Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

Philosophy Discussion Forums
A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

The Philosophy Forums at OnlinePhilosophyClub.com aim to be an oasis of intelligent in-depth civil debate and discussion. Topics discussed extend far beyond philosophy and philosophers. What makes us a philosophy forum is more about our approach to the discussions than what subject is being debated. Common topics include but are absolutely not limited to neuroscience, psychology, sociology, cosmology, religion, political theory, ethics, and so much more.

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Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
#444053
In order to logically prove that consciousness is fundamental to reality, one must be able to define consciousness, as well as reality, and then demonstrate how these definitions are equal, or how the definition of reality presupposes the definition of consciousness. In what follows, I will define consciousness as is evidenced through observations of our inner-experiences, as well as define reality in a number of ways that sufficiently represents any and all ontologies, and then demonstrate how these definitions of reality presuppose consciousness, and how if consciousness were not presupposed by reality, reality would not meet the necessary conditions for existence as posed by its definition(s).

While there is no established definition of consciousness by which to prove that consciousness is fundamental to reality, there is a consensus among many professionals that any definition of consciousness must account for the hard problem of consciousness. The hard problem of consciousness was proposed by David Chalmers in 1994, and it posits that consciousness cannot be satisfactorily explained in terms of physical systems alone, because this would not account for how and why we have the subjective experience of qualities (Chalmers, 1997, p. 4). Subjective experience provides us with our underlying understanding of consciousness, for we only know of consciousness due to our personal qualitative experience with it. When we observe the consciousness of another human being, rather, we do not have access to the qualities of their private inner-conscious life, and so to us, that human being is in many ways indistinguishable from a machine that could merely be mimicking these conscious traits. We only infer that the other human in observation also has consciousness due to the similarities we draw from our own inner-conscious experience. So when we investigate what makes something conscious, as opposed to not conscious, we can only draw evidence from our own inner-conscious experiences. Contrarily, we cannot draw evidence from any physical interactions that could, at best, “mimic” these conscious traits, insofar as we can possibly comprehend. Even if consciousness/subjective experience did require some specific physical interactions, how subjective experience occurs — the essential character of our consciousness — would still remain a mystery, as what it is like to experience would not be demonstrated by the physical interactions themselves. The physical interactions of consciousness are thereby a manifestation of consciousness, whereas the the defining features of consciousness are the phenomena from our inner-experiences. Therefore, It is only through personal reflections of our own experiences, about our own experiences, that we can properly define consciousness.

It may be contested that this only allows for defining one’s own conscious experience to oneself, but does not allow for defining another's conscious experience, as one cannot become the experience of another subject. However, by granting that another individual is conscious, one is granting an instance of a category that they know to be true within themselves. Thus, one can reasonably infer that other subjects are also conscious if they display characteristics that belong to the same category as themselves as experiencing subjects. One can then progress towards defining consciousness by asking other subjects if a given explanation about their own inner-conscious life applies equally to them. This approach to achieving a general consensus on what constitutes consciousness is no different than how multiple subjects can agree upon the characteristics of a tree that stands in front of them. They compare observations on the matter to achieve general consensus on a model thereof.

Axiom 1: Consciousness/experience = That which knows by bridging sensed substances with qualitative meaning.

The basic empirical fact about our subjective experience realized by those who undertake personal reflections of their own thinking is that it is, fundamentally, what it is like to know. Knowledge is a factor of all subjective experiencing. We can easily recite Descartes “I think, therefore I am” when laying this foundation: Thinking provides the knowledge that we exist (Descartes, 1644, p. 2). However, “what it is like to know” still isn’t a sufficient definition of consciousness, because it does not account for other aspects of our subjective experience that permit us to know, and which knowing entails. When we reflect upon our acquisition of knowledge, we notice that it is in reference to observed substances, and that we know of such observed substances by its association with a qualitative meaning. Thus, we can claim that knowledge is the bridge between observed substances and qualitative meaning (Steiner, 1916, p. 58).

