Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Pattern-chaser]

In this context, I think "emerge" simply means "becomes apparent", nothing more than that. And, with this meaning in mind, it seems a lot clearer that the question itself is the problem. I think we're asking the wrong question. If we wish to pursue this line of reasoning, should we not ask, "how could something non-physical 'emerge'?"?

Perhaps we should spend some time to agree on what physical and non-physical things are. We also need to agree on what we mean by emergent.

OK: "physical is easy: composed of matter. [Although there is energy, which is perhaps most usefully seen as being 'physical', even though it is apparently non-physical.] "Non-physical" is almost as easy: that which is not composed of matter (or energy?).

"Emergent" is more fun, but probably best dealt with as below...

...to me, mind cannot be emergent and is the fundamental entity in reality.

Then I offer your question, in reverse: from where does the physical 'emerge'? From the non-physical, perhaps? Is that what you're saying?

To me, emergence is a concept that deals with a phenomenon in which a system has a set of properties that its parts don't. There are two sorts of emergence though, namely strong and weak. The properties of the system are not functions of the properties of parts in strong emergence whereas the properties of the system are functions of properties of parts in weak emergence. An example of weak emergence is a car. An example of strong emergence is consciousness. I have to say that I don't believe in strong emergence and I have an argument against it but that is a separate topic.

Emergence is a slightly confusing concept. I find it easier if we take a step backward in our reasoning, and look instead at networks. A network comprises nodes and connections. Dualism and reductionism push us toward thinking that the network can be understood purely in terms of its nodes. It cannot, any more than it can be understood purely in terms of its connections. More to the point, emergence is often (usually? invariably?) a function of a network's connections, which are discarded and lost when we look only at the nodes.

This deviation from the 'normal' way in which we look at things makes emergence appear complicated, and it is. But only because we over-simplify in the first place. If we accepted that no network can be understood without understanding both its nodes and its connections, then we would realise how and why we are "over-simplifying".

Understanding the network is complicated. It requires that we understand both the nodes and the connections, and the way(s) in which they interact. Because we normally do much less than this, when we come to look at emergence, it appears complicated by comparison.

[Pattern-chaser]

Emergence is a slightly confusing concept. I find it easier if we take a step backward in our reasoning, and look instead at networks. A network comprises nodes and connections. Dualism and reductionism push us toward thinking that the network can be understood purely in terms of its nodes. It cannot, any more than it can be understood purely in terms of its connections. More to the point, emergence is often (usually? invariably?) a function of a network's connections, which are discarded and lost when we look only at the nodes.

This deviation from the 'normal' way in which we look at things makes emergence appear complicated, and it is. But only because we over-simplify in the first place. If we accepted that no network can be understood without understanding both its nodes and its connections, then we would realise how and why we are "over-simplifying".

Understanding the network is complicated. It requires that we understand both the nodes and the connections, and the way(s) in which they interact. Because we normally do much less than this, when we come to look at emergence, it appears complicated by comparison.

If my reasoning seems a little confused here, I think it's because I inadvertently referred to a network's nodes and connections as though they are separable, and as though it is valid to consider them independently of one another. They are neither separable nor independent. Quite the opposite. Without nodes, or without connections, the network does not even exist. Only when we consider nodes and connections together can we gain a valid and useful understanding of the network.

[Bahman]

Emergence is a slightly confusing concept. I find it easier if we take a step backward in our reasoning, and look instead at networks. A network comprises nodes and connections. Dualism and reductionism push us toward thinking that the network can be understood purely in terms of its nodes. It cannot, any more than it can be understood purely in terms of its connections. More to the point, emergence is often (usually? invariably?) a function of a network's connections, which are discarded and lost when we look only at the nodes.

This deviation from the 'normal' way in which we look at things makes emergence appear complicated, and it is. But only because we over-simplify in the first place. If we accepted that no network can be understood without understanding both its nodes and its connections, then we would realise how and why we are "over-simplifying".

Understanding the network is complicated. It requires that we understand both the nodes and the connections, and the way(s) in which they interact. Because we normally do much less than this, when we come to look at emergence, it appears complicated by comparison.

