Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Pattern-chaser]

The sun does not set nor does it rise. We know that from science.

From the perspective (i.e. viewpoint) of my back garden, the Sun does set, and it does rise. We know that from science.

From an astronomical perspective — a viewpoint used by a tiny minority of us, a tiny amount of the time — we see something different, as you imply. This is quite understandable. If you move the point of observation, what you see changes. We know that from science. Although, in this case, it is so simple and obvious that applying science is a bit of a hammer-to-crack-a-nut — if I look at you from the back and the front, I see different things, and both views are correct and useful.

The view that we take for most of our real lives reflects the older truth, that the Sun rises and sets. We know that from science.

[Sculptor1]

You might be better off if you reject the indoctrinations of your youth and proceed with things you can say about the world upon which you are on more solid ground.

I.e., pedantically-but-accurately, say more or less nothing about pretty much everything.

You may be (and remain) ignorant, but you won't be mistaken.

Even a person with the most limited imagination understands perfectly what I mean, unless you live in a 100% urban environment never seeing the sky or the wind on your face.

That may be so. But this is a philosophy forum, so one is expected (?) to wear one's 'Philosophy Hat'. And, wearing that particular Hat, we can say that there is very little "solid ground".

I am wearing my philosophy hat.

I think we can also observe that childhood "indoctrination" is called "education".

No that is not what I meant.
Some of that is real education.

It becomes indoctrination, or brainwashing, only when children are taught something with which you do not agree.

Rubbish, you you know it.

We do our best for our kids, and sometimes we get things wrong. But we try, and most of us benefit muchly from the upbringing we receive, and the education we receive while growing.

Philosophically, even "seeing the sky or the wind on your face" is not necessarily 'solid ground'. It depends on the context of the (philosophical) discussion.

...

But you know all this, and yet you still object, and post your 'Certaintist' theories as if they were factual...?

[amorphos_ii]

We could imagine the sentiment ‘unfathomable’ as if it were the very essence of reality akin to energy, then that all info and meaning hits this abyss and is torn apart at the seams. Equally so, that everything has its origins in there too, hence we cannot trace then nor find beginnings ~ chaos does not adhere to absolutes.

- this is why I don’t think of the unfathomable like that. For me I’d rather go with mysterious than chaotic, because chaos too has a nature, it can be written as code or formulas or simply be white noise. As soon as we give the unfathomable any kind of properties, then we are no longer speaking of the same thing.

You know, when the European Christians came to north America, when confronted with the notion of God, the natives said ‘ah yes, the great mystery’! ...but they didn’t mean the same thing, if I may, I’d say that they took it that the Christians inferred the same thing.

[AmericanKestrel]

We are biological just as animals and other things are. But we do not behave like animals. We don't have a breeding season, we don't migrate seeking water. So there is something different about us, we want to know why.

Wrong we do all of those things. and there are animals that do not do those things. There is nothing distinctly unique about humans except the skill people like you have to think you are better, and that there might be, (rather arrogantly) some sort of cosmic or supernatural reason that we are different. Well get this, all animals including us are different. We are, in the words of Robert Foley "Another Unique Species".

When you say "we", are you referring to the Royal "We"?. By what right do you speak for all humans?

We as in humans, and no I do not speak for all humans, only as one. Who are those people like me that you are referring to? As humans we suffer in ways animals do not. We desire things, we strive to achieve the desired, we cheat, we crave, we envy, we build and accumulate wealth. Animals don't deal in currency, they don't care about what the stock market did yesterday. Do you still think your dog does all these same things?

[Sculptor1]

We are biological just as animals and other things are. But we do not behave like animals. We don't have a breeding season, we don't migrate seeking water. So there is something different about us, we want to know why.

Wrong we do all of those things. and there are animals that do not do those things. There is nothing distinctly unique about humans except the skill people like you have to think you are better, and that there might be, (rather arrogantly) some sort of cosmic or supernatural reason that we are different. Well get this, all animals including us are different. We are, in the words of Robert Foley "Another Unique Species".

