Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[JackDaydream]

In raising this topic I am thinking primarily of countercultural movements which arose from the 1960s onwards, although bohemian arts may have its roots in romanticism. The subcultures which I am thinking of include the hippy and punk ones, and music is a large part of this but other arts feature. For example, Velvet Underground were a large musical influence but so was the art of Andy Warhol. There are crossovers between art, music and cult fiction, as well as subcultural aesthetics and political radicalism.

Subcultures have often been youth movements and have included black youth in forms such as gangsta rap. However, it is questionable whether there have been many recent innovations since this, nu metal and emo. In music, the demise of record shops may have made a difference and the digital making of music.

However, it may also be about subculture becoming part of mainstream, with punk, goth and the writings of the beat poets, such as Jack Kerouac, and cult fiction becoming retro. The idea of retro and futuristism is combined in the genre of steampunk and there is the youth political protest movements, such as the activism of Greta Thundberg.

But the extent of countercultural and subcultural artistic movements is questionable. So, I am asking about how you see subversive art styles in the twentieth first century. Is the idea of the bohemian outsider and the antihero an artefact of individualism. In the context of the extent of the critique of consumerism in the face of the daunting prospects of climate change what is the future for the alternative arts and aesthetics? To what extent does the artistic imagination matter any longer?

[Count Lucanor]

One thing is sure: counterculture was not subversive, not really subversive. It couldn't subvert the establishment and it was more or less generally understood that it was not meant to do it.

Subversive is taking a rifle and going to the mountains to start a revolution. Everything else is posing, which has a place in art and culture, but still art and culture within the social and political establishment. There was more hope in the avant-garde movement, but it died about 80 years ago.

[brookharry2001]

The future of bohemian arts and subcultural aesthetic styles is difficult to predict with certainty, as cultural trends and movements are constantly evolving and changing. However, it is possible to make some educated guesses based on current trends and societal factors.

Bohemian arts and subcultural aesthetic styles have been around for decades and have undergone various transformations over time.

[JackDaydream]

One thing is sure: counterculture was not subversive, not really subversive. It couldn't subvert the establishment and it was more or less generally understood that it was not meant to do it.

Subversive is taking a rifle and going to the mountains to start a revolution. Everything else is posing, which has a place in art and culture, but still art and culture within the social and political establishment. There was more hope in the avant-garde movement, but it died about 80 years ago.

The big difference between artistic subversion and inciting revolution is that the artistic is about symbolic forms of expression. When the Sex Pistols sang about 'Anarchy in the UK' it was different from a literal form of anarchy. In the punk form of expression in music, clothing and cut'n'paste art in fanzines there was a connection with post modernism, with links between Andy Warhol and Malcolm McClaren.

Art forms are about representation and symbolism but they impact upon consciousnes. The understanding of the subliminal effects of images is recognised in the psychology of advertising. Also, art, especially music may impact on mental states and consciousness significantly.

You say that the avant-garde died about 80 years ago, so you may be excluding so much, including the work of Bob Dylan, David Bowie, the hippy, goth and other music subcultures as well as writers like Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs and Henry Rollins.

There is also the question of what is bohemianism? To some extent it may be about personal expression but it is also about cultural meanings. Also, there is the issue with subversive forms of expression what is about destruction or about creativity, and the interplay of the two.

[JackDaydream]

The future of bohemian arts and subcultural aesthetic styles is difficult to predict with certainty, as cultural trends and movements are constantly evolving and changing. However, it is possible to make some educated guesses based on current trends and societal factors.

Bohemian arts and subcultural aesthetic styles have been around for decades and have undergone various transformations over time.

Thanks for your reply. Having written the thread, I think that the fault with the thread question is that the challenge is to create the bohemian art forms rather than to talk about them. I am not a musician but I do create visual art and do some fiction writing as an amateur. I certainly value innovation and creativity, aa well as thinking about this in philosophy.

With innovation it depends on what creative individuals emerge and the scope of creative potential. To what extent are the possibilities fixed or infinite. I have a friend who is a post-punk musician and he said to me that he thinks that there is not much scope for innovative possibilities in the music scene have been tapped into. This means that much of what musicians are left with is repetition or crossovers. I felt depressed by what he said in relation to the arts in general. I am not convinced that there are no original ideas to be tapped into.

