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Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
#436567
"The Quantum Poker," #7:

After reading my opinion of quantum physics, someone asked me what I thought of atoms. I often think about that problem. Atoms are a childish concept with about as much reality as Santa Claus, except arguably for the instances of noble gases. One could vaguely say atoms exist in molecules with some kind of meaning, but it's totally meaningless with reference to ions, metals, and plasma.

The public assumes such 'atoms' exist in reality, and scientists have not been helpful in improving the misconception. To clarify the analogy, even if one finds children sitting in Santa Claus' lap at Christmas, it is rather naive to say Santa Claus exists based on that evidence. Similarly, as I will explain, it would be most sensible to consider noble gases as elements that can exist as molecules with only one nucleus, rather than as atoms. I will explain this very carefully, because even for most scientists, atoms obviously 'exist,' citing noble gases as 'evidence,' just as the instinct of 'object permanence,' also found in higher-order animals, is still naively assumed obviously true.

For object permanence, Plutarch raised the issue for Theseus' ship all the way back in the 2nd century BC (the ship has all its timbers slowly replaced as they decay, but is still considered the same ship). That dismissed the Platonic idea of form 2,200 years ago, yet the majority of the human race still persists with maintaining naive notions of atoms, indistinguishable in basis from Democritus' thought in 460BC It took a century for Plutarch to point out the fundamental problem with Plato's concept of ideal form. Over 2,000 years later, we are still waiting for the human race to catch up.

It seems pretty clear from modern philosophy that words merely refer to states and events with clusters of properties. 'Objects,' per se, are only one of these properties. Objects and atoms don't really exist in physical reality: they are properties we assign to observations in our attempt to make sense of them, and that is all. With respect to atoms, this is particularly significant, because there is no direct correlation between atoms and the set of observations to which the term refers. Atoms are purely imaginary concepts that would be nice to exist if they did, for which reason I believe the parallel to Santa Claus is particularly appropriate.

THE 'ATOMIC BOMB'
These are either fission bombs or fusion bombs, and together should be referred to as 'nuclear bombs.'.

THE 'ATOMIC TABLE'
The periodic table really describes the properties of nuclei in a somewhat loose manner, categorizing isotopes together in a slightly arbitrary fashion. The archaic concept of 'atomic weight' persists, when it should have been replaced by 'atomic mass,' which has long been defined as the mass of nuclei, not atoms (so it should be called 'nuclear mass', not 'atonic mass').
Because of such shoddiness, most childishly thinks of the elements in the periodic table in terms of atoms, and even refer to the periodic table the 'atomic table,' when its definition clearly states it is of elements, not atoms.

'ATOMIC WEIGHT' AND 'ATOMIC MASS'
Similarly, the concept of 'atomic weight' is fundamentally flawed. Electrons have mass, but atomic weight is defined for elements whatever their state, despite dissolved ions not having electrons. There's also 'atomic mass,' which is actually 'nuclear mass,' because it doesn't include the electrons.
Atomic weight has traditionally included electrons because the weight of metals would otherwise be substantially off. What's most amazing to me is how many people insulted my knowledge while assuming mass and weight are identical when I first brought up the concept of atomic weight.

'ISOLATED ATOMS'
Quantum physicists have been required to qualify their statements about 'isolated atoms' as being about 'neutral atoms,' for exactly the reasons I have stated. I have made a valid scientific statement.
All the complaints I have received, even from people thinking themselves experts in the field, portray a complete ignorance of the philosophy of science, which states, observations of states and events must be based on a sound understanding of their premises for empirical knowledge to be attained.
#436571
ernestm wrote: March 2nd, 2023, 12:41 am "The Quantum Poker," #7:

After reading my opinion of quantum physics, someone asked me what I thought of atoms. I often think about that problem. Atoms are a childish concept with about as much reality as Santa Claus, except arguably for the instances of noble gases. One could vaguely say atoms exist in molecules with some kind of meaning, but it's totally meaningless with reference to ions, metals, and plasma.
I object to the use of the word "childish" and would use the word "early" concept.

If in the britannica encyclopedia (https://www.britannica.com/science/atom) we find this explanation:
atom, smallest unit into which matter can be divided without the release of electrically charged particles. It also is the smallest unit of matter that has the characteristic properties of a chemical element. As such, the atom is the basic building block of chemistry.