Our subjective experience isn’t merely the sensory impressions of substances, as this fails to account for the fact that we also interpret these sensory impressions in a uniquely qualitative manner. For example, if we were to observe water flowing through a river, we do not necessarily interpret the experience as such, precisely. We may interpret the experience with thoughts about the marine life within the river. This is a meaningful quality attached to the substances alerted to us by our observation/sensory impression. Inversely, neither do we think of “qualitative meaning” without any reference to substances alerted to us by our senses, as this fails to account for the fact that we can observe and sense substances permeating us at all times. Our thoughts about marine life within a river are in reference to sensory impressions - whether that be sensory impressions of substances from the outside world, or from memory. As such, the formation of knowledge requires both our sensory impression of substances, and the qualitatively meaningful thoughts that we attach to these sensory impressions of substances. Our sensory observations of water flowing through a river is knowledgeable to us because we attach to it a qualitative meaning by which it is comprehensible as knowledge. Therefore, knowledge is the bridge between the substances of our sensory impressions and the qualitative meaning of our thoughts. This is a basic observation of our inner-experience which we can claim as fact, as it is empirically evident in all subjective experiencing. This fact alone most certainly is not an explanation of all subjective experience. However, it is from this basic fact that we infer all additional phenomena of our subjective experience, of which ultimately reduces back to this basic fact. Thus, the fact that knowledge is the bridge between sensed substances and qualitative meaning is by all accounts the defining characteristic of our subjective experience/consciousness (Steiner, 1916, p. 58).

We must not mistake this definition of consciousness as dualistic. Dualism assumes two systems totally distinct from one another, and attempts to show how one of these two systems offers an explanation for the other. Whereas, this definition of consciousness presupposes two sides of a single system. It suggests that consciousness is the capacity to form sensory impressions of substances, and to attach qualitative meaning (thought) to such sensory impressions, as mediated by our capacity for knowledge. We could, perhaps, say that the substances and qualities themselves do pose a duality. However, knowledge fuses these together as a unified whole. As such, the substances and qualities of our experience do not have separate existences. They are, rather, two sides of the same system bridged together by knowledge (Steiner 1916, p. 69).

Furthermore, this definition of consciousness does not necessarily imply that the substances in observation in and of themselves are meaningfully altered by our consciousness, but rather, that our perception of the substances are given a qualitative meaning. Whether or not the physical substances actually change by experiencing them cannot, to the best of my knowledge, be answered by reflecting upon our inner experiences, because such would require an inference about what is outside of ourselves as experiencing agents (the outer world). Rather, it is the aim of this paper to demonstrate how qualitative meaning, knowledge, and substances are integral to consciousness, and how this is necessary for the existence of reality at large.

Axiom 2: Reality has a descriptive definition: Reality is the sum of all that is real, as opposed to absolutely nothing.

To demonstrate that consciousness is fundamental to reality, the definition of consciousness must equate to the definition of reality, or presuppose the definition of reality. Consciousness = reality if and only if it is true by definition. How reality as a whole is defined is among the most contested questions in philosophy and science. A descriptive definition of reality is only adequate if there are no actual or possible counterexamples to it (Gupta, 2008). This fact alone invalidates almost every conceivable definition. For example, reality cannot be defined by a specific empirically verifiable physical theory because we could provide counterexamples of other empirically verifiable physical theories. Even if there were an empirically verifiable physical theory which encapsulated all other empirically verifiable physical theories, it would not encapsulate the qualitatively meaningful aspects of our conscious experience, as has been previously demonstrated. Physical ontological theories and qualitative non-physical ontological theories cannot be encapsulated within the same ontology, as they are ontologically oppositional. The physical theories are counterexamples to qualitative non-physical theories, and vise versa. Thus, either only one of these two ontologies truly represents reality, or both of them are somehow tied into the same ontology. Thus, reality can only be adequately defined in a manner that is general enough so as to not presuppose either ontology independent of the other. Furthermore, as general as an adequate definition of reality must be, it must also be sufficiently meaningful. For example, reality cannot simply be defined so generally as “all that is real'' because such fails to define what is real, or thereby what is reality. A descriptive definition of a term that merely identifies as the term being defined does not suffice as a proper definition thereto, for it does not provide any further meaning. We cannot descriptively define reality based entirely on what it is — “all that is real'' — because this fails to account for that which reality is not, and implies that which it is not within its own definition by failing to exclude it therefrom, and is thereby false. When we fail to define what reality is not, we equally fail to define what reality is. Thus, we now have two necessary conditions upon which reality can be adequately defined: The definition must be general enough such that there can be no actual or possible counter examples, and it must be specific enough such that is sufficiently meaningful.