[brookharry2001]

The future of Bohemian arts and subcultural aesthetic styles is unpredictable. However, their values and principles may continue to influence contemporary culture. Sustainable and ethical fashion, as well as social media, may increase their visibility and facilitate the growth of niche communities. The specific manifestations of these cultural forces may change, but their underlying principles are likely to remain relevant.

[Pattern-chaser]

One thing is sure: counterculture was not subversive, not really subversive. It couldn't subvert the establishment and it was more or less generally understood that it was not meant to do it.

In the 60s, our hippy 'counter-culture' really did subvert society. Genuine changes came about; the Vietnam War was ended, for a start. What you seem to be referring to is revolution, and that did not happen, even though some spoke of it longingly. But changes did come about.

[Pattern-chaser]

I am not convinced that there are no original ideas to be tapped into.

You are right to feel so. There is always a new take on something, or a new angle. The newness could turn out to be trivial, and sometimes does, but not always. I am not aware of new developments in music, because I am mainly concerned with plundering the last century's jazz recordings. If I was up-to-the-minute, I could surely tell you what's new and happening.

[JackDaydream]

I am not convinced that there are no original ideas to be tapped into.

You are right to feel so. There is always a new take on something, or a new angle. The newness could turn out to be trivial, and sometimes does, but not always. I am not aware of new developments in music, because I am mainly concerned with plundering the last century's jazz recordings. If I was up-to-the-minute, I could surely tell you what's new and happening.

I do still follow new music, although less so than before lockdown. I have only listened to one 2023 albums, one by a band called Inhaler, the lead singer being the son of Bono in U2. One way which I used to find helpful for finding new bands were the magazines 'Uncut' and 'Mojo' for reviews and, the magazines often come with a disc of tracks from new albums. I am surprised how so many people stop seeking new music after adolescence or university as I feel it to be an ongoing quest and plan to continue indefinitely, as a source of inspiration. I do find all sorts of interesting artists, including rock, psychedelia, indie and folk if I look for new music. I also browse bookshops for new books and like to keep up with movements in the arts and I am convinced that the possibilities for originality and the creative imagination have not been exhausted completely. That would be a cultural or countercultural crisis almost equal to the ecological crisis and to the postmodern idea of 'the end of history'.

[Gertie]

In raising this topic I am thinking primarily of countercultural movements which arose from the 1960s onwards, although bohemian arts may have its roots in romanticism. The subcultures which I am thinking of include the hippy and punk ones, and music is a large part of this but other arts feature. For example, Velvet Underground were a large musical influence but so was the art of Andy Warhol. There are crossovers between art, music and cult fiction, as well as subcultural aesthetics and political radicalism.

Subcultures have often been youth movements and have included black youth in forms such as gangsta rap. However, it is questionable whether there have been many recent innovations since this, nu metal and emo. In music, the demise of record shops may have made a difference and the digital making of music.

However, it may also be about subculture becoming part of mainstream, with punk, goth and the writings of the beat poets, such as Jack Kerouac, and cult fiction becoming retro. The idea of retro and futuristism is combined in the genre of steampunk and there is the youth political protest movements, such as the activism of Greta Thundberg.

But the extent of countercultural and subcultural artistic movements is questionable. So, I am asking about how you see subversive art styles in the twentieth first century. Is the idea of the bohemian outsider and the antihero an artefact of individualism. In the context of the extent of the critique of consumerism in the face of the daunting prospects of climate change what is the future for the alternative arts and aesthetics? To what extent does the artistic imagination matter any longer?

Not sure. One the one hand there are many more media to get your art out onto now, you can potentially have a worldwide following of some counter-culture creator that total less than 100 people. We also generally have more free time, and education to think - ''I could have a go at that, or I could subvert that''. Being creative is no longer just in the realm of possibly for educated, rich men, so there's a post-modern inclusivity of different perspectives which have the chance to emerge, which is itself subversive.

On the other hand, consumerism is so ingrained now that anyone who gets popular enough will either be snaffled up and de-clawed for mainstream consumption, or do it themselves. Street creators aren't immune to that, look at where punk and gangsta rappers have ended up. And the hippy generation are today's boomers, with their mortgages paid off, moaning about their pensions and decrying youngsters who can only dream of their opportunities as lazy whiners. Well some of them, not all of course.

But still, there's a lot of interesting stuff going on, but there's a knowingness in artistic movements now I think, which makes idealistic subversion difficult to sustain.

