minds and Shape Our Futures. Random House. Kindle Edition.
So, we may have to think again when assuming that intelligence needs brains.
Favorite Philosopher: Alan Watts Location: Germany
#449160
Stoppelmann wrote: November 4th, 2023, 5:19 am
Sculptor1 wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 4:37 pm
Gee wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 2:01 pmAwareness, feeling, and emotion are big time players in the game of life, but you don't find science stating that. They are all about thought and the brain and maybe AI. Awareness, feeling, and emotion do not require a brain. This is why I stated that science pretty much ignores emotion. They seem to forget that we can not think ourselves conscious, we feel ourselves conscious.
You could not be more wrong.
The sciences of psychology, neurology and psychiatry are all concerned with such things. One could argue that with the excption of neurology that are wholly concerned with such things. Science does not ignore emotion and probabl has more and meaningful things to say about it - things that you can trust as being verifyable - than any other discipline. Perhaps you have a suggestion for an area of serious study that has more to say about those characteristics of the human experience?
Mansplaining? I think that what Gee is pointing to is the experience of awareness, feeling, and emotion, which you can’t put under a microscope, and relating our experiences depends on our ability to express ourselves, and even then, we can’t give our experience to others. Feeling and emotion are also bodily experiences, and some say awareness is too, which is interpreted by our language centre into something graspable, but probably only good poets can cause the same kind of sensation in others. So the brain is employed in naming and categorising sensations that are immediate and sometimes fierce, but the experiences themselves are a bodily awareness.
Sculptor1 wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 4:37 pm All of these things do in fact require a brain. There is no life without a brain and all evidence points to this as the primary organ for all conscious experience, though the heart and digestive tract also play a minor role in this process. Hormones play a significant role as to neurotransmitters - all because of receptors in the brain where they act to alter "Awareness, feeling, and emotion".
ALL examples, without excption of "Awareness, feeling, and emotion." are found in step with a worling brain, and the cessation of the healthy activity of the brain always lead to disruptions of "Awareness, feeling, and emotion". Brain damage leads to changes in feeling and emotion, and can tragically change your awareness; drugs that are shown to act on the brain also support this line of reasoning.
In a fascinating book called Entangled Life: How Fungi Make Our Worlds, Change Our Minds and Shape Our Futures, Merlin Sheldrake showed how sensation can take place even when there is no brain:
For an animal to experience a smell, a molecule must land on their olfactory epithelium. In humans, this is a membrane up and behind the nose. The molecule binds to a receptor, and nerves fire. The brain gets involved as chemicals are identified, or trigger thoughts and emotional responses. Fungi are equipped with different kinds of bodies. They don’t have noses or brains. Instead, their entire surface behaves like an olfactory epithelium. A mycelial network is one large chemically sensitive membrane: a molecule can bind to a receptor anywhere on its surface and trigger a signalling cascade that alters fungal behaviour.
Sheldrake, Merlin (2020-09-02T23:58:59.000). Entangled Life: How Fungi Make Our Worlds, Change Our Minds and Shape Our Futures. Random House. Kindle Edition.
So, we may have to think again when assuming that intelligence needs brains.
Nothing you are saying here refutes one thing I said.
No one is talking about an anbstract concept of intelligence.
The matter at hand is "Awareness, feeling, and emotion".
#449161
chewybrian wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 8:44 pm
Sy Borg wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 3:35 pm
FrankSophia wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 10:10 am
Lagayscienza wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 9:53 am I don't think I "have a clue about" all this. And it is not clear to me that anyone else does, either.
It's why I'm already on my way out.

Once I stop getting notifications I will not come back.
Yet another who found God and is so clearly filled with love, patience, goodwill and and sense of kinship with his fellow humans ...

No rhetoric is needed to undermine Frank's claims, because his behaviour makes clear that his "spirituality" is superficial.

Now consider, why would anyone want to be "spiritual"? To find peace. To be a better person. To be more in touch with a deeper reality. So if a "spiritualist" is spitting bile and treating non-believers like garbage, what does that tell you about the person's "spirituality"?
Sometimes I wish we had a "like" button here. Someone claims to be a sage. How could I tell if they are correct? A sage must be wise, a wise man must be humble, and a humble man would be kind. If someone is neither kind nor humble, then they must not be wise. The fact that someone claims to be a sage is sufficient cause to say they are not, and if they say it with contempt for others, then the evidence is overwhelming.
A Like button would work for me, not as a popularity count but a simple means of expression.