With that said, an adequate descriptive definition of reality is as follows: Reality is the sum of all that is real, as opposed to absolutely nothing. This definition of reality is adequately descriptive because there are no possible or actual counterexamples, and because it is sufficiently meaningful. There are no actual or possible counterexamples because anything actually or possibly real is encapsulated within it. Additionally, it is sufficiently meaningful because it appropriately excludes absolute nothingness as something actually or possibly real. It is impossible for absolutely nothing to exist because to speak on the concept of “absolute nothingness”, one has to instead speak on “something”. Even though absolute nothingness is conceivable in concept, it does not exist because the meaning of the concept contradicts the result from having conceptualized it as something real. While the concept of absolute nothingness is certainly real, absolute nothingness, in and of itself, cannot be real. This definition of reality gives meaning to the term reality by specifying the necessary and sufficient conditions upon which the term applies — that it is not absolute nothingness. By failing to define reality in this way, but instead, merely defining it as “all that is real” or “all that is consciously imagined”, absolute nothingness is falsely implicated as a possible aspect of reality, or at least, isn’t appropriately excluded therefrom.

While it is most adequate and general to define reality as ‘the sum of all that is real, as opposed to absolutely nothing”, one of the purposes of this paper is to demonstrate how any definition that proposes consciousness as an emergent property of reality, in fact, presupposes consciousness as fundamental to reality. Thus, I will also propose two additional definitions of reality that adequately represents the two primary opposing ontologies (theistic ontologies vs materialist ontologies) for the purposes of demonstrating this point:

Definition 1: “Reality is the sum of all that is consciously imagined, as opposed to absolute nothingness”.

Definition 2: “Reality is the sum of all that is real, as opposed to that which is only consciously imagined, as well as absolute nothingness”

Definition 1 generally represents a theistic ontology, (including idealism, panpsychism, etc.), for it gives reality at large the quality of conscious imagination. Whereas, definition 2 generally represents a materialist ontology (including realism, objectivism, etc) for it excludes that which is imagined as fundamental to reality. In what follows, I will demonstrate how consciousness is presupposed by either definition, and thereby irrespective of one's ontological stance.

Axiom 3: Reality has essential substances

The prospect that reality has substances — irrespective of what they are and their significance — is almost a universally held claim. Substances in a given ontology are foundational entities, and are different for each philosophical system. For example, in Plato’s system, substances are forms. And similarly, in David Hume's system, substances are ideas. Whereas for an atomist, substances are atoms (Robinson, 2004). Regardless of what these substances are, any and all ontological arguments must be formed around the existence of substances.

Axiom 4: The definition of reality owns the criteria for the essential substances & non-substances of reality.

The definition of reality informs the essential substances of reality because they are posed by the definition of reality. If, rather, the essential substances of reality were contrary to that which is posed by the definition of reality, they could not be used to define reality, and the definition of reality would have no bearing on its substances. This, of course, cannot be the case; the definition of reality owns the criteria for reality. Thus, what reality is by definition informs the essential substances posed by the definition. The only definitive substances posed by the two proposed definitions of reality are “realness” (definition 2), and “conscious imagination” (definition 1)). However, what properties may further consist of these substances is not explicitly stated by these definitions alone, and is not important for the purposes of this proof procedure. Furthermore, these definitions also reference nothingness. While nothingness is actually the absence of substance, it is still required to define reality with. The non-substance nothingness is essential for defining the substance realness, and is thereby equally essential as the substance realness for defining reality. Thus, nothingness can be regarded as an essential non-substance of reality.

With these 4 axioms in place, consider the following inquiry:
4_Being_and_Nothing.png
4_Being_and_Nothing.png (18.15 KiB) Viewed 4705 times
Does the above graphical representation imply the following definition of reality?

Reality is all that is real, as opposed to absolutely nothing.
Answer: No, it does not.

The graphic does distinguish between reality and nothing, but it also displays both of them together. All It implies is the substance realness and the non-substance nothingness.