[JackDaydream]

In raising this topic I am thinking primarily of countercultural movements which arose from the 1960s onwards, although bohemian arts may have its roots in romanticism. The subcultures which I am thinking of include the hippy and punk ones, and music is a large part of this but other arts feature. For example, Velvet Underground were a large musical influence but so was the art of Andy Warhol. There are crossovers between art, music and cult fiction, as well as subcultural aesthetics and political radicalism.

Subcultures have often been youth movements and have included black youth in forms such as gangsta rap. However, it is questionable whether there have been many recent innovations since this, nu metal and emo. In music, the demise of record shops may have made a difference and the digital making of music.

However, it may also be about subculture becoming part of mainstream, with punk, goth and the writings of the beat poets, such as Jack Kerouac, and cult fiction becoming retro. The idea of retro and futuristism is combined in the genre of steampunk and there is the youth political protest movements, such as the activism of Greta Thundberg.

But the extent of countercultural and subcultural artistic movements is questionable. So, I am asking about how you see subversive art styles in the twentieth first century. Is the idea of the bohemian outsider and the antihero an artefact of individualism. In the context of the extent of the critique of consumerism in the face of the daunting prospects of climate change what is the future for the alternative arts and aesthetics? To what extent does the artistic imagination matter any longer?

Not sure. One the one hand there are many more media to get your art out onto now, you can potentially have a worldwide following of some counter-culture creator that total less than 100 people. We also generally have more free time, and education to think - ''I could have a go at that, or I could subvert that''. Being creative is no longer just in the realm of possibly for educated, rich men, so there's a post-modern inclusivity of different perspectives which have the chance to emerge, which is itself subversive.

On the other hand, consumerism is so ingrained now that anyone who gets popular enough will either be snaffled up and de-clawed for mainstream consumption, or do it themselves. Street creators aren't immune to that, look at where punk and gangsta rappers have ended up. And the hippy generation are today's boomers, with their mortgages paid off, moaning about their pensions and decrying youngsters who can only dream of their opportunities as lazy whiners. Well some of them, not all of course.

But still, there's a lot of interesting stuff going on, but there's a knowingness in artistic movements now I think, which makes idealistic subversion difficult to sustain.

Consumerism may definitely be an enemy of the subversive, especially how so many music bands were
viewed as having been ruined after they became popular and signed with major record labels. There was also the rise of 'designer punk', which was so different from the original concept. The idea of the 'strange' has also captured the popular imagination so much that the art of Van Gogh and the movement of 'Outsider Art, or 'Art Brut' has become a commodity esteemed within the mainstream art culture.

The rise of the internet and media sites is likely to have an impact, giving access to people who may have not had access previously. For example, so many more people have become authors by being able to self-publish on the internet. However, the whole digital revolution may be a little at odds with the ideas of alternative lifestyles. It would be difficult for people to form travelling or alternative communities with significant impact if cut off from the world of the internet. It would also be difficult to do this without financial resources to live in the spirit of utopian values or the underground lifestyles of the beat generation authors, or the original hippies.

[Count Lucanor]

One thing is sure: counterculture was not subversive, not really subversive. It couldn't subvert the establishment and it was more or less generally understood that it was not meant to do it.

Subversive is taking a rifle and going to the mountains to start a revolution. Everything else is posing, which has a place in art and culture, but still art and culture within the social and political establishment. There was more hope in the avant-garde movement, but it died about 80 years ago.

The big difference between artistic subversion and inciting revolution is that the artistic is about symbolic forms of expression. When the Sex Pistols sang about 'Anarchy in the UK' it was different from a literal form of anarchy. In the punk form of expression in music, clothing and cut'n'paste art in fanzines there was a connection with post modernism, with links between Andy Warhol and Malcolm McClaren.

Art forms are about representation and symbolism but they impact upon consciousnes. The understanding of the subliminal effects of images is recognised in the psychology of advertising. Also, art, especially music may impact on mental states and consciousness significantly.

I’m aware of the importance of culture in shaping society, and particularly of artistic practices reshaping our aesthetic experience of the world, my point was about the so called subversive element in what is generally known as counterculture. Of course one can think of subversion, symbolically speaking, but often those who have embraced the term counterculture, pretend that it really implied a political rebellion. That’s evidently not the case.

You say that the avant-garde died about 80 years ago, so you may be excluding so much, including the work of Bob Dylan, David Bowie, the hippy, goth and other music subcultures as well as writers like Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs and Henry Rollins.

