Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Sy Borg]

Did you guys know there is a 'vasectomy valve' recently come on the market? Its a tall order, but if men/boys had it fitted and switched off by default, there would be no unwanted pregnancies!

You just switch in on when you actually want to get someone pregnant.

Two things, it's my understanding is that it hasn't been approved by the FDA and all male contraceptives suffer from the "honey, we don't need to use condoms, I've got the valve closed. Yeah, rriiiight!".

Risk v reward.

[Pattern-chaser]

Abortion is a form of birth control. But other methods are quicker, easier and more convenient, and therefore preferred by almost everyone. Abortion is a last resort for all who use it. No-one would subject themselves to an abortion if they could've avoided the need in the first place. But pregnancies occur for all kinds of reasons, requiring all kinds of responses. Sometimes, abortion is the appropriate response.

If someone says X should be illegal because of this or that episode of misuse or abuse, if looked at logically this type of argument means: X is a reasonable option when used appropriately and thus the original emphasis on misuse implies that there is a correct use, ie it is reasonable and should be legal, perhaps with regulation. In other words it isn't an argument that X is unreasonable and should be banned.

Yes, that sums it up well, I think. Abortion is not a trivial matter. Surely no-one would even consider using it if there was a better alternative available? But pregnancies happen, even when they should not, and we then have a choice. We can blame the couple involved for getting pregnant, but that ignores the issue. Or we can look the issue straight 'in the eye'. The issue is, of course, whether abortion should be available. Given that unwanted pregnancies happen...

[LuckyR]

Abortion is a form of birth control. But other methods are quicker, easier and more convenient, and therefore preferred by almost everyone. Abortion is a last resort for all who use it. No-one would subject themselves to an abortion if they could've avoided the need in the first place. But pregnancies occur for all kinds of reasons, requiring all kinds of responses. Sometimes, abortion is the appropriate response.

If someone says X should be illegal because of this or that episode of misuse or abuse, if looked at logically this type of argument means: X is a reasonable option when used appropriately and thus the original emphasis on misuse implies that there is a correct use, ie it is reasonable and should be legal, perhaps with regulation. In other words it isn't an argument that X is unreasonable and should be banned.

Yes, that sums it up well, I think. Abortion is not a trivial matter. Surely no-one would even consider using it if there was a better alternative available? But pregnancies happen, even when they should not, and we then have a choice. We can blame the couple involved for getting pregnant, but that ignores the issue. Or we can look the issue straight 'in the eye'. The issue is, of course, whether abortion should be available. Given that unwanted pregnancies happen...

Of course. The uninformed try to ignore the reality that EVERY form of birth control has a failure rate.

[amorphos_ii]

Ultimately there needs to be a two way choice for if the valve is open or not [both partners must choose on/off]. I can’t imagine that with existing or near future tech it would be too difficult.

I’m mostly pro life btw.

[Sy Borg]

I am pro-life, which is why I am in favour of abortions, favouring life of a sentient woman over a non-sentient blob that resembles a flatworm with a large head.

My pro-life beliefs lead me to support sensible regulations of firearms in urban areas. My pro life stance leads me to support euthanasia, reducing suffering and allowing the old the gracefully get out of the way and give the next generation a chance to thrive.

Since I am pro-life I am opposed to pointless invasions of sovereign countries.

Logically, denying a woman a choice to abort or not, is not pro-life, it is pro-suffering and pro the subjugation of women. The woman suffers from losing the chance to succeed in life. If the child is fostered, then the child suffers from either disruption or physical and sexual abuse. Wards of state are hundreds of times more likely to go to prison as adults than children raised at home. Unwanted children tend to be unloved children.

Most importantly, my pro-life approach means I eat very little meat, while many who claim to be pro-life happily eat animals every day that are vastly more sentient than the foetuses they want to "save".