If my reasoning seems a little confused here, I think it's because I inadvertently referred to a network's nodes and connections as though they are separable, and as though it is valid to consider them independently of one another. They are neither separable nor independent. Quite the opposite. Without nodes, or without connections, the network does not even exist. Only when we consider nodes and connections together can we gain a valid and useful understanding of the network.

No, you were correct. The network has a set of properties nodes don't have since it matters how you connect nodes together. Let's say that you have two different networks that their nodes are connected differently. The behaviors of these networks are different in practice.

[Sy Borg]

Very early traditions were in tune with nature. However, increasingly traditions changed to see humans as divine and nature as humanity's expendable resources to do with as they will. Any sense of stewardship was thrown out.

Okay.
Can you mention what are those traditions?

Some interesting examples here: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... servation/

[Viswa_01210]

Religious scriptures are full of wisdom and love but only for those who interpret the scriptures as wisdom and love. For instance Islamic fundamentalists such as ISIS interpret holy scriptures as permission to steal land and kill people. Christian fundamentalists interpret holy scriptures as permission to steal land and kill people. There are Hindu fundamentalists who steal and kill.

That's why Rightful Compassionate King and watch over that those Fake Ones don't misuse Scriptures. It's a Big Kshatriya Dharma in Hinduism to watch over that even Brahmin sects don't misuse. But, you know, People don't want such Rightful King but only those who make Magnificent Illusionary speech but worse in Behaviour-wise. It's People's desires and responsibility (and mainly Karma ), that Rightful King is placed or not.

But, if it's necessary, a New Religion will be formed with same rules in different manner, like Prophet Mohammed provided a slight difference from Jesus though core is same. And that change might bring a Big Harshness to Women too, like Prophet Mohammed brought. It will surely come but don't know when. Will wait for the rightful time.

[Viswa_01210]

Some interesting examples here: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... servation/

Place Me as the King. I will take care of that fake One's activities and put in check.
Just Kidding.

You see, Trees has individual Karmas too. Their Death is not by some other person's activities, but only their own Karma. And so, the Karma of those who burned, is present too. It's a curious cycle which one cannot see with bare eyes. Even the Domination of Scientists, and their huge destruction of Living Beings and Mother Earth, each have Individual Karma and cannot escape from their own deeds, and no other person's actions do affect them, only their own.
No one is responsible for other, but only their own on attachment to actions. Life is worthless and meaningless, just a delusionary playground to play whatever ways one want and suffer according to attachment. The play ground can be renewed Infinite number of times. There is nothing to blame on People or Traditions or Fake Ones or Scientists or Science or etc.

If you have desires, go and enjoy and suffer in this delusionary playground.
If not,
Just Seek GOD/Truth/ME and do everything as a Duty without attachment to any actions, and not blaming anyone/anything and remain Peaceful Always Unaffected by any. Nothing more to say.

[Stoppelmann]

Religious scriptures are full of wisdom and love but only for those who interpret the scriptures as wisdom and love. For instance Islamic fundamentalists such as ISIS interpret holy scriptures as permission to steal land and kill people. Christian fundamentalists interpret holy scriptures as permission to steal land and kill people. There are Hindu fundamentalists who steal and kill.

The eye of the beholder ...

[Viswa_01210]

I think I had enough of discussion about Karma. I feel until one understand Karma, until one understand "Light side or Goodness and Dark side of Bad" in every action (be it action even from Jesus or Satan - every action has Good and Bad holistically), and choose wisely by relying upon which don't make one to be attached/averted to any action/things/people/beings in world, and that Brings Peace by removing Ignorance. And that lead one to truly Understand the Idea of GOD as ONE is not attached/averted to any. Freedom to understand Truth, is at beginning, as One be Free from every action/Life/Death then one can truly understand GOD, and it's not other way that "Only after understanding God/Truth, one can be free". Nope. Freedom is the start. Be Free from everything. Free from want to live. Free from experience. Free from things. Free from any need. Totally be free and ready to face anything seriously. Then that Emptiness reveals Truth.