The avant-garde movement appeared in Europe in the first quarter of the 20th century. I’m aligned with those who see this as the original and only avant-garde movement worthy of that name. None of those you are listing belongs to that time and place, in fact a consumer society and mass culture was already well-established by the time these people attracted attention. Not to downplay their cultural relevance, but the avant-garde movement did have some strong commitments with revolutionary politics.

There is also the question of what is bohemianism? To some extent it may be about personal expression but it is also about cultural meanings. Also, there is the issue with subversive forms of expression what is about destruction or about creativity, and the interplay of the two.

Bohemian, hipster and other unconventional social expressions can be seen as subcultures within the dominant culture, part of the status quo.

[JackDaydream]

One thing is sure: counterculture was not subversive, not really subversive. It couldn't subvert the establishment and it was more or less generally understood that it was not meant to do it.

Subversive is taking a rifle and going to the mountains to start a revolution. Everything else is posing, which has a place in art and culture, but still art and culture within the social and political establishment. There was more hope in the avant-garde movement, but it died about 80 years ago.

The big difference between artistic subversion and inciting revolution is that the artistic is about symbolic forms of expression. When the Sex Pistols sang about 'Anarchy in the UK' it was different from a literal form of anarchy. In the punk form of expression in music, clothing and cut'n'paste art in fanzines there was a connection with post modernism, with links between Andy Warhol and Malcolm McClaren.

Art forms are about representation and symbolism but they impact upon consciousnes. The understanding of the subliminal effects of images is recognised in the psychology of advertising. Also, art, especially music may impact on mental states and consciousness significantly.

I’m aware of the importance of culture in shaping society, and particularly of artistic practices reshaping our aesthetic experience of the world, my point was about the so called subversive element in what is generally known as counterculture. Of course one can think of subversion, symbolically speaking, but often those who have embraced the term counterculture, pretend that it really implied a political rebellion. That’s evidently not the case.

You say that the avant-garde died about 80 years ago, so you may be excluding so much, including the work of Bob Dylan, David Bowie, the hippy, goth and other music subcultures as well as writers like Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs and Henry Rollins.

The avant-garde movement appeared in Europe in the first quarter of the 20th century. I’m aligned with those who see this as the original and only avant-garde movement worthy of that name. None of those you are listing belongs to that time and place, in fact a consumer society and mass culture was already well-established by the time these people attracted attention. Not to downplay their cultural relevance, but the avant-garde movement did have some strong commitments with revolutionary politics.

There is also the question of what is bohemianism? To some extent it may be about personal expression but it is also about cultural meanings. Also, there is the issue with subversive forms of expression what is about destruction or about creativity, and the interplay of the two.

Bohemian, hipster and other unconventional social expressions can be seen as subcultures within the dominant culture, part of the status quo.

There may be inadequacies in seeing countercultural arts movements as revolution in themselves even though they influence political consciousness and the political impacts upon the arts. It is complex because none of these spheres exist in isolation. The sixties countercultural movement may have been a whole new paradigm from the movements of postmodernism and many other developments in culture. It is also connected to the changes in the culture from generation to generation and the 1960s arts may have been a revision of thinking and seeing in the human imagination. The aesthetics may be at the core of imaginative or mythic properties of culture and its philosophy.

On the topic of the countercultural and generations, I went to see a punk band, Plague UK, a punk band perform in a local record shop recently. The band have been going since 1976. I was surprised that the majority of the audience were 60ish or more. I talked to a couple and the husband had got back into punk after retirement and they had travelled all the way from Chelmsford to London for the event. Also, many of the audience knew each other because they meet at many gigs. So, it seems that a punk subculture still exists even though it is not a subculture. In addition, the spirit and aesthetics of punk probably influence the mainstream as well as alternative music, arts and fashion.

[Count Lucanor]

There may be inadequacies in seeing countercultural arts movements as revolution in themselves even though they influence political consciousness and the political impacts upon the arts. It is complex because none of these spheres exist in isolation. The sixties countercultural movement may have been a whole new paradigm from the movements of postmodernism and many other developments in culture. It is also connected to the changes in the culture from generation to generation and the 1960s arts may have been a revision of thinking and seeing in the human imagination. The aesthetics may be at the core of imaginative or mythic properties of culture and its philosophy.

I tend to think it's the other way around: countercultural movements are the effect and expression of social changes, not the cause of them.