I appreciate that people now use "pro-life" as shorthand for opposing women the right to control their own bodies. I am just pointing out that the term is deeply misleading and hypocritical - developed as a political wedge, and based on blatant hypocrisy and incorrect assumptions about foetuses.

Early term foetuses are often referred to as "babies", which is absurd. They are more like flatworms than actual babies.

[amorphos_ii]

Sy borg

For guns, I favour more expensive guns with tech which connects to and correlates with a phone app, such to determine user profile and locations! Oh + fingerprinting fire mechanism.

Pro life is death?
For me there are a vast array of different reasons ranging from career motives to rape etc. I don’t see why the morning after pill isn’t enough for accidents and career motives. Naturally a woman may not know they are pregnant, even though they knew they were having sex without contraception. Either way for sure there are valid reasons for abortions, I don’t see the world in black and white.
A foetus has all the genes of a human being, and obviously will grow into one. I propose the path of least suffering and damage always imho. ...and that will nearly always be varied and we don’t have sharia law, so I don’t see why the law cant be limited and mostly leave it up to medical professionals.

I eat meat, and if nothing did then grazing animals would eat all the vegetation, and then there would not be as much oxogen being produced. Not to mention it would be terrible in every way to just have a planet of grass. Again I favour a balanced approach – not b/w.

[Sy Borg]

Still, the cow that ends up in a hamburger experiences exponentially more pain and suffering in death than a first term foetus. What a foetus potentially grows into is less important than what is it right now.

"Pro-life" is a virtue signalling political term, not a valid description of a person's stance. Most so called-pro lifers adopt the usual right-wing package of values. So they are usually against universal healthcare, tighter gun regulation or social security safety nets, which are definitely not "pro-life". They are "pro-death".

Given humanity's population issues, there's a case to be made for those pro-death policies, but it's absurd hypocrisy for those who believe in those policies to describe themselves as "pro-life" just because they oppose abortions.

So-called "pro-lifers" are actually "anti-abortion". They have variable views about life and death, depending on the particular issue. Like everyone else.

And they don't much care about the lives of the animals they eat. They don't eat meat to remove herbivores from the environment. Rather, they pay for meat grown on land converted from nature.

[amorphos_ii]

Sy borg

I don’t see why what the foetus grows into is less important than what it is at early stages of its development. It could be the next Plato or Da vinci, or similar to you or me or indeed any ordinary person [if there is such a thing].

A cow would probably feel far more pain being disembowelled by a pack of wolves or given predator. Or nothing if we didn’t need them and they ceased to exist or ended up a few in zoos.

Hmm well the different camps [right/left etc] approach is backwards, which is why my input is more attuned to balance and then to situations rather than sides.

[Pattern-chaser]

Ultimately there needs to be a two way choice for if the valve is open or not [both partners must choose on/off].

That sounds very equal and acceptable, until we consider the extremes.

What if the male partner is the female's rapist? Can he force her to have their child? Surely not.

Even if the couple are or were a loving partnership, what happens when the partners disagree? When one partner thinks abortion is the most appropriate route, and the other partner doesn't? In such situations, we have to recognise the obvious empirical fact that it is the female who grows and carries the baby, and gives birth. After, it is usually the female who provides child-care too, sometimes even all the way to adulthood. So, in such circumstances, the female's view must take precedence?

I, too, favour a two-way decision, in an ideal world. But in an ideal world, abortion would be quite unnecessary, so...?

[Pattern-chaser]

Pro life is death?

In the real world, "pro-life" sometimes embraces death, of course. How could it be otherwise? Death is the natural complement to life, not an 'evil' to be feared and run away from, in the hope of living forever? We are not such children, I don't think.

For me there are a vast array of different reasons ranging from career motives to rape etc. I don’t see why the morning after pill isn’t enough for accidents and career motives...

Sometimes, a female doesn't know she's pregnant for quite some time. Often, this is because she was taking contraceptive precautions, and didn't realise they had failed. But there could be many other reasons, reasonable reasons that any reasonable person would understand, when they were presented. In practice, abortion needs to be there when other methods (of contraception) fail.