Without considering what the definition means, while maintaining the substances/non-substances posed by the definition (realness and nothingness), it is implied that reality has the substance realness and the non-substance nothingness — that reality is both something and absolutely nothing. Evidently, this would contradict the meaning/definition of reality — all that is real, as opposed to absolutely nothing. Realness and nothingness are indeed essential substances and non-substances for defining reality as “all that is not nothing”, but only in terms of that meaningful definition upon which they are posed. In other words, as per the definition of reality, reality is the meaningful configuration of the substance realness and the non-substance nothingness in a qualitative manner that only means realness. Whereas, without the meaningful configuration of the substance realness and the non-substance nothingness as per the definition of reality, nothingness isn't appropriately excluded from reality. Thus, the essential substances and non-substances of reality are subject to the qualitative meaning reality gives them in order to fulfill the criteria posed by its definition. Whereas, without considering the qualitative meaning reality gives its essential substances and non-substances, the criteria posed by the definition is not fulfilled, as it is implied that reality is both real/something and nothing. Therefore, reality cannot just be its substances and non-substances in order to fulfill the criteria of being “all that is not nothing”. Rather, reality must be that which knows by bridging qualitative meaning and substances/non-substances, in order to fulfill the criteria of being “all that is not nothing”. In other words, this definition of reality is of knowledge, with a criteria that is only fulfilled by bridging together the qualitative meaning of the definition with the substances/non-substances posed by the definition. This is also equivalent to the proposed definition of consciousness (Axiom 1: Consciousness/experience = That which knows by bridging qualitative meaning with substances). Therefore, the definition of reality presupposes consciousness.

I previously demonstrated two additional potentially adequate descriptive definitions of reality that reflect the two opposing theistic vs materialistic ontologies. With either of these two definitions, the same reasoning can be applied to demonstrate how reality presupposes consciousness. Definition 2 of reality posits that what is consciously imagined is not fundamental to reality. In order for this definition of reality to be of any meaning, it must be consciously imagined/conceptualized so, or else it would merely amount to a set of substances and non-substances with no meaningful configuration. However, consciously imagining this definition would demonstrate its own falsehood, as such would contradict the meaning posed by the definition. Reality cannot fundamentally be something that isn't consciously imagined when conscious imagination is required to define reality in this way. Therefore, Definition 2 is false, and also presupposes consciousness.

As demonstrated by this paper, how reality is the meaningful configuration of the substance something/realness and the non-substance absolute nothingness in a manner that just means something/realness corresponds to how our minds organize sensory information into meaningful concepts. According to our observations of our inner-experiences, our sensory perception accumulates streams of data (substances) from our environment, while our thinking organizes these streams of data into meaningful concepts. Data drawn from our sensory perceptions are included within some conceptual ideas, and excluded from others. It is this conscious ability that, according to this paper, reality at large applies to itself in order to fulfill the criteria posed by its own definition. With the variable of consciousness, reality excludes itself from absolute nothingness and thereby fulfills the criteria posed by its definition. Whereas, without the variable of consciousness, something would have no way of excluding itself from absolute nothingness, and reality would fail to fulfill the criteria posed by its definition.

Naturally, the question now remains whether this logical proof that consciousness is fundamental to reality extends to a logical proof of God. Every religion defines god differently. However, most religions have in common the central idea that God is an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent universal consciousness (Wainwright, 2006). Aside from this, there is no general consensus on what God is or does. With that said, the logical proof in this paper does indeed extend to a logical proof of God as most theists commonly interpret God, for this paper logically proves that a universal consciousness is necessary for the eternal being of reality.

It may be contested that we cannot give God qualities that we project from our own human consciousness, for we are not God. However, consciousness is innately within us humans. And, hypothetically, for these defining factors of our consciousness to differ from the consciousness of reality at large (God) would only indicate that either what we experience as consciousness is not in fact consciousness, or that consciousness is not in fact presupposed by reality at large (God). However, this paper has demonstrated that we are in fact conscious, and how said consciousness is presupposed by reality at large. Therefore, our human consciousness can project the underlying qualities of God. However, for the reason that we are not God, this paper does not demonstrate what further characteristics God may have. While the particulars of our human consciousness most certainly differs from God, we ultimately share the underlying characteristics of consciousness that make us conscious beings to begin with. While we are but humans, and sometimes all too human, we also possess within us the innate characteristics of consciousness that marks our connection to God and eternal life.

References:

Chalmers, David. J. (1997). The Conscious Mind: In Search of a Fundamental Theory. Oxford University Press.

Descartes, Rene. (1644). Principles of Philosophy. SMK Books.