I think that a profoundly moving experience of oneness would make a person appreciate that all parts are worthy of respect. Not just people, but all entities. We're all in it together and, whether we are graceful about it or not, we will play our part, one way or another.

Not saying that I've internalised this kind of wisdom personally, because I get as grumpy at annoyances as anyone else but you'd expect someone who has worked things out to be, as you say, more humble and wise in their dealings.


chewybrian wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 8:44 pm
Sy Borg wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 3:35 pm I remember going to yoga classes and there'd always be some over-serious types who clearly saw themselves as on the road to enlightenment. Yeah, they were snobbish. In many religious practices there are various attainments, points that one reaches in one's explorations. A common trap at this stage is ego. Often modest mental achievements can lead a believer/meditator into pride, and at that point growth largely stops.

Ego is ultimately a form of armour, a defence against the Earth's non-stop attempts to reabsorb your body. If we wish to experience subtleties, we cannot have our armour on.
I don't think I've had the kind of experiences you seem to have had. However, I think that I did not begin to really live until I accepted that I will die, with no denial and no attempt to put the thought out of my mind. Accepting your own mortality need not be depressing, and it had the opposite effect for me. It's actually much harder trying to jam reality into the box of your model than it is to accept and deal with what presents as best you can.
My two peak experiences are no more important than any other experience that has been and gone. Not sure that having those experiences means I know anything that you don't, with all due respect for Mary's room. Such isolated experiences are ultimately matter no more than any powerful experience. In fact, its a bit lame that the greatest experiences of my life were private brain explosions rather than fabulous experiences in the world.

I find that mortality is easier to accept with age. A person who dies as a child, teen or young adult has dealt a dud hand by the game of life - all those unfulfilled potentials stripped away. Once your greatest potentials are behind you, it's easier to be philosophical about moving aside for the next generation.

chewybrian wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 8:44 pm The universe does not require that you fear things out of your control. This is something I was taught, intentionally or not, and had to work hard to overcome. Perhaps friends and family taught me their fears with the best intentions. However, I suspect that many political and religious leaders or would-be leaders simply use the fear as a means to gain control over people. Either way, it was a long journey back to where I might have been years earlier if I had simply been presented with the truth up front.
To live is to be damaged. Caregivers make mistakes. Societies are invariably neurotic and they liberally share their collective neuroses around. It is sobering to realise that almost everything you once thought was true, actually wasn't.
#449167
Hereandnow wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 3:06 pm
Lagayscienza wrote

Thank you, hereandnow. This is a really intersecting post. I want to read it more carefully. At first glance, though, it seems I need to read more Kant, Kierkegaard and Wittgenstein and some Husserl because whereof I cannot speak, thereof I must remain silent. Heidegger I won't read more of. To me he's just incomprehensible - his writing sounds like nonsense to me. But that may be just an indication of my own limitations.
No, no. I am thanking you! For not being all bah humbug. The reason Heidegger seems so remote is that he is embedded in a tradition that starts with Kant. Can't read Heidegger without Husserl, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Hegel, Kant. I was pi**ed when I discovered this. Then I read Rorty's Irony, Contingency and Solidarity. Had to understand what he was talking about when he said truth is not discovered, but made, through his reading of Heidegger and Derrida. But Kant came first.
Cheers! 8)
Thanks, Hereandnow. I understand, I think, what Rorty says about the contingency of language and about contingency more generally. I can see how his ideas sit well with the Continental philosophy of Derrida et al. I have difficulty with it. Therefore, I will never be an ironist in Rorty’s terms. Certainly, we need to be aware of context and that some deconstruction may be necessary, but I think too much has been made of this. What we see as being true can, of course, be coloured by our own experiences and our individual points of view, but I don’t agree that truth is only made and not discovered. It’s hard to see how that idea can lead anywhere useful. For Derrida there is no such this as meaning. But I don’t think that his obfuscation can be philosophically grounded. If we go down that route it’s hard to see how we might arrive at an understand anything. And yet, we clearly do have an understanding of some things. I gravitate more towards an analytic and scientific mode of inquiry. Science can give us an idea, albeit imperfect, about what is real and true.