[Abstract Landscape]

subversive art styles in the twentieth first century. Is the idea of the bohemian outsider and the antihero an artefact of individualism. In the context of the extent of the critique of consumerism in the face of the daunting prospects of climate change what is the future for the alternative arts and aesthetics? To what extent does the artistic imagination matter any longer?

The Individual Romantic Rock and Roll Counterculture Artist Lives!

Is the current underground counterculture in the spotlight and as noticable like it was in 1968, or in the “Indie” era of the mid 1980s with alternative rock, independent cinema, etc? Counterculture has at times been in large part Youth culture. The “Over 30 adults” haven’t traditionally been invited to the Youth party so it’s hard to know how vibrant the real underground scene is. It's range, it's effectiveness, it's polis isn't viewed until history looks back on the generation in hindsight. I don't mean to be rude or indelicate but maybe we're just old and it's hard to see contemporary arts.


Escaping the Oppressive Culture Tower, the illusion of social media

All generations of artists have to battle against their contemporary co-opting forces.
“You do you” is a current saying which champions that Romantic and existential ideal of the Individual being authentic. Affirmations of a creed like the Romanitic “Truth Beauty Love” or “You do You” may lose power in the over amplified, trendy lifestyle generators like instagram text posts and Twitter generated catch-phrases. Ironically social media waters it all down. It’s social media that co-opts the urge of the authentic individual and transforms it into a sheeple commodified propaganda slogan.

Even if they never listen to rock and roll, anyone can buy an already “distressed” Woodstock concert tee shirt at a big box store. You can order clothes online and dress like a surfer, you can learn to talk like a surfer, you can adopt personal and political attributes of a surfer, but if you don’t surf, you don't surf. ..You ain’t punk. Adam Curtis’ Century of the Self episode 3 gets into how Stanford Research Institute surveyed the American public in the early 1970s to look into the counterculture movement. "Hippies were identified as having a lifestyle. Counterculture was then co-opted, assimilated back into the Culture through consumerism, turned into the commodifiable “Lifestyle”. That’s the fancy way of understanding “selling out” without knowing they were selling.


60 year old Punk Rockers are retired and touring again in London, San Francisco…

I’m pretty old, in my early 50s, married, kid, and I had lost touch with rock n roll as a counterculture force, a lifelong passion of mine. I found myself disconnected from the underground, stuck floating in the currents of pop culture suburbia. I aimed to reconnect and find the current underground, and was successful and I see it is alive and well. A local punk band recently had a concert on a subway train car. Somewhere in middle america a punk band had a concert as a record release party by renting a Denny's as it was the cheapest venue. I’ve seen other old dudes like me at some of the “underground counterculture” concerts here in San Francisco and Oakland.

Retro is embraced. Like the 60 year punk rockers mentioned above in this thread, one of the best “early punk” 60s bands Sonics “Have Love Will Travel” have recently had shows and made videos. Face melting psych rock heavy bands of today like Earthless cover little known early underground rock gems like the 70s band the Groundhogs’ song “Cherry Red”. Gothic Romantic poet Novalis will open for gothic bands Bauhaus and the Cure at Cruel World music fest.


The authentic Artist creating new work is by nature against oppressive culture, an integral part of rebellion and rebellion is at the core of the human desire for freedom.

I believe the artistic urge is inherently counterculture because to be authentic it is inevitably counter to the existing mass culture, otherwise it's not novel and not authentic. (it might be influenced by or similar too but if the art isn't personal, it's not art it's design). If it is not novel it is a copy, merely a re-imaging of the already accedpted arts of the culture power structures.

Is freedom a moral issue? I just listened to the Partially Examined Life’s podcast on Schiller, arguing that the arts facilitate abstract thinking, and abstract thinking (or maybe critical thinking) lead to developing the moral. The arts are a spearhead for freedom, free thinking.

My paranoid critique (nod to Dali) is that the power hungry cultural leaders, the fat cat politcians intentionally limit the arts at least in USA, defund and undermine arts education, as an early detourant against future free thinkers, activists, who might challenge issues, the system and therefore the corrupt fat cats' wealth. They won't allow the counterculture arts to thrive economically or socially or politically because it threatens their wealth and power (The are opporating in survival mode not a moral mode).

Counterculture is continually co-opted by big tech / big money, assimilated, to undermine it's counter force but the Individual is still here, free and making art and making moves.