Most of the atom is empty space. The rest consists of a positively charged nucleus of protons and neutrons surrounded by a cloud of negatively charged electrons. The nucleus is small and dense compared with the electrons, which are the lightest charged particles in nature. Electrons are attracted to any positive charge by their electric force; in an atom, electric forces bind the electrons to the nucleus. etc.
We can hardly speak of a childish concept, however misleading one considers it. It has no place in a discussion, if we are to exchange ideas in a respectable manner.
Favorite Philosopher: Alan Watts Location: Germany
#436573
Stoppelmann wrote: March 2nd, 2023, 1:40 am
ernestm wrote: March 2nd, 2023, 12:41 am "The Quantum Poker," #7:

After reading my opinion of quantum physics, someone asked me what I thought of atoms. I often think about that problem. Atoms are a childish concept with about as much reality as Santa Claus, except arguably for the instances of noble gases. One could vaguely say atoms exist in molecules with some kind of meaning, but it's totally meaningless with reference to ions, metals, and plasma.
I object to the use of the word "childish" and would use the word "early" concept.

If in the britannica encyclopedia (https://www.britannica.com/science/atom) we find this explanation:
atom, smallest unit into which matter can be divided without the release of electrically charged particles. It also is the smallest unit of matter that has the characteristic properties of a chemical element. As such, the atom is the basic building block of chemistry.

Most of the atom is empty space. The rest consists of a positively charged nucleus of protons and neutrons surrounded by a cloud of negatively charged electrons. The nucleus is small and dense compared with the electrons, which are the lightest charged particles in nature. Electrons are attracted to any positive charge by their electric force; in an atom, electric forces bind the electrons to the nucleus. etc.
We can hardly speak of a childish concept, however misleading one considers it. It has no place in a discussion, if we are to exchange ideas in a respectable manner.
That's definitely wrong. Neutrons can be divided without the resulting things having charge. Ive found many such problems in the Encyclopedia Brittanica. I tried raising them but its a fiscally-driven institution, and doesn't really have any authority it recognizes as superior enough to correct it.
#436574
Stoppelmann wrote: March 2nd, 2023, 1:40 am
ernestm wrote: March 2nd, 2023, 12:41 am "The Quantum Poker," #7:

After reading my opinion of quantum physics, someone asked me what I thought of atoms. I often think about that problem. Atoms are a childish concept with about as much reality as Santa Claus, except arguably for the instances of noble gases. One could vaguely say atoms exist in molecules with some kind of meaning, but it's totally meaningless with reference to ions, metals, and plasma.
I object to the use of the word "childish" and would use the word "early" concept.

If in the britannica encyclopedia (https://www.britannica.com/science/atom) we find this explanation:
atom, smallest unit into which matter can be divided without the release of electrically charged particles. It also is the smallest unit of matter that has the characteristic properties of a chemical element. As such, the atom is the basic building block of chemistry.

Most of the atom is empty space. The rest consists of a positively charged nucleus of protons and neutrons surrounded by a cloud of negatively charged electrons. The nucleus is small and dense compared with the electrons, which are the lightest charged particles in nature. Electrons are attracted to any positive charge by their electric force; in an atom, electric forces bind the electrons to the nucleus. etc.
We can hardly speak of a childish concept, however misleading one considers it. It has no place in a discussion, if we are to exchange ideas in a respectable manner.
Also, incidentally, the fusion of helium 3 with hydrogen creates free neutrons. You are welcome to write your own definitions of an 'atom,' but as you are relying on authorities that are demonstrably wrong, there's no point in further discussion of it.
#436580
ernestm wrote: March 2nd, 2023, 2:06 am That's definitely wrong. Neutrons can be divided without the resulting things having charge. Ive found many such problems in the Encyclopedia Brittanica. I tried raising them but its a fiscally-driven institution, and doesn't really have any authority it recognizes as superior enough to correct it.
Thank you for successfully ignoring the point, which is that the expression “childish” is not appropriate. This seems to be a common problem with academics with tunnel vision that fail to appreciate the usefulness of a term in another context, and ignore all other aspects.

Considering the historical implications of how Western scientists accepted the concept of the atom in broad outline from the 1600s until about 1900, which originated with Greek philosophers in the 5th century BCE, it is hardly surprising that it survives today. If they care, most people are aware that the speculation about a hard, indivisible fundamental particle of nature was replaced slowly by a scientific theory supported by experiment and mathematical deduction. It had been more than 2,000 years before modern physicists realized that the atom is indeed divisible and that it is not hard, solid, or immutable.