All this is not to say that other ways of broadening and raising consciousness such as mediation are useless. Science is certainly not the be all and end all of life. But it's a powerful tool for understanding the universe. And understanding the universe is what, to me, is most interesting and why I have subscriptions to scientific journals like Nature. The universe revealed by science is endlessly fascinating.

I suppose, as you say, I would need to go back to Kant, read some Husserl and Hegel, and revisit Kierkegaard and Nietzsche to help me understand Heidegger and so read myself out of my current world view. But we only get one reading life and there is much to fit in.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
#449177
Sy Borg wrote
Yet another who found God and is so clearly filled with love, patience, goodwill and and sense of kinship with his fellow humans ...

No rhetoric is needed to undermine Frank's claims, because his behaviour makes clear that his "spirituality" is superficial.
If superficiality is the problem, then what is it that is not superficial, authentic. Certainly has to do with not being a a terrible dick about our people's well being, but this can't what spirituality is about, just being decent to others. I mean, there are lots of those who are both not spiritual at all and very good to others. Behavior certainly doesn't have power to reveal spirituality.

Then what is spirituality really about, in your view?
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
#449181
chewybrian wrote: November 1st, 2023, 2:36 pm
Gee wrote: November 1st, 2023, 1:13 pm My theory is that the brain makes us aware of these things in much the same way my TV antennae makes us aware of TV shows.
Lagayscienza wrote: November 1st, 2023, 11:00 am It studies disease - mental illnesses which are overwhelmingly about emotional stability/instability that so seriously affect peoples' lives.
Yes. A bad antennae can make a mess of a TV show...Gee
I like the antenna idea, and it brings to mind Aldous Huxley. He said that we were all able to see everything around us at any given time, but it wouldn't make sense to us if we did. This was a little like his experiences on drugs, and it would be like the antenna giving us all the channels at the same time. Instead, we learn and are taught to filter out the noise and jam our experiences into models so that we can categorize and understand them and act quickly in sync with our goals. He says that this is one of the great attributes of man, and also one of his great failings.
This is really interesting. I will have to learn more about Huxley and assume that he is/was brilliant, but also wonder if he studied psychology. My understanding is that the "antenna", or brain, is what moves information from the unconscious to the conscious aspect of mind, making it digital, logical, and useful. The unconscious is analogue, not digital, so it is difficult to study or know any specific thing. I can see where drugs could help reenact that experience, but I don't think that I will try that approach. :D
chewybrian wrote: November 1st, 2023, 2:36 pm
The suggestion is that the function of the brain and nervous system and sense organs is in the main
eliminative and not productive. Each person is at each moment capable of remembering all that has ever
happened to him and of perceiving everything that is happening everywhere in the universe. The function
of the brain and nervous system is to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of
largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, by shutting out most of what we should otherwise perceive or
remember at any moment, and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be
practically useful...

Every individual is at once the beneficiary and the victim of the linguistic tradition into which
he has been born - the beneficiary inasmuch as language gives access to the accumulated records of
other people's experience, the victim in so far as it confirms him in the belief that reduced awareness is
the only awareness and as it bedevils his sense of reality, so that he is all too apt to take his concepts for
data, his words for actual things.
That which, in the language of religion, is called "this world" is the
universe of reduced awareness, expressed, and, as it were, petrified by language. The various "other
worlds," with which human beings erratically make contact are so many elements in the totality of the
awareness belonging to Mind at Large. Most people, most of the time, know only what comes through
the reducing valve and is consecrated as genuinely real by the local language. Certain persons, however,
seem to be born with a kind of by-pass that circumvents the reducing valve. In others temporary
bypasses may be acquired either spontaneously, or as the result of deliberate "spiritual exercises," or
through hypnosis, or by means of drugs. Through these permanent or temporary by-passes there flows,
not indeed the perception "of everything that is happening everywhere in the universe" (for the by-pass
does not abolish the reducing valve, which still excludes the total content of Mind at Large), but
something more than, and above ah something different from, the carefully selected utilitarian material
which our narrowed, individual minds regard as a complete, or at least sufficient, picture of reality. Huxley, "The Doors of Perception"
I am going to love this book! Thank you for telling me about it.