When you say "we", are you referring to the Royal "We"?. By what right do you speak for all humans?

We as in humans, and no I do not speak for all humans, only as one. Who are those people like me that you are referring to? As humans we suffer in ways animals do not. We desire things, we strive to achieve the desired, we cheat, we crave, we envy, we build and accumulate wealth. Animals don't deal in currency, they don't care about what the stock market did yesterday. Do you still think your dog does all these same things?

All those fears are imaginary. The stock market is not real.
Other animals suffer real pain, not the anodyne pain under the haze of morphine.

[AmericanKestrel]

We are biological just as animals and other things are. But we do not behave like animals. We don't have a breeding season, we don't migrate seeking water. So there is something different about us, we want to know why.

Wrong we do all of those things. and there are animals that do not do those things. There is nothing distinctly unique about humans except the skill people like you have to think you are better, and that there might be, (rather arrogantly) some sort of cosmic or supernatural reason that we are different. Well get this, all animals including us are different. We are, in the words of Robert Foley "Another Unique Species".

When you say "we", are you referring to the Royal "We"?. By what right do you speak for all humans?

We as in humans, and no I do not speak for all humans, only as one. Who are those people like me that you are referring to? As humans we suffer in ways animals do not. We desire things, we strive to achieve the desired, we cheat, we crave, we envy, we build and accumulate wealth. Animals don't deal in currency, they don't care about what the stock market did yesterday. Do you still think your dog does all these same things?

All those fears are imaginary. The stock market is not real.
Other animals suffer real pain, not the anodyne pain under the haze of morphine.

Yet we lose sleep over an imaginary market. There are people making a living, billions, off this imaginary market. That is even worse than worrying about something real. And what IS real?
Does your dog worry about the market and lose sleep?

[Sculptor1]

Wrong we do all of those things. and there are animals that do not do those things. There is nothing distinctly unique about humans except the skill people like you have to think you are better, and that there might be, (rather arrogantly) some sort of cosmic or supernatural reason that we are different. Well get this, all animals including us are different. We are, in the words of Robert Foley "Another Unique Species".

When you say "we", are you referring to the Royal "We"?. By what right do you speak for all humans?

We as in humans, and no I do not speak for all humans, only as one. Who are those people like me that you are referring to? As humans we suffer in ways animals do not. We desire things, we strive to achieve the desired, we cheat, we crave, we envy, we build and accumulate wealth. Animals don't deal in currency, they don't care about what the stock market did yesterday. Do you still think your dog does all these same things?

All those fears are imaginary. The stock market is not real.
Other animals suffer real pain, not the anodyne pain under the haze of morphine.

Yet we lose sleep over an imaginary market. There are people making a living, billions, off this imaginary market. That is even worse than worrying about something real. And what IS real?
Does your dog worry about the market and lose sleep?

No, but he is dying of an as yet undiagnosed disease but cannot tell us how much he might be suffering.

If you are worried about money or markets then you are just worrying about worries. All that hubris is just self inflicted.

[Pattern-chaser]

[...]

Yet we lose sleep over an imaginary market. There are people making a living, billions, off this imaginary market. That is even worse than worrying about something real. And what IS real?

Well, money isn't real, for a start. It's a simple con-trick. But the things one can buy with money, *they* are mostly real.

[LuckyR]

[...]

Yet we lose sleep over an imaginary market. There are people making a living, billions, off this imaginary market. That is even worse than worrying about something real. And what IS real?

Well, money isn't real, for a start. It's a simple con-trick. But the things one can buy with money, *they* are mostly real.

Mild clarification: money's value exists intersubjectively, not objectively (that's why it actually buys stuff, real stuff).

[amorphos_ii]

Money is simply representative, all animals recognise the value of food. Civilisation began with farming, where grain gave a surplus of food – in feudal japan rice was the currency. If an animal has more than enough food, and others in the pack don’t, they then have power over the others.

This does not pertain to the unfathomable as a philosophical notion or entity though.