Peace.

[Sy Borg]

Some interesting examples here: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... servation/

Place Me as the King. I will take care of that fake One's activities and put in check. :lol:
Just Kidding.

You see, Trees has individual Karmas too. Their Death is not by some other person's activities, but only their own Karma. And so, the Karma of those who burned, is present too. It's a curious cycle which one cannot see with bare eyes. Even the Domination of Scientists, and their huge destruction of Living Beings and Mother Earth, each have Individual Karma and cannot escape from their own deeds, and no other person's actions do affect them, only their own.
No one is responsible for other, but only their own on attachment to actions. Life is worthless and meaningless, just a delusionary playground to play whatever ways one want and suffer according to attachment. The play ground can be renewed Infinite number of times. There is nothing to blame on People or Traditions or Fake Ones or Scientists or Science or etc.

If you have desires, go and enjoy and suffer in this delusionary playground.
If not,
Just Seek GOD/Truth/ME and do everything as a Duty without attachment to any actions, and not blaming anyone/anything and remain Peaceful Always Unaffected by any. Nothing more to say.

I have read a fair bit about Buddhism and famed Buddhists so I know about karma on a theoretical level. It's basically just a personalised version of the Earth's endless movement towards equilibrium (always disrupted as the Sun bombards it with radiation). We call some of these movements towards balance "natural disasters" when they are large and sudden.

The "delusionary playground" you refer to is Maya. "Delusion" is an overly judgemental word IMO that fails to capture the essence of the situation. Our perceptions are filtered to optimise reproductive success, not to perceive reality in its entirety, which would be simply overwhelming. So it's not "delusion" but a limited reality, ultimately based on practicalities.

Thanks to a couple of peak experiences, I am aware of extraordinary states of consciousness that defy words. So, sure, there's all manner of potentials in life, both external and internal, but how one chooses to live one's life doesn't matter all that much IMO, as long as it doesn't harm others. We are tiny stitches in a larger fabric and we are still quite simple beings. Just as we can see the immaturity of past civilisations - their superstitions and ignorance of crucial facts of life, eg. hygiene, avoiding toxins - future societies* will see our immaturity. The conceptions of their smartest people will be beyond that of anyone alive today.

So I see no great need to chase "enlightenment" any more than the Neanderthals needed to seek it. Most are content to know enough to keep afloat, which these days is plenty.


* failing a major catastrophe

[Belindi]

Religious scriptures are full of wisdom and love but only for those who interpret the scriptures as wisdom and love. For instance Islamic fundamentalists such as ISIS interpret holy scriptures as permission to steal land and kill people. Christian fundamentalists interpret holy scriptures as permission to steal land and kill people. There are Hindu fundamentalists who steal and kill.

That's why Rightful Compassionate King and watch over that those Fake Ones don't misuse Scriptures. It's a Big Kshatriya Dharma in Hinduism to watch over that even Brahmin sects don't misuse. But, you know, People don't want such Rightful King but only those who make Magnificent Illusionary speech but worse in Behaviour-wise. It's People's desires and responsibility (and mainly Karma ), that Rightful King is placed or not.

But, if it's necessary, a New Religion will be formed with same rules in different manner, like Prophet Mohammed provided a slight difference from Jesus though core is same. And that change might bring a Big Harshness to Women too, like Prophet Mohammed brought. It will surely come but don't know when. Will wait for the rightful time.

Then what you need to do is try to ensure that religion is always open to questioning and uncertainty. "Same rules" must be examined for political bias towards greed, selfishness, and ignorance. Greed, selfishness, and ignorance are products of fear not love.

When human males grab power over women the males are greedy, selfish, and ignorant, they are not on the side of love.

[Viswa_01210]

Then what you need to do is try to ensure that religion is always open to questioning and uncertainty. "Same rules" must be examined for political bias towards greed, selfishness, and ignorance. Greed, selfishness, and ignorance are products of fear not love.