Gupta, Anil, "Definitions", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2021 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL = <Definitions (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy/Winter 2021 Edition)>.

Robinson, Howard, "Substance", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2021 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL = <Substance (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy/Fall 2021 Edition)>.

Steiner, Rudolf. (2011). The Philosophy of Freedom: The Basis for a Modern World Conception. Rudolf Steiner Press.

Wainwright, William, "Concepts of God", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2017 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL = <Concepts of God (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy/Winter 2017 Edition)>.

Image References:

Maybee, J. E. 2016. Figure 4 [Photograph]. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Winter 2020 Edition). <Hegel’s Dialectics>.
#444092
I have read your paper and, initially, I was puzzled by it being in the philosophy of religion section. However, it seems that you are linking the idea of consciousness and God. It also appears to be an argument for idealism and wonder if this is the issue which you are wishing to explore, because you don't raise any specific questions.
#444117
There is a common philosophical error of confusing the symbol with that which it symbolises. I suspect that this thesis is not entirely free from that error.

Words are symbols. Words can be defined. Reality exists regardless of the definitions of the words that any particular conscious mind proposes. Nothing you say about definitions binds reality to correspond to your definitions.
#444122
Good_Egg wrote: July 5th, 2023, 9:31 am There is a common philosophical error of confusing the symbol with that which it symbolises. I suspect that this thesis is not entirely free from that error.

Words are symbols. Words can be defined. Reality exists regardless of the definitions of the words that any particular conscious mind proposes. Nothing you say about definitions binds reality to correspond to your definitions.
Doesn't my 4th axiom address this?
"Axiom 4: The definition of reality owns the criteria for the essential substances & non-substances of reality."
Thanks for your comment.
#444169
Interesting paper!

The theory seems to be pretty good. However, why argue that it is consciousness that is fundamental?

Your paper does mention several times that it concerns the underlying characteristics of consciousness and that those characteristics would be shared with God. What I don't understand is why you wouldn't prefer to argue that life is fundamental to Reality because life is fundamental to consciousness which implies that consciousness itself cannot be fundamental to Reality.
#444221
ConsciousAI wrote: July 6th, 2023, 10:34 pm Interesting paper!

The theory seems to be pretty good. However, why argue that it is consciousness that is fundamental?

Your paper does mention several times that it concerns the underlying characteristics of consciousness and that those characteristics would be shared with God. What I don't understand is why you wouldn't prefer to argue that life is fundamental to Reality because life is fundamental to consciousness which implies that consciousness itself cannot be fundamental to Reality.
Thanks for reading!

It’s difficult to pinpoint what constitutes “life”. Whether it is merely a term that refers to all biological phenomena or if it refers to non-biological phenomenon as well. There isn’t much consensus on this, so I figure that it’s too vague of a term to base the paper off of

The following is an excerpt from the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy:

“Similarly, for any definition of life, one can either show living cases that are left out of the definition or non-living cases that are included by it. Life is organized, but so are geological formations. Life processes energy, but so does fire. Life evolves using complex biochemistry, but so do prions. Life is self-sustaining, but parasites are not. Life is at thermodynamic disequilibrium, but so is much else. As we’ll see shortly, perhaps theoretical definitions are too rigid a standard. The real world is far too complex for limited criteria to decide every marginal case.”
#447911
The original post reminds of those ads for language courses which promise, "speak Chinese in a day"! A whole history of Western Philosophy in a couple of pages. Grant R Henderson, you AI genius, I suspect you have solved all philosphical problems for all time!

But first you need to explicate and prove your opening assertion. "Consciousness is fundamental to reality" - what does that even mean? Are you asserting Bishop Berkely's position? Are you asserting that the universe could not exist outside of human consciousness? But of course, you might be a Behaviorist, in which case, the existence of bacteria would be sufficient to guarantee the existence of the Universe?

Friends in philosophy, you and I have had enough of this nonsense... and yet, I fear, it still has some considerable distance to run...
#448698
Grant R Henderson wrote: July 8th, 2023, 6:25 amIt’s difficult to pinpoint what constitutes “life”. ... Life is organized, but so are geological formations.
You mention that a primary quality of life is 'organization'. What about the structure in the cosmos, doesn't that require the same quality?

The cosmos is reality.

