”value” wrote:Logic is applicable to 'the world' but the why of the world cannot be contained within that world.
Why not?
Without logic, we have no means to “make sense”.
Without logic, everything becomes meaningless gobbledygook (“non-sense”).
Without logic, we have no chance at rationally understanding anything, …this includes the “why” of this world.
”value” wrote:1. the universe magically always existed
”RJG” wrote:1. There is nothing "magical" (logically impossible) with an always existing (infinite) universe. Logic does not deny the possibility of infinite. In fact, an infinite universe is the ONLY logical possibility and explanation
”value” wrote:That is invalid. The idea of infinite is merely a potential infinity that is dependent on the begin that is introduced by logic.
Not so. An “infinite” universe, although it may seem unpalatable to many of us, is the
ONLY logical solution. If the universe exists then logically it is infinite. There is no other logical explanation.
"You can't start a universe without a universe to start in". Without pre-existing Time/Matter/Space, there could be no universe. If it takes a "big bang" to start a universe, then consider this:
- Without the pre-existence of 'time' there can be no "beginning" (or "happening") of the big bang.
Without the pre-existence of some-thing ('matter') there is no-"thing" to bang.
Without the pre-existence of some-place ('space') there is no "where" to bang this no-"thing".
The universe has "always existed" ...ain't no way to avoid this simple truth!
Your suggestion to use "non-logic" (non-rationality; non-sense) in lieu of logic to explain the existence of our universe, is not very rational (imo). Only those that believe in “magic” (logical impossibilities) can be convinced of a non-logical explanation.
Remember,
"There is nothing more objectively certain in all of reality than that of a “logical impossibility”. Consider the following:
- 1. If time exists, then it has ‘always’ (infinitely; permanently) existed, as it is logically impossible for time to exist outside of itself. [X<X is logically impossible]. It is logically impossible for there to be a “beginning” of time (a time before time). (Hint: “beginnings” don’t exist in the absence of time!). Therefore, if time exists, it has always (infinitely) existed.
2. If the universe is the container of everything, then it can only exist ‘infinitely’ (uncontained; unbounded), as it is logically impossible for a ‘finite’ universe to contain ALL finite objects. (Hint: it cannot contain itself!). [X<X is logically impossible]. Therefore, if the universe exists, it can only exist ‘infinitely’.
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one more...
3. If the universe contains all of space, then it is logically impossible for the universe to expand, as this would imply that space exists outside of itself (i.e. there is a space in which to expand into). So again,
X<X is logically impossible. An expanding universe is logically impossible.