It is still not “childish” to use the concept in certain contexts.
Favorite Philosopher: Alan Watts Location: Germany
#436716
Consul wrote: March 3rd, 2023, 1:32 pm Image

"Researchers have broken the record for the highest resolution image ever captured of individual atoms, creating a shot that is 'zoomed in' some 100 million times, as pictured."

Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... atoms.html
Several people have sent that. If you read the caption under the photo, you will see it is not of atoms, it is of nuclei in a crystal lattice. It is not a captured image. It is a generated image from electron deflection produced by a rather complicated AI engine.

For which reason I have rather given up saying anything on science, because even Scietific American is publishing post-truth narrative, which means, it changes what it says from truth to capture more media attention. When post-truth narrative has reached the Scientific American, and people are quoting it at me to say Im wrong, it's just got pointless saying anything at all. The consensus is that stupid remarks are true. Why say anything.
#436759
ernestm wrote: March 3rd, 2023, 7:46 pm Several people have sent that. If you read the caption under the photo, you will see it is not of atoms, it is of nuclei in a crystal lattice. It is not a captured image. It is a generated image from electron deflection produced by a rather complicated AI engine.
Of course, taking pictures of single atoms is technologically much more complicated and more indirect than taking ones of golf balls. Nonetheless, that high-tech image of atoms does represent real things.
Location: Germany
#436760
ernestm wrote: March 2nd, 2023, 12:41 am It seems pretty clear from modern philosophy that words merely refer to states and events with clusters of properties. 'Objects,' per se, are only one of these properties.
There are ontologists who claim that objects or substances are nothing over and above bundles or clusters of properties that lack a substantial substratum. I disagree with them, but to defend the antireductionist substance-attribute/object-property ontology is not necessarily to claim that molecules, atoms, and elementary particles are ontologically irreducible objects or substances in their own right. For they might all be property clusters whose substantial substrata are regions of space (conceived as a substance) or parts of a space-pervading "aether" (conceived as a universal world-stuff).
Location: Germany
#436761
ernestm wrote: March 2nd, 2023, 12:41 amObjects and atoms don't really exist in physical reality: they are properties we assign to observations in our attempt to make sense of them, and that is all. With respect to atoms, this is particularly significant, because there is no direct correlation between atoms and the set of observations to which the term refers. Atoms are purely imaginary concepts that would be nice to exist if they did, for which reason I believe the parallel to Santa Claus is particularly appropriate.
Obviously, you're speaking from the point of view of scientific antirealism about "theoretical terms" that refer to unobservable "theoretical entities".

Theoretical Terms in Science: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/theo ... s-science/

I'm a scientific realist denying that atoms and elementary particles are scientific fictions.

QUOTE>
"Now a scientific antirealist might say that all the evidence shows is that the world is just as if there were electrons, neutrinos, etc. The postulation of them, according to the antirealist, is a sort of fairy story which is not to be believed; it is there just so that we can put some order into our observations and predict fresh observations. My reaction to this is to express incredulity. Is it not implausible that things should be merely 'as if', at least on a holistic scale? Certainly there are isolated analogies that legitimately enable us to talk in terms of 'as if'. We can of course say such a thing as that an inductor and a capacitor in series oscillate electrically just as if the oscillations were mechanical and the inductor was a heavy mass and the capacitor a spring. Certainly there are these isolated analogies that enable us to talk merely of 'as if'. Nevertheless it is most unplausible that the laboratory phenomena taken as a whole, or at any rate over a wide scope are just as if there were the theoretical entitites. Would not rejection of full-blooded realism about the theoretical entities be as bad as if Sherlock Holmes were to say that the footprint on the rose bed, the blood in the library, the disappearance of the butler, etc., was just as if there had been a murder? Admittedly Sherlock Holmes may ultimately come to grip the murderer by the collar, and we cannot do anything like that with electrons, neutrinos or curved space-time. The realist can counter this objection by saying that there are theoretical reasons why we cannot grip the theoretical entities (metaphorically) by the collar, and so can accept one part of the analogy while reasonably rejecting another part of it. Our knowledge of the physics and physiology of perception explains why we cannot perceive individual atoms or electrons."
(pp. 54-5)

"My argument for the reality of the unobservable entities postulated by theoretical physics is that it is too much to believe that the complex and messy regularities – or non-regularities – on the observational level are just as if the theoretical entities exist. Postulation of the theoretical entities give a simpler and aesthetically more satisfying picture of the world. Taking simplicity and aesthetic satisfyingness as characteristic of a good explanation, the argument could be subsumed under the notion of 'argument to the best explanation'. In the same way, Sherlock Holmes believed that the butler was the murderer because this gave the only simple explanation of the observed evidence. Any other proposed explanation would strike him and the police as complicated and far-fetched – in short, improbable.