When human males grab power over women the males are greedy, selfish, and ignorant, they are not on the side of love.

It's based on why you meant by Love. If by Love, you mean to let Woman to go free to attain any desires and greed and ego and work they want, ofcourse Jesus himself won't, because Woman is the better person suitable to look after Family (mainly children). Children needs that sensitive care, and Mom's affection is the real care and Women cannot be made to go out forgetting their family responsibility, out of Love.

But, Respect, can be shown even when Males grab power, and it is based on the Male who is very Egoistic or Totally Non-Ego is placed. An Enlightened Male should be Placed as King, like Rama, Yudhistra, Jesus, Prophet Mohammed, etc.., not these Egocentric one. I can assure you that if you place such Male King, Peace be there and answers every issues compassionately, Love will be there.

There is no need of open to question and Uncertainty, Belindi. If you throw all your desire upon world, if you be free from everything, you can understand why Religions be this way for a better society. Nothing to question and fairly easily visible if mind is Empty, not attached/aversed to anything, not attached to Life nor Death.

First Empty the Mind, Be free, don't desire Life. Then look at everything. I assure you that everything Religion speaks is good for Society, and to reach GOD but not fall to Earthly desires.

[Viswa_01210]

I have read a fair bit about Buddhism and famed Buddhists so I know about karma on a theoretical level. It's basically just a personalised version of the Earth's endless movement towards equilibrium (always disrupted as the Sun bombards it with radiation). We call some of these movements towards balance "natural disasters" when they are large and sudden.

The "delusionary playground" you refer to is Maya. "Delusion" is an overly judgemental word IMO that fails to capture the essence of the situation. Our perceptions are filtered to optimise reproductive success, not to perceive reality in its entirety, which would be simply overwhelming. So it's not "delusion" but a limited reality, ultimately based on practicalities.

Thanks to a couple of peak experiences, I am aware of extraordinary states of consciousness that defy words. So, sure, there's all manner of potentials in life, both external and internal, but how one chooses to live one's life doesn't matter all that much IMO, as long as it doesn't harm others. We are tiny stitches in a larger fabric and we are still quite simple beings. Just as we can see the immaturity of past civilisations - their superstitions and ignorance of crucial facts of life, eg. hygiene, avoiding toxins - future societies* will see our immaturity. The conceptions of their smartest people will be beyond that of anyone alive today.

So I see no great need to chase "enlightenment" any more than the Neanderthals needed to seek it. Most are content to know enough to keep afloat, which these days is plenty.


* failing a major catastrophe

It's upto you. I'm open for you to have such perceptions to whatever way you want to see it even manipulating history.
But, this perception of your's, will bring no Peace within. No end for sufferings. No end for Monkey Game.
And, there is no action in the world that will harm none. Every action has harm upon someone. But, again, you are free to delude yourself and seek such action and suffer and die like Jiddu Krishnamurti.
Let the Neanderthal Men be however. If one needs falsity or delusion (in the name of practicality), one is free again to suffer. It's not about Enlightenment. It's not about any experiences. It's about Truth.

But, anyway, have fun in accusing Religion and Sages and any civilizations, and praise Future ones. I'm not into it, speaking about Good or Bad things about Worldly Life, not Praising or Condemning any, only understanding the Reality and be Free and Wise and Peaceful and reach Truth.

[Sy Borg]

I have read a fair bit about Buddhism and famed Buddhists so I know about karma on a theoretical level. It's basically just a personalised version of the Earth's endless movement towards equilibrium (always disrupted as the Sun bombards it with radiation). We call some of these movements towards balance "natural disasters" when they are large and sudden.

The "delusionary playground" you refer to is Maya. "Delusion" is an overly judgemental word IMO that fails to capture the essence of the situation. Our perceptions are filtered to optimise reproductive success, not to perceive reality in its entirety, which would be simply overwhelming. So it's not "delusion" but a limited reality, ultimately based on practicalities.