When it can be established that cosmic structure is the source of reality and when it is established that the primary characteristic of life is organization or the forming of cosmic structure, then it seems to me that one should look at that primary characteristic of life to explain the fundamental nature of reality.
#449301
Grant R Henderson wrote: July 3rd, 2023, 11:14 am In order to logically prove that consciousness is fundamental to reality, one must be able to define consciousness, as well as reality, and then demonstrate how these definitions are equal, or how the definition of reality presupposes the definition of consciousness. In what follows, I will define consciousness as is evidenced through observations of our inner-experiences, as well as define reality in a number of ways that sufficiently represents any and all ontologies, and then demonstrate how these definitions of reality presuppose consciousness, and how if consciousness were not presupposed by reality, reality would not meet the necessary conditions for existence as posed by its definition(s).
Maybe I'm jumping ahead of what is going to be demonstrated, but it is important to point out that the real problem is not so much if consciousness is fundamental to reality, but whether it is fundamental to objective reality or not. If not, what else you would demonstrate? That reality is necessarily experienced subjectively? That there's no account of reality that is not subjective? This would not prove, however, that reality needs consciousness to exist (objectively).
Grant R Henderson wrote: July 3rd, 2023, 11:14 am While there is no established definition of consciousness by which to prove that consciousness is fundamental to reality, there is a consensus among many professionals that any definition of consciousness must account for the hard problem of consciousness. The hard problem of consciousness was proposed by David Chalmers in 1994, and it posits that consciousness cannot be satisfactorily explained in terms of physical systems alone, because this would not account for how and why we have the subjective experience of qualities (Chalmers, 1997, p. 4).
This is in need of clarification. While many philosophers, and I suppose some scientists as well, might be part of those professionals that embrace the "hard problem of consciousness" it is by no means what sets the standard for everyone to work with. Dennett and many others reject it, as well as I do. The argument that "consciousness cannot be satisfactorily explained in terms of physical systems alone" lacks substance if it cannot provide what is meant by nor point to a non-physical system. No one knows such thing, and even if we know little about the physical systems that comprise the nature in which we live, we don't know of anything else. Of course, all descriptions of "something else" arise from religious, supernatural thinking, that is then transposed to philosophical systems.
Grant R Henderson wrote: July 3rd, 2023, 11:14 am Subjective experience provides us with our underlying understanding of consciousness, for we only know of consciousness due to our personal qualitative experience with it. When we observe the consciousness of another human being, rather, we do not have access to the qualities of their private inner-conscious life, and so to us, that human being is in many ways indistinguishable from a machine that could merely be mimicking these conscious traits. We only infer that the other human in observation also has consciousness due to the similarities we draw from our own inner-conscious experience. So when we investigate what makes something conscious, as opposed to not conscious, we can only draw evidence from our own inner-conscious experiences. Contrarily, we cannot draw evidence from any physical interactions that could, at best, “mimic” these conscious traits, insofar as we can possibly comprehend. Even if consciousness/subjective experience did require some specific physical interactions, how subjective experience occurs — the essential character of our consciousness — would still remain a mystery, as what it is like to experience would not be demonstrated by the physical interactions themselves. The physical interactions of consciousness are thereby a manifestation of consciousness, whereas the the defining features of consciousness are the phenomena from our inner-experiences. Therefore, It is only through personal reflections of our own experiences, about our own experiences, that we can properly define consciousness.
As we have seen so many times, this is the path taken by anti-realists (aka idealists). It leads, always, to solipsism, which means, if we take it seriously, that you could never properly define consciousness, that is, consciousness as it can also work in other beings, but only your own consciousness, since you cannot rely on the objective existence of other beings.
Grant R Henderson wrote: July 3rd, 2023, 11:14 am It may be contested that this only allows for defining one’s own conscious experience to oneself, but does not allow for defining another's conscious experience, as one cannot become the experience of another subject. However, by granting that another individual is conscious, one is granting an instance of a category that they know to be true within themselves. Thus, one can reasonably infer that other subjects are also conscious if they display characteristics that belong to the same category as themselves as experiencing subjects. One can then progress towards defining consciousness by asking other subjects if a given explanation about their own inner-conscious life applies equally to them. This approach to achieving a general consensus on what constitutes consciousness is no different than how multiple subjects can agree upon the characteristics of a tree that stands in front of them. They compare observations on the matter to achieve general consensus on a model thereof.
The problem is that this requires belief in the objective existence of other subjects which are also contingent beings. So you would be prepared to acknowledge that these beings and the consciousness you infer in them, come into existence and also disappear, cease to exist, and yet you would continue to exist as an objective being, independent of their consciousness. In fact, you as a contingent being might cease to exist, too. Also, you have not existed before, and all of that independent of those other beings' consciousness. We are forced to conclude then that the objective existence of other subjects cancels any possibility of my consciousness being fundamental to their reality and vice versa. As an idealist, you are permanently stuck with solipsism.
Grant R Henderson wrote: July 3rd, 2023, 11:14 am Reality cannot fundamentally be something that isn't consciously imagined when conscious imagination is required to define reality in this way. Therefore, Definition 2 is false, and also presupposes consciousness.
Presupposes which consciousness? If being X and being Y exist objectively, they are both part of objetive reality, independently of whether they are consciously making subjective representations. One can consciously represent (imagine) an old galaxy that has been recently discovered, but we don't expect to believe that this galaxy's objective existence started when one became conscious of it. Its existence does not presuppose anyone's consciousness.
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
#449336
I can't see how consciousness is fundamental to reality. If we humans were the only conscious beings in the universe, and if we destroyed ourselves or got hit by a stray asteroid and go the way of the dinosaurs, won't the reality of universe still exist, only without conscious creatures to observe it? The moon still exists and is objectively real even of I or other conscious creatures are not looking at it. And so for the rest of reality. Our consciousness wasn't needed to bring the universe into reality and the universe my have existed for billions of years before consciousness developed in it. So why do you want to argue that consciousness is fundamental to reality? Consciousness may or may not be fundamental to first person observations of reality, but I can't see how it is fundamental to reality itself. Unless you want to argue that nothing really exists except in our perception. But that's the road to solipsism which has all sorts of problems of its own.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
#451541
Lagayscienza wrote: November 7th, 2023, 12:14 pm
I can't see how consciousness is fundamental to reality,
but I can clearly see that :
DARWINIAN EVOLUTION IS FUNDAMENTAL TO REALITY !!!
:mrgreen:

chewybrian wrote: December 20th, 2023, 7:40 pm
“ We find they are getting less fit in the ancestral niche over time,” Lenski said. “I would argue that citrate users are — or are becoming — a new species.”
Yes, I do agree, they are still becoming a new species. :D

I will be patiently waiting until they finally become a new species.

It is just a matter of time, of course. In a mere few billion years,
these bacteria will evolve into super-intelligent flying monkeys with giant brains.

However, I would argue that Darwinian evolution is about survival of the fittest,
and NOT about becoming less fit in the ancestral niche over time.

The idea of Darwinian evolution has just been experimentally FALSIFIED. :D
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
#451545
You have misquoted me. Please do not do add words to what I have written. It is dishonest.

As for evolution by natural selection, it has never been falsified. You saying so does not make it so. You offer no reasoned argument and no evidence.
Favorite Philosopher: Hume Nietzsche Location: Antipodes
#451546
Lagayscienza wrote: December 20th, 2023, 10:24 pm
As for evolution by natural selection, it has never been falsified. You saying so does not make it so. You offer no reasoned argument and no evidence.
chewybrian wrote: December 20th, 2023, 7:40 pm
The quote below is from an article in the Harvard Gazette called "Evolution in Real Time", about an experiment with bacteria, which seems (to me) to be an example of the Polaroid version of evolution you seek:
After 30,000 generations, researchers noticed something strange. One population had evolved the ability to use a different carbon-based molecule in the solution, called citrate, as a power source.
BREAKING NEWS !!!
One population had evolved the ability to use a different carbon-based molecule!!! WOW :D


From: EVOLUTION NEWS — www. evolutionnews. org

Lenski’s Long-Term Evolution Experiment: 25 Years and Counting

Dr. Richard Lenski is an optimistic man, and always accentuates the positive. In the paper on mutT and mutY, the stress is on how the bacterium has improved with the second mutation. Heavily unemphasized is the ominous fact that one loss of function mutation is "improved" by another loss of function mutation — by degrading a second gene. Anyone who is interested in long-term evolution should see this as a baleful portent for any theory of evolution that relies exclusively on blind, undirected processes.

Still, the important question to ask is, what exactly has Dr. Lenski's project shown us about evolution?