[Sculptor1]

No one who is against the abotion ban wants to force anyone to have an abortion and few are actively in favour of having an abortion.
We just think that its really no ones goddam business aside from the woman who is going to have to carry that burden for 9 months and then look after a dependant for the rest of their lives.
SO give them the freedom, and do not put your damn moral judgement on something that is not your business.

[Sy Borg]

We just think that its really no ones goddam business aside from the woman who is going to have to carry that burden for 9 months and then look after a dependant for the rest of their lives.

SO give them the freedom, and do not put your damn moral judgement on something that is not your business.

Well said. It's a personal and private matter. Mind you, people today seem to feel entitled to opine about all manner of personal issues. Social media is ushering in widespread hyper-sociality. Trouble with hyper-sociality is it ends up being authoritarian, with "eyes" on everything that everyone does. We are seeing the authoritarian aspect grow in today's milieu.

[Sculptor1]

We just think that its really no ones goddam business aside from the woman who is going to have to carry that burden for 9 months and then look after a dependant for the rest of their lives.

SO give them the freedom, and do not put your damn moral judgement on something that is not your business.

Well said. It's a personal and private matter. Mind you, people today seem to feel entitled to opine about all manner of personal issues. Social media is ushering in widespread hyper-sociality. Trouble with hyper-sociality is it ends up being authoritarian, with "eyes" on everything that everyone does. We are seeing the authoritarian aspect grow in today's milieu.

Yes, and the world becomes at a social scale measured like a medieval village, with every village idiots a voice.

[Sy Borg]

We just think that its really no ones goddam business aside from the woman who is going to have to carry that burden for 9 months and then look after a dependant for the rest of their lives.

SO give them the freedom, and do not put your damn moral judgement on something that is not your business.

Well said. It's a personal and private matter. Mind you, people today seem to feel entitled to opine about all manner of personal issues. Social media is ushering in widespread hyper-sociality. Trouble with hyper-sociality is it ends up being authoritarian, with "eyes" on everything that everyone does. We are seeing the authoritarian aspect grow in today's milieu.

Yes, and the world becomes at a social scale measured like a medieval village, with every village idiots a voice.

Back in the day, the dumb didn't have a voice. Their fold wisdom has long been suppressed. So now, a last, let's find out what the people have to say!

Social media now makes it clear what the masses had to say. They have been trained by years of self-interested media to simply follow the next intrusive hot button issue as though it was a glittery object, until another catches their attention. Abortion is a great tool of distraction because anything that involves S-E-X grabs human attention in a vice grip. plus it taps neatly into the natural tensions between sexes.

[amorphos_ii]

Pattern chaser

What if the male partner is the female's rapist? Can he force her to have their child?

I would suggest a phone app which ID’s the female as the one who switched her valve to on [to get pregnant], or indeed a delay between time of switching on to actually on, would suffice.
I also said I believe in balance, so I don’t see why in such a case the woman cannot choose abortion or not!

So, in such circumstances, the female's view must take precedence?

Yes I agree entirely. I think in most cases it should be the females choice, after all the male can just switch his valve off if he doesn’t want to get her pregnant. Almost endless variables of course, but I think one can only hope to get it mostly right, or at least less b/w.

I just don’t think that pro-life is an appropriate term unless we universally mean life, the issue is surely confused enough.

I agree mostly with your latter sentiment, and hopefully future tech can say if women are pregnant or not.
- the vasectomy valve would sort that one out though!

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why is it a matter only for the woman? The man will have to pay for the child just as much as the female, so should have some say in that if e.g. she didn’t take her pill or was irratic about it perhaps hoping to get pregnant when that man has said he wasn’t ready yet. Secondly I think the most important decision or at least equally so, is the child’s. This because they don’t get a say in whether they live of not. Grace towards infants is perhaps one of humanities more salient features!