Gee
Location: Michigan, US
#449182
Hereandnow wrote: November 3rd, 2023, 4:00 pm
Gee wrote
Awareness, feeling, and emotion are big time players in the game of life, but you don't find science stating that. They are all about thought and the brain and maybe AI. Awareness, feeling, and emotion do not require a brain. This is why I stated that science pretty much ignores emotion. They seem to forget that we can not think ourselves conscious, we feel ourselves conscious.
Noticed your post and had a couple of thoughts. If I am intruding, just ignore.

Just this one idea: Science cannot talk about ethics or aesthetics because these entail value, and value cannot be observed. Sure, ethical situations can be described, but this mysterious good and bad possesses something ordinary (Moore called it a non natural property) facts do not. For me, I imagine taking my hand and putting in boiling water for a few seconds and then studying the phenomenon as a scientist might, with all eyes on the evidence before me. Here is the idea: after an exhaustive accounting for all the facts, I find there is something left over, a superfluity that transcends the facts, and this is value, the "bad" of the affair, the pain. Why is pain bad? Show me the badness of the pain. Make it observable so science can witness it. Its being bad is there, in the presence of the experience, and it is not reducible to any paradigm of explanation.

There is a more formal way to put this, but I like the rather down and dirty simplicity of this radical example of horrible suffering. Many things I can see and quantify and compare, but badness qua badness is not among them. It has a very mysterious presence that science cannot reckon with, so therefore ignores and treats it as if it didn't exist, reducing the horrible pain to the status of a shoe lace being untied, a simple fact.

Value-in-the-world is nonsense as a term, says Wittgenstein, because it IS the world, that is, it is a concept of pure presence entirely outside categorical designation. It is a fascinating thing to analyze, this good IN my love of Hagen Dazs, this bad IN my scorched hand. I look closely, examine all that is there, the injured flesh, the ruptured arteries, the taboo on doing this, and everything else, but the "bad" is nowhere to be found.

And yet, this bad is unquestionably the most salient feature of the whole affair. Value is the most salient feature of our existence. Yet science cannot touch it.
An intelligent response is never an intrusion. You make some good points.

I have known for some time that the word spiritual is actually an interpretation for feeling and emotion, but if the word, value, was used instead, then it would remove the religious connotations. I think an atheist, who likes to meditate, could explain that he values the exercises and experience, rather than he feels a spiritual connection. What do you think?

But I should clarify that I do not have a problem with science. I respect science and am frequently amazed by it, but do not see it as the beginning and end of knowledge that some people do. Like everything else, science is limited by its strengths, but it is only one of the disciplines. We also have philosophy and religion to give us knowledge and answer questions.

Gee
Location: Michigan, US
#449184
Hereandnow wrote: November 4th, 2023, 11:25 am
Sy Borg wrote
Yet another who found God and is so clearly filled with love, patience, goodwill and and sense of kinship with his fellow humans ...

No rhetoric is needed to undermine Frank's claims, because his behaviour makes clear that his "spirituality" is superficial.
If superficiality is the problem, then what is it that is not superficial, authentic. Certainly has to do with not being a a terrible dick about our people's well being, but this can't what spirituality is about, just being decent to others. I mean, there are lots of those who are both not spiritual at all and very good to others. Behavior certainly doesn't have power to reveal spirituality.

Then what is spirituality really about, in your view?
It's not just about authenticity. The dog lying on my lap as I type is always authentic.

It would be just as simplistic, as you suggest, to think that spirituality is nothing more than kindness. However, I'd see kindness and understanding as inevitable products of spiritual attainment. Its lack says much about a person.

Good that you challenged the idea of what qualities we might expect in one who has done serious spiritual work. I would think that maturity is one defining feature. Measured. Proportionate. Reasonable, but no pushover. Capable of self control.

I expect there could be a range of ideas on what can be expected from one who has done much serious and effective spiritual work.
#449189
Gee wrote
Awareness, feeling, and emotion are big time players in the game of life, but you don't find science stating that. They are all about thought and the brain and maybe AI. Awareness, feeling, and emotion do not require a brain. This is why I stated that science pretty much ignores emotion. They seem to forget that we can not think ourselves conscious, we feel ourselves conscious.[/quote
[mention}Gee[/mention}, I don’t understand how can be so and I'm hoping you will explain. How can “Awareness, feeling, and emotion … not require a brain”? Try being aware of anything, or feeling anything without your brain and tell me if it works. If we are under general anaesthetic, the brain is partly shut down and consciousness, awareness, feeling etc all disappear. I know this is true because I’ve had general anaesthetic several times. There is just nothing. So I just don’t understand your reasoning here. Like you, I don't think we can "think ourselves conscious" or "feel ourselves conscious". Either our brain is functioning at a level sufficient for consciousness or it's not.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
#449190
* I don't underhand how that...

