Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[heracleitos]

What are your opinions about the practices that are generations old, and what we still practice today without any critical questioning about their validity?

Even though we do have a few more formal knowledge-justification methods that are occasionally useful, the default fallback method remains trial and error.

Furthermore, we can safely assume that quite a bit of trial and error went into developing traditional practices:

Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up.

Especially in the realm of human behavior, we know that nothing is provable (math) and very, very little is testable (science). Therefore, everything we truly know about it, is the result of endless trial and error.

In fact, modern western society is quite presumptuous and even outright ridiculous to believe that it can add value, on the fly, in knowledge domains that are necessarily governed by trial and error.

Even worse, the often imbecile beliefs of modern western society even liberally carry over to taking down fences in science. It has now even become a society that does not need to test its vaccines, because hey, vaccines do not need to be tested!

[Sushan]

What are your opinions about the practices that are generations old, and what we still practice today without any critical questioning about their validity?

Even though we do have a few more formal knowledge-justification methods that are occasionally useful, the default fallback method remains trial and error.

Furthermore, we can safely assume that quite a bit of trial and error went into developing traditional practices:

Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up.

Especially in the realm of human behavior, we know that nothing is provable (math) and very, very little is testable (science). Therefore, everything we truly know about it, is the result of endless trial and error.

In fact, modern western society is quite presumptuous and even outright ridiculous to believe that it can add value, on the fly, in knowledge domains that are necessarily governed by trial and error.

Even worse, the often imbecile beliefs of modern western society even liberally carry over to taking down fences in science. It has now even become a society that does not need to test its vaccines, because hey, vaccines do not need to be tested!

You have a point. Sometimes we simply believe modern things, just because they are modern, but ridicule ancient practices claiming that they do not have any scientific value. Yes, they may had a value those days which we still cannot understand. So it is good to study them without simply rejecting or ridiculing them. And also we must be open minded to reject as well as accept such ancient practices. Taking either side won't help the human evolution or scientific development, and all endeavors should be aimed at human advancement.

[Kaitlyn Wadsworth]

My thought on this topic is something I thought about before I looked at what comments had already been made. Maybe this is food for thought.

In years gone by many natural remedies, egs. from Aromatherapy and Homeopathy, were utilized as having the cure or aid for various ailments. In more modern times antibiotics and medicine for pain and fever have been patented and favored. On the one hand, where the earlier remedies don't work, there needs to be balance and consulting with a doctor. On the other hand, Doctors that reject alternative medicine in favor of patented, branded medicines, are being too narrow minded.

The truth is, many of the molecular facets of the alternative modern medicines are copies of the same types of properties in the alternative medicines of yesteryear. Duplicating in a laboratory, and patenting, may make pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars, but these can have side effects that the natural remedies (from nature) don't have. Balance is necessary. Both have a place in maintaining health. What may seem like an old wives tale to use when we are ill may be the best thing to maintain health before we go to the doctor. Bring back what Great Grandma used to use.

[Sushan]

...there are practices that actually have a validity. They may have started as ritualistic practices, but with new scientific advancements some of them have gained scientific value.

I wonder if, at first, they were remembered, and laid down as "ritualistic practices" because they had use and value? Later, when science came along, they did not "gain" value; they already had it. It was science doing the catching-up, not the ancient practices.

That's an intriguing perspective. Indeed, it could be argued that many ancient practices held innate value long before we had the means to scientifically explain or validate them. In essence, science does not confer value, but rather elucidates the underlying principles and mechanisms that make these practices valuable. Your viewpoint lends credence to the argument that while not all ancient practices may withstand the test of scientific scrutiny, it doesn't necessarily imply they lacked value to begin with.

However, there is also an importance in scrutinizing and critically evaluating these practices to avoid blind adherence, especially when some practices could be rooted in superstition, prejudice, or misconceptions, and may not be beneficial or even harmful.

The challenge, therefore, is finding the right balance between honoring traditional wisdom and welcoming scientific scrutiny. I wonder, how do you see this balance being best achieved? What guiding principles should we apply in this critical evaluation?

[Sushan]

This is a question I thought about some time ago. For me the trigger was to find an answer to the question of how religion originates. Although this might deserve a feed in itself, part of the answer captures the subject proposed in this feed.

It is for me a fact that there are practices humans perform in “idle mode” without necessarily thinking about the origin, meaning, benefit or possible alternatives. Such practices (SP) can be categorised depending on multiple variables. Some examples might be:


- Time: some SP might have started hundreds or thousands of years ago, being perceived as intrinsic to human nature (biological trait) or a specific society (cultural trait or tradition). Oder SP might be more recent and therefore seen as family tradition, common practices related to a specific social group or class.

- Authority (mean of transmission):
I state here that all SP are more or less imposed by an authority figure. SP are imposed for example through religion (dogmas), governments and society (social contracts, laws, education, economic system, etc), specialists like professors, doctors and scientists (remedies, processes, etc).

- Significance: i differentiate here between those which have spiritual/personal/communal significance (rituals) and those which do not.

- Utility: I differentiate here between those which are beneficial, neutral and harmful.