Thanks to a couple of peak experiences, I am aware of extraordinary states of consciousness that defy words. So, sure, there's all manner of potentials in life, both external and internal, but how one chooses to live one's life doesn't matter all that much IMO, as long as it doesn't harm others. We are tiny stitches in a larger fabric and we are still quite simple beings. Just as we can see the immaturity of past civilisations - their superstitions and ignorance of crucial facts of life, eg. hygiene, avoiding toxins - future societies* will see our immaturity. The conceptions of their smartest people will be beyond that of anyone alive today.

So I see no great need to chase "enlightenment" any more than the Neanderthals needed to seek it. Most are content to know enough to keep afloat, which these days is plenty.


* failing a major catastrophe

It's upto you. I'm open for you to have such perceptions to whatever way you want to see it even manipulating history.
But, this perception of your's, will bring no Peace within. No end for sufferings. No end for Monkey Game.
And, there is no action in the world that will harm none. Every action has harm upon someone. But, again, you are free to delude yourself and seek such action and suffer and die like Jiddu Krishnamurti.
Let the Neanderthal Men be however. If one needs falsity or delusion (in the name of practicality), one is free again to suffer. It's not about Enlightenment. It's not about any experiences. It's about Truth.

But, anyway, have fun in accusing Religion and Sages and any civilizations, and praise Future ones. I'm not into it, speaking about Good or Bad things about Worldly Life, not Praising or Condemning any, only understanding the Reality and be Free and Wise and Peaceful and reach Truth.

There is nothing in your post that suggests to me that you are at peace. Rather, your posts are agitated, hostile and not entirely coherent. If your methods brought you to this, of what use were your methods?

You think you have risen above, but that is delusion. You are as stuck in the Monkey Game as any of us, perhaps more so because you see yourself as already holding "The Truth", so you need to deal with that egotism before you can even start to see clearly. It should be noted that Buddhist masters routinely warn of such arrogance, yet here you are.

You forget that you "Truth" is another's superstition. Meanwhile, their "Truth" is nonsense to you. What makes you right? What makes you the arbiter of Truth?

Such questions were asked of unsubstantiated claims thousands of years. You speak as though you value the wisdom of the ancients, yet you didn't actually pay attention to their ideas, perhaps too lost in a romanticised idealisation of antiquity that devalues modern learning.

[Viswa_01210]

I have read a fair bit about Buddhism and famed Buddhists so I know about karma on a theoretical level. It's basically just a personalised version of the Earth's endless movement towards equilibrium (always disrupted as the Sun bombards it with radiation). We call some of these movements towards balance "natural disasters" when they are large and sudden.

The "delusionary playground" you refer to is Maya. "Delusion" is an overly judgemental word IMO that fails to capture the essence of the situation. Our perceptions are filtered to optimise reproductive success, not to perceive reality in its entirety, which would be simply overwhelming. So it's not "delusion" but a limited reality, ultimately based on practicalities.

Thanks to a couple of peak experiences, I am aware of extraordinary states of consciousness that defy words. So, sure, there's all manner of potentials in life, both external and internal, but how one chooses to live one's life doesn't matter all that much IMO, as long as it doesn't harm others. We are tiny stitches in a larger fabric and we are still quite simple beings. Just as we can see the immaturity of past civilisations - their superstitions and ignorance of crucial facts of life, eg. hygiene, avoiding toxins - future societies* will see our immaturity. The conceptions of their smartest people will be beyond that of anyone alive today.

So I see no great need to chase "enlightenment" any more than the Neanderthals needed to seek it. Most are content to know enough to keep afloat, which these days is plenty.


* failing a major catastrophe

It's upto you. I'm open for you to have such perceptions to whatever way you want to see it even manipulating history.
But, this perception of your's, will bring no Peace within. No end for sufferings. No end for Monkey Game.
And, there is no action in the world that will harm none. Every action has harm upon someone. But, again, you are free to delude yourself and seek such action and suffer and die like Jiddu Krishnamurti.
Let the Neanderthal Men be however. If one needs falsity or delusion (in the name of practicality), one is free again to suffer. It's not about Enlightenment. It's not about any experiences. It's about Truth.