The current issue of Science carries a four-page panegyric (Pennisi 2013) highlighting the career of Richard Lenski on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the beginning of his long-term evolution experiment. In 1988 Lenski started what then seemed a slightly wacky project — to let cultures of the bacterium Eschericia coli grow continuously under his watchful gaze in his lab at Michigan State University. Every day he or one of a parade of grad students and postdocs would transfer a small portion of the culture into fresh media in a new test tube, allowing the bacteria to grow 6-7 generations per day. Twenty-five years later the culture — a cumulative total of trillions of cells — has been going for an astounding 58,000 generations and counting. As the article points out, that’s equivalent to a million years in the lineage of a large animal such as humans. Combined with an ability to track down the exact identities of bacterial mutations at the DNA level, that makes Lenski’s project the best, most detailed source of information on evolutionary processes available anywhere, dwarfing rival lab projects and swamping field studies. That’s an achievement well worth celebrating.

The study has addressed some narrow points of peculiar interest to evolutionary population geneticists, but for proponents of intelligent design the bottom line is that the great majority of even beneficial mutations have turned out to be due to the breaking, degrading, or minor tweaking of pre-existing genes or regulatory regions (Behe 2010). There have been no mutations or series of mutations identified that appear to be on their way to constructing elegant new molecular machinery of the kind that fills every cell. For example, the genes making the bacterial flagellum are consistently turned off by a beneficial mutation (apparently it saves cells energy used in constructing flagella). The suite of genes used to make the sugar ribose is the uniform target of a destructive mutation, which somehow helps the bacterium grow more quickly in the laboratory. Degrading a host of other genes leads to beneficial effects, too.

The Science story references a new paper from Lenski’s lab (Wiser et al. 2013) showing that the bacterial strain continues to improve its growth rate. The chief talking point of the paper is that the rate of improvement follows a curve that will not max out — improvements would continue indefinitely, although at an ever-slowing rate. The natures of the newer beneficial mutations, however, are not reported — whether they, too, are degradative changes, or minor, sideways changes, or truly constructive changes. (I know which way I’ll bet….)

In one supplementary figure the authors show that the increasing growth rate is built on some previously known, beneficial-yet-degradative mutations. Earlier this year Lenski’s lab (Wielgoss et al. 2013) identified a mutation that built on a previous mutation, too, which may prefigure what kind of changes the unidentified mutations in the current paper will turn out to be. Over the course of the project several of the dozen separate strains developed what is called a "mutator" phenotype. In English, that means that the cell’s ability to faithfully copy its DNA is degraded, and its mutation rate has increased some 150-fold. As Lenski’s work showed, that’s due to a mutation (dubbed mutT) that degrades an enzyme that rids the cell of damaged guanine nucleotides, preventing their misincorporation into DNA. Loss of function of a second enzyme (MutY), which removes mispaired bases from DNA, also increases the mutation rate when it occurs by itself. However, when the two mutations, mutT and mutY, occur together, the mutation rate decreases by half of what it is in the presence of mutT alone — that is, it is 75-fold greater than the unmutated case.

www. evolutionnews. org/2013/11/richard_lenskis/


Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
#451548
Lagayscienza wrote: December 20th, 2023, 10:24 pm
As for evolution by natural selection, it has never been falsified.
You saying so does not make it so. You offer no reasoned argument and no evidence.
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland
#451576
Lagayscienza wrote: December 20th, 2023, 10:24 pm
As for evolution by natural selection, it has never been falsified. :evil:

You saying so does not make it so. You offer no reasoned argument and no evidence. :mrgreen:

I have offered more than enough of reasoned arguments based on scientific evidence to you, and to members of this philosophical forum.

However, we all know it only too well that one can drag Lagayscienza by force to water, but trying to force Lagayscienza to drink this water is an entirely different story. And you are this proverbial horse, La Gay Scienza. :D

YES, Darwinian EVOLUTION was experimentally FALSIFIED beyond any reasonable scientific doubt, and reasoned arguments based on scientific evidence are here for all to see:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19198&p=451571#p451571


La Gay Scienza, don't click the above link, keep your head deep in the sand, and continue to spread the mythical Gospel of the random Darwinian evolution nonsense, please !!! :D
Favorite Philosopher: The BUDDHA Location: Zürich, Switzerland

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