These four categories help me to identify a path I believe SP follow to become idle (and for other reasons not argued here, also the origin of religion). We have to consider the following factors:

1. Energy efficiency.
A tendency to use the minimum amount of energy is observed in most aspects of nature. As human beings, this is also anchored in our biology. Most actions and brain functions follow this.

2. Authority bias.
This is the tendency to give more importance or let ourselves be influenced by the opinions of authority figures, although those opinions might not be relevant for the question.

3. Information depreciation or generational loss.
This is the generational equivalent of the “telephone game”. Information tends to experience changes that can lead to a complete loss of the original meaning.

4. Ignorance or absence of Critical Thinking.
With this I mean genuine ignorance, cognitive biases or lack of self-reflection.

Adding these factors we find the perfect path for SP to become idle:

If we assume that 1 & 2 are part of our nature I can see that given our natural predisposition to minimise our effort while performing any activity - especially when a high level of repetition is found- and our disposition to believe what authorities figures say; the consequence of this natural predisposition is that people tend to automate processes and do things as they are being told. Therefore it is easy to see how potential SP come to be.

In order for these Practices to become idle, we need 3 & 4. When some automated practices appear (3) and are taught from generation to generation the probability that small changes of an explanation happen is really high. Consequently, either the reason for doing that changes completely or is even lost.
When we do not ask ourselves why we do something for whatever reason (4) the possibility of meaning loss is very high. This happens from my point of view everywhere, from religion and traditions to engineering and production processes.



In my opinion all forms of SP are inevitable. I think however, that if we reflect and have a critical thinking approach, we can identify those SP which tend to be neutral or harmful, question them and avoid them.

I also think that those which are neutral but full of meaning are to be respected (like religious rituals) if they are performed freely.

In my opinion, the rest which might be harmful or lack significance are a product basically of ignorance. We all suffer from SP and therefore I would like to be humble and not criticise people directly rather call for awareness and try to identify those SP we can liberate ourselves from.

Thank you for your comprehensive analysis on the subject matter. I absolutely appreciate your categorization of practices and the factors leading to their perpetuation across generations. The inclusion of energy efficiency, authority bias, information depreciation, and absence of critical thinking does shed light on the reasons why certain practices persist even without being critically questioned.

Your point on how information depreciation or generational loss can lead to a complete transformation or loss of the original meaning of a practice is especially pertinent. It brings to mind instances where practices have been divorced from their original context and become purely ritualistic, losing their practical or symbolic significance in the process.

Your perspective calls for a balanced approach to ancient practices, highlighting the importance of respect for practices that hold meaning, alongside a critical examination of those practices that may be harmful or lack significance.

I concur with your view that increasing awareness and fostering critical thinking is a crucial step in this process. Encouraging dialogue and curiosity, asking "why" and "how," and seeking evidence can help us reevaluate these practices.

On the flip side, what role do you think cultural preservation plays in maintaining certain practices? How can we maintain the balance between questioning practices critically, and the risk of erasing cultural heritage in the process?

[Sushan]

My thought on this topic is something I thought about before I looked at what comments had already been made. Maybe this is food for thought.

In years gone by many natural remedies, egs. from Aromatherapy and Homeopathy, were utilized as having the cure or aid for various ailments. In more modern times antibiotics and medicine for pain and fever have been patented and favored. On the one hand, where the earlier remedies don't work, there needs to be balance and consulting with a doctor. On the other hand, Doctors that reject alternative medicine in favor of patented, branded medicines, are being too narrow minded.

The truth is, many of the molecular facets of the alternative modern medicines are copies of the same types of properties in the alternative medicines of yesteryear. Duplicating in a laboratory, and patenting, may make pharmaceutical companies billions of dollars, but these can have side effects that the natural remedies (from nature) don't have. Balance is necessary. Both have a place in maintaining health. What may seem like an old wives tale to use when we are ill may be the best thing to maintain health before we go to the doctor. Bring back what Great Grandma used to use.

You've made an insightful point about the intersection between ancient practices and modern medicine. The cycle of validating, rejecting, and then rediscovering the wisdom inherent in many traditional practices, particularly around health and healing, is indeed fascinating.

Indeed, it's important to highlight that many "modern" treatments have their roots in ancient remedies. It is also true that certain practices, when transferred from their natural forms to a synthesized, lab-made form, can lead to unwanted side effects. However, it's equally necessary to acknowledge the many advantages modern medicine has brought to us, such as the ability to treat previously untreatable diseases, and a significant improvement in overall health outcomes and life expectancy.

The idea of balance is indeed essential. Ancient practices and modern approaches to health need not be mutually exclusive. Instead, they can complement each other, offering a holistic perspective to health and wellbeing.

The key, as with many practices that are passed down through generations, is the willingness to scrutinize and question the basis of these practices. Some may stand up to scientific scrutiny and remain valuable, others may need to be updated or discarded. Importantly, such decisions should be based on rigorous testing and analysis, rather than simply a deference to tradition or an uncritical embrace of novelty.

What are your thoughts on how we can effectively incorporate both ancient wisdom and modern science to achieve the best possible health outcomes? How can we ensure that we're taking a critical and open-minded approach, rather than falling into a bias towards either the 'ancient' or the 'modern'?