But, anyway, have fun in accusing Religion and Sages and any civilizations, and praise Future ones. I'm not into it, speaking about Good or Bad things about Worldly Life, not Praising or Condemning any, only understanding the Reality and be Free and Wise and Peaceful and reach Truth.

There is nothing in your post that suggests to me that you are at peace. Rather, your posts are agitated, hostile and not entirely coherent. If your methods brought you to this, of what use were your methods?

You think you have risen above, but that is delusion. You are as stuck in the Monkey Game as any of us, perhaps more so because you see yourself as already holding "The Truth", so you need to deal with that egotism before you can even start to see clearly. It should be noted that Buddhist masters routinely warn of such arrogance, yet here you are.

You forget that you "Truth" is another's superstition. Meanwhile, their "Truth" is nonsense to you. What makes you right? What makes you the arbiter of Truth?

Such questions were asked of unsubstantiated claims thousands of years. You speak as though you value the wisdom of the ancients, yet you didn't actually pay attention to their ideas, perhaps too lost in a romanticised idealisation of antiquity that devalues modern learning.

I never devalued. I learn everything said everywhere. But I try to show the Dark side, which you skip of speaking bout constantly.

My only question is, do I feel Arrogant? If so, that's your mistake to delude that my posts and words looks so. If you want to really see my way of speech and behaviour, you have to come with a Video Dialogue Online. Only then you can understand. But, I know, how people cover oneself with "fake" names - very much feared of reveling the name, to maintain a "good image" in daily life and so you won't come up with Video Dialogue.
If you are okay to show yourself in Video Dialogue, I appreciate that. But, if not, why fear of revealing yourself like I do without hesitation? What's the issue? Why running from yourself? What kind of "Personal protection" needed when one is involved in speaking of deeper things?

You know what?, I have a friend of Mine. He is a very sensitive and quite Intelligent. When he gets hurt of some speech even though it is said out of love, he goes off. But, he shows his disagreement very arrogantly with those "fake" names and accounts, so that, he can protect his own image not get damaged on one hand, and also express his anger upon me on another hand.

I never said I attained "Truth". Again you are deluding, trying to create a bad impression upon me whomever reads it. I never said anywhere that I am Enlightened or etc. But, surely, I'm at Peace and can see sufferings near to 0. Also, I love you of whom you are and I'm okay with it. I will even give more points of my personal things, to create more such bad impression upon me.

But, I know and can assure you that, I'm in "Path". I felt that my friend, would be somewhere around here and just try to remind him that not to get attached to World and be Wise. Desiring this World and life is just bondage invoking sufferings and nothing else, and this is core of all Deep religious scriptures, and that is what I try to show to my friend. I got attached to that Friend, and I don't know whether it is a Bond from Many Lifes or etc. But, I'm sure, if that friend reveals the truth of why he is fearing to show himself openly in his own birth name, and why he is much attached to World, I will break my attachment to him too. As he doesn't reveals that, I got very curious to find it out, that's why I jump from Forums to Forums. I don't know what's to fear to speak openly with birth Name. But, if he is ready to openly say just the "true reason" behind it and true reason of attachment to world, I'm off. I'm sure will go away and will wait on "other" side Blissful and Peaceful. I just don't want him to suffer like all living beings, as he is capable of being Wise but not get locked up and fear of revealing.

Not an arbiter I am, but If you say so, then I feel you have also no right to scold Religions if you too can't understand Truth. If you don't understand Religions, just skip speaking about it, but not damaging, it will only create more hatred to you and much anger and sufferings. But, also, it's your life. You can have fun in doing anything you want. I just opened up my view about scriptures, and if you don't like it, go on with creating bad impression upon whom you hate if you have fun with it. I truly love you being whatever you are, but I fear of the sufferings upcoming and my attachment to that friend hold me. I beg to that friend to show the true reason of all this, why fear of using birth name, why fear of speaking personal things, why angry to understand the Love of Religions to help one not get attached to world, what kind of past made you/him into this hatredness. I'm very sorry and can understand the pain of oneself which rised much hatred, but I'm here for you to help to remove such hatred, because Religions are really to help One for Peace but not like those Fake Priests/Followers Egoistically devour People.