And I don’t understand the idea that the brain is some sort of antenna that tunes into consciousness. What is producing the consciousness that the brain tunes into? It’s an interesting concept, but is there any evidence for it?
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
#449191
Gee wrote: November 4th, 2023, 1:15 pm
chewybrian wrote: November 1st, 2023, 2:36 pm Huxley, "The Doors of Perception"


I am going to love this book! Thank you for telling me about it.

Gee
Several things I would like to add about one of my favorites, as a speaker, author and philosopher, since you showed some interest...

You can find the book online for free. Just search "pdf Huxley Doors of Perception" and you'll find it on a web page and you can print it up if you prefer.

He also wrote, "A Brave New World", which you may know. This is something of a counterpoint to "1984", by George Orwell, who was a student of Huxley. While Orwell warns us of the horrors of totalitarianism, Huxley warns of a different method of control.
“There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution”― Aldous Huxley
Also, there are many videos on YouTube of Huxley's speeches and university classes. They are very much worth the time, I would say.
Interestingly, I think, he comes by his quest for knowledge quite honestly. Here is a quote from Huxley's granfather, a leading anthropologist, supporter of Darwin and the one who coined the term "agnostic":
Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle... the fundamental axiom of modern science... In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration... In matters of the intellect, do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable., Thomas Henry Huxley
I love Aldous Huxley's use of English in his speaking and writing. He is both painstakingly clear and eloquent. He is, to my eyes and ears, both very wise and very humble, which are qualities that should go together like peanut butter and jelly. I'll just nod off with one of my favorite quotes from him which seems to prove the point:
“It's a little embarrassing that after 45 years of research & study, the best advice I can give people is to be a little kinder to each other.”
― Aldous Huxley
Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus Location: Florida man
#449193
Lagayscienza wrote: November 4th, 2023, 7:24 pm
Gee wrote
Awareness, feeling, and emotion are big time players in the game of life, but you don't find science stating that. They are all about thought and the brain and maybe AI. Awareness, feeling, and emotion do not require a brain. This is why I stated that science pretty much ignores emotion. They seem to forget that we can not think ourselves conscious, we feel ourselves conscious.[/quote
[mention}Gee[/mention], I don’t understand how that can be so and I'm hoping you will explain. How can “Awareness, feeling, and emotion … not require a brain”? Try being aware of anything, or feeling anything without your brain and tell me if it works. If we are under general anaesthetic, the brain is partly shut down and consciousness, awareness, feeling etc all disappear. I know this is true because I’ve had general anaesthetic several times. There is just nothing. So I just don’t understand your reasoning here. Like you, I don't think we can "think ourselves conscious" or "feel ourselves conscious". Either our brain is functioning at a level sufficient for consciousness or it's not.
And I don’t understand the idea that the brain is some sort of antenna that tuned into consciousness. What is producing the consciousness that the brain tunes into? It’s an interesting concept, but is there any evidence for it?

Neuroscientist Steven Novella at neurologica, in a conclusion to his argument that the brain-as-antenna hypotheses is untenable puts it like this

The brain-as-receiver hypothesis is nothing more than a convenient way for dualists to dismiss evidence for the correlation between brain function and mental function. The hypothesis, however, is dependent upon a gross misunderstanding of the state of our knowledge about brain function, and the intimate connection that has been documented in countless ways between brain function and mental function.