A variant of this argument (for the existence of theoretical entities) has been put in terms of the success of theories. This variant does not seem to me importantly different from the previous argument, because the success of theories is in terms of making predictions (sometimes indirectly by explaining the predictive success of less general theories) and such success brings with it an increase in the circumstantial evidence for the literal truth of the theories. However, this variant is worth mentioning because Van Fraassen gives another explanation for the success of theories. He needs to do this because on his own view he is precluded from explanation in terms of the literal truth of theories. Van Fraassen's explanation is that theories survive in competition with other theories, and so those that survive crucial experiments or observations remain while others get discarded. This Darwinian sort of explanation does not seem to me to deal with the question of why the world should be as if the theoretical entities really existed. According to the realist the messiness of the observational level is offset by the discovery of an underlying simplicity."
(pp. 60-1)

(Smart, J. J. C. Our Place in the Universe: A Metaphysical Discussion. Oxford: Blackwell, 1989.)
<QUOTE
Location: Germany
#436796
It seems pretty clear from modern philosophy that words merely refer to states and events with clusters of properties. 'Objects,' per se, are only one of these properties. Objects and atoms don't really exist in physical reality: they are properties we assign to observations in our attempt to make sense of them, and that is all.
I think it would be more appropriate to say, in this context, words refer to observations and their explanations.

One explanation being that particular objects exist and have particular properties which result in particular observations of objects, states and events.

Another explanation would be only properties which are particular states and events exist, which we observe and explain in terms of objects with properties, as above. Which invites the question what are these states and properties of?
#436797
I don't understand the objection to the idea of atoms. Ernest, do you have thoughts on the "ground zero" of physical reality, if not atoms and subatomic particles?

The standard model and periodic table have clearly been successful in a practical sense, noting that each is like a simple "two dimensional" summary of known reality. Behind the standard model lie various 'colours', spins, charges and whatnot and each element in the periodic table has multiple isotopes, with cesium and xenon each having 36 isotopes.
#436847
This is from a Wittgensteinian perspective on quantum physics, now reviewed and endorsed by three people on PhDs, which I can't share on this forum because it's considered self promotion despite me being retired and giving it away free.

Being from a Wittgensteinian perspective, there isn't anything I can say on scientific realism or other religouss views.

I can definitely say that a trained AI does not produce anything one could call a 'taken picture,' and the pictures were of nucleii not atoms, and really beyond that I have to regard your explanations and opinions as useful beliefs to you. But not knowledge from a Wittgensteinian perspective. Whatever you regard the value of your own beliefs, they are certainly not of any value to this article.

I hope you enjoy your beliefs.
#436849
Sy Borg wrote: March 4th, 2023, 7:40 pm I don't understand the objection to the idea of atoms. Ernest, do you have thoughts on the "ground zero" of physical reality, if not atoms and subatomic particles?

The standard model and periodic table have clearly been successful in a practical sense, noting that each is like a simple "two dimensional" summary of known reality. Behind the standard model lie various 'colours', spins, charges and whatnot and each element in the periodic table has multiple isotopes, with cesium and xenon each having 36 isotopes.
Ptolemy's model also successfully predicted the position of stars in the sky, but when I raised that, Borg, you said it was obviously wrong and how stupid I was. However much you could substantiate the standard model's use of particles, or the periodic table's usefulness, you already invalidated your own argument with regard to using archaic concepts for physics.

So there is no way I can take anything you argue seriously any more.
#436851
Gertie wrote: March 4th, 2023, 6:08 pm
It seems pretty clear from modern philosophy that words merely refer to states and events with clusters of properties. 'Objects,' per se, are only one of these properties. Objects and atoms don't really exist in physical reality: they are properties we assign to observations in our attempt to make sense of them, and that is all.
I think it would be more appropriate to say, in this context, words refer to observations and their explanations.

One explanation being that particular objects exist and have particular properties which result in particular observations of objects, states and events.

Another explanation would be only properties which are particular states and events exist, which we observe and explain in terms of objects with properties, as above. Which invites the question what are these states and properties of?
Wrom W.s point of view, states and events ARE observations, and there's no need to qualify them further, because the only states and events that exist are the ones we observe.

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