Just to mention again to you and my friend, that I'm here for you to speak everything nd anything, and I feel I can remove that hatredness. But, if you don't want to and only want to look at me as just one of the Fake Priests, if you feel that I have only arrogance and no love/compassion to you, then It's okay I can understand that Uncertainty too. But, please reveal the reason/past what made one like this, so that I will disappear from you. This curiosity to know "why" about you and that friend, makes me go no sleep and Peace. Yeah, it breaks my Peace and I don't know why. Might be the attachment, and I ask that tremendous help from you to reveal that "why" so that I can break that Attachment too.

Thank you. Hope you understand where I speak from.

[Viswa_01210]

I have read a fair bit about Buddhism and famed Buddhists so I know about karma on a theoretical level. It's basically just a personalised version of the Earth's endless movement towards equilibrium (always disrupted as the Sun bombards it with radiation). We call some of these movements towards balance "natural disasters" when they are large and sudden.

The "delusionary playground" you refer to is Maya. "Delusion" is an overly judgemental word IMO that fails to capture the essence of the situation. Our perceptions are filtered to optimise reproductive success, not to perceive reality in its entirety, which would be simply overwhelming. So it's not "delusion" but a limited reality, ultimately based on practicalities.

Thanks to a couple of peak experiences, I am aware of extraordinary states of consciousness that defy words. So, sure, there's all manner of potentials in life, both external and internal, but how one chooses to live one's life doesn't matter all that much IMO, as long as it doesn't harm others. We are tiny stitches in a larger fabric and we are still quite simple beings. Just as we can see the immaturity of past civilisations - their superstitions and ignorance of crucial facts of life, eg. hygiene, avoiding toxins - future societies* will see our immaturity. The conceptions of their smartest people will be beyond that of anyone alive today.

So I see no great need to chase "enlightenment" any more than the Neanderthals needed to seek it. Most are content to know enough to keep afloat, which these days is plenty.


* failing a major catastrophe

It's upto you. I'm open for you to have such perceptions to whatever way you want to see it even manipulating history.
But, this perception of your's, will bring no Peace within. No end for sufferings. No end for Monkey Game.
And, there is no action in the world that will harm none. Every action has harm upon someone. But, again, you are free to delude yourself and seek such action and suffer and die like Jiddu Krishnamurti.
Let the Neanderthal Men be however. If one needs falsity or delusion (in the name of practicality), one is free again to suffer. It's not about Enlightenment. It's not about any experiences. It's about Truth.

But, anyway, have fun in accusing Religion and Sages and any civilizations, and praise Future ones. I'm not into it, speaking about Good or Bad things about Worldly Life, not Praising or Condemning any, only understanding the Reality and be Free and Wise and Peaceful and reach Truth.

There is nothing in your post that suggests to me that you are at peace. Rather, your posts are agitated, hostile and not entirely coherent. If your methods brought you to this, of what use were your methods?

You think you have risen above, but that is delusion. You are as stuck in the Monkey Game as any of us, perhaps more so because you see yourself as already holding "The Truth", so you need to deal with that egotism before you can even start to see clearly. It should be noted that Buddhist masters routinely warn of such arrogance, yet here you are.

You forget that you "Truth" is another's superstition. Meanwhile, their "Truth" is nonsense to you. What makes you right? What makes you the arbiter of Truth?

Such questions were asked of unsubstantiated claims thousands of years. You speak as though you value the wisdom of the ancients, yet you didn't actually pay attention to their ideas, perhaps too lost in a romanticised idealisation of antiquity that devalues modern learning.

I many times made my mind that "this shall be reason" or "that" or "whatever it might be I have nothing to do with it", but it didn't worked out.

I not got suffered of it, by curiosity to seek knowledge made me restless. Not damaged by True Inner Peace, but at the base level got struggled in daily life curiously thinking of "what shall it be" and time passes.

So, please help me with that. Thanks.