The simplest explanation for the tight correlation between brain and mental function is that the mind is what the brain does. There is no more reason to hypothesize a mind separate from brain than there is to hypothesize that there is a computer fairy that performs all the necessary calculations and then feeds the results to specific circuits in your computer.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
#449194
If it is true that consciousness is produced by the brain as a result of neurological processes, then the benefits one gets from meditation must also be a result of what’s happening in the brain. It would have nothing to do with the tuning into some posited supernatural realm or some universal consciousness. And if this is so, I’m not sure how I could call myself a "spiritual atheist". I’d be just an atheist who practices meditation. But I’m ok with that. I don’t require more. And it's not clear to me why anyone else requires more either. Can anyone explain this to me.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
#449196
Lagayscienza wrote

Thanks, Hereandnow. I understand, I think, what Rorty says about the contingency of language and about contingency more generally. I can see how his ideas sit well with the Continental philosophy of Derrida et al. I have difficulty with it. Therefore, I will never be an ironist in Rorty’s terms. Certainly, we need to be aware of context and that some deconstruction may be necessary, but I think too much has been made of this. What we see as being true can, of course, be coloured by our own experiences and our individual points of view, but I don’t agree that truth is only made and not discovered. It’s hard to see how that idea can lead anywhere useful. For Derrida there is no such this as meaning. But I don’t think that his obfuscation can be philosophically grounded. If we go down that route it’s hard to see how we might arrive at an understand anything. And yet, we clearly do have an understanding of some things. I gravitate more towards an analytic and scientific mode of inquiry. Science can give us an idea, albeit imperfect, about what is real and true.

All this is not to say that other ways of broadening and raising consciousness such as mediation are useless. Science is certainly not the be all and end all of life. But it's a powerful tool for understanding the universe. And understanding the universe is what, to me, is most interesting and why I have subscriptions to scientific journals like Nature. The universe revealed by science is endlessly fascinating.

I suppose, as you say, I would need to go back to Kant, read some Husserl and Hegel, and revisit Kierkegaard and Nietzsche to help me understand Heidegger and so read myself out of my current world view. But we only get one reading life and there is much to fit in.
Science, if I may, does not deal with the world qualitatively, only quantitatively. And it doesn't deal with basic questions. This isn't its job, to think about epistemology and ontology and ethics and aesthetics. It is a "first order" of thinking, you could say. Philosophy deals with the presuppositions of this.

There is another way to think about Derrida, and this comes from John Caputo, who wrote the very helpful Radical Hermeneutics. He also wrote The Prayers and Tears of Jacques Derrida which begins with an inscription by Eckhart: I pray God to rid me of God!

Then there is Derrida's Metaphysics of Violence in which he dicusses Levinas, and Levinas' principle point is, for me, the difficult and most enigmatic thing there is in this thinking. Caputo's Derrida treats deconstruction like apophatic theology: it is not that language is merely suspect, but is altogether different from the impossible world that is wholly Other than language. This "tout autre" is the impossible reference; it is what Wittgenstein wouldn't talk about, because it can't be talked about but this crisis in understanding is powerful, if one, you know, follows through on this kind of thing, loses sleep over the ineffability of our existence. Caputo is a good read, but a bit verbose. And he really doesn't nail this down, as I see it. But Michel Henry gets it. I think of Ahab in Melville's Moby Dick, who, whenb addressing Starbuck's concerns makes his outrage clear: it is not the whale, but is behind the whale, the Godly source from which issues forth all that is, and this includes the misery he had to endure, losing his leg to the whale (important to notw that Ahab was a scholarly man, who could philoosphize about the world, for it is not world seen that offends; it is the unseen foundation of existence that is truly responsible, and Ahab's quest is not just Ahab's, but belongs to all of us born to suffer and die. The point is that there are two ways to understand the world. One sees a leg devouring whale, and the other? Here is Henry talking about fear:

The discovery of fear is inauthentic...... By this we must understand that
fear guards against a being which it fears and not against its origin,
namely, against the world as such; in fact, it hides from this, from the
origin of all fears behind a being which it attends to


"A being which it fears," like a lion or a disease. This has Ahab all over it. All of our affectivities, the hate, rage, love, bliss, and our sufferings, and on and on; these issue from the wholly other, metaphysics. It is "behind" the white whale's evil (not that whales can be evil), the transcendental source of everything . This is not the world of physics, but the world of phenomenology, so causal accounts are out the window. What IS is the presence of the world.

Anyway, Derrida's philosophy is received with such resentment by analytic philosophers simply because they don't read continental philosophy and work through this radical ontology. Obviously I myself don't understand this with clarity because no one does. But this is because the world itself is foundationally indeterminate. Derrida makes this very clear. But he stands on Husserl's shoulders, and Husserl comes first, he and his infamous epoche that, formally speaking, causes all the trouble.
Favorite Philosopher: the moon and the stars
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