Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Jklint]

A lot of people today write about AI and aliens. A thousand years ago, they didn't. Back then, they dreamed of kings and gods instead.

Same idea but with different protagonists or antagonists as the case may be all contained within the same paradigm but upgraded to modern sensibilities. The linear logic of it persists carried forward in a manner which loses none of its original motives or rationale. As in evolution, it takes a very long time not to notice a resemblance between what started a process and its latest incarnation.

[Sy Borg]

A lot of people today write about AI and aliens. A thousand years ago, they didn't. Back then, they dreamed of kings and gods instead.

Same idea but with different protagonists or antagonists as the case may be all contained within the same paradigm but upgraded to modern sensibilities. The linear logic of it persists carried forward in a manner which loses none of its original motives or rationale. As in evolution, it takes a very long time not to notice a resemblance between what started a process and its latest incarnation.

Yes, it's interesting how we have these placeholder concepts into which recent actors can be inserted. AI and kings are the earthly rulers that control us while gods and aliens are "out there" (ultimately in the environment), exerting influence on us.

[Pattern-chaser]

I know that feeling, Wolf. Writing the stories turned out to be easier than editing to "humanise" them. Philosophy forums probably don't help in that regard.

Too often I broke the rule - show, don't tell. Too often I used academic rather than relatable words. Too often I indulged in details out of interest without considering how it would impact on the story flow. I sent an early manuscript to a friendly online scientist acquaintance and he suggested that I ease up on the extraneous scientific detail, which says much about how turgid the text was at first

After seven months of editing, though, it's improving. I am going to put these infernal ideas I've had out into the world or burst! If that means editing for a decade, so be it. Apparently Stephen King can produce six pages of clean copy in a day, which simply makes my jaw drop. ix pages is easy. Clean copy is not. To be fair, that impressed GRRM too so that made me feel less plodding.

This sums up my feelings pretty well. I've attended writing courses, but gained little. My fictional prose is ... awful! My technical writing isn't too bad, though. <tentative grin>

[Todd Scull]

Apart from reading various authors and books, what else can be done to make writing more stylish/eloquence yet concise?

My advice would be to value concision and clarity over being stylish. Take a writing class, or find a situation where you can have others read your works and provide feedback. Also, consider the type of writing you want to do. Consider your purpose and audience to inform your essays. For example, writing a philosophy paper to academics is a different purpose and audience than writing a letter to an editor to the local paper.

Shelly Kagan, a philosopher from Yale has an excellent guide he gives his students. Since I can't attach files or link to an external source, simply Google "Shelly Kagan how to write a philosophy paper".

[Pattern-chaser]

...simply Google "Shelly Kagan how to write a philosophy paper".

I did. Although some advice is good for all writing styles, this focuses strongly on the writing of academic papers, just as it sets out to do. Writing fiction, for example, is a very different thing. For a start, the writer needs to learn about how to hold the interest of her reader, and there's an awful lot to that. An awful lot that doesn't apply to any academic essay. Then there's reporting: writing the news, or the like. And then there's....

[Good] writing is hard.

[Terrapin Station]

Aside from reading a lot, write a lot and get critical feedback on your writing. Writing a lot is the only way you'll develop a style of your own.

Also make sure that you critically read to yourself what you write, after you finish a draft--don't self-critique while writing the first draft. If you're not winding up with multiple drafts, if you're not making plenty of changes on read-throughs, you're probably not being critical enough.

In addition to the obvious task of proofreading, when you read back what you wrote remember that people aren't in your head, so they don't know what you're thinking, they don't immediately know the context of what you're presenting, they probably don't share your background (depending on your target audience), they haven't had your experiences, etc. Keep in mind the audience you're writing for. Are you explaining things that you need to explain? The audience you're targeting will require or allow different vocabulary, more or less complex sentence structure, more or less abstract/nuanced ideas, etc. If you're writing for general publication you need to write differently than if you're writing an article for a peer-reviewed journal.

When you critically check your own writing, try to imagine that you're a different person who has no idea what you're talking about. Are you communicating clearly and concisely so that a random stranger (of your target audience) would get the gist of what you're saying?

[Jing or Jang]

Apart from reading various authors and books, what else can be done to make writing more stylish/eloquence yet concise?

By reading & rereading specific authors and books. Its' subliminal benefits cannot be overstated.

[Steve3007]

...what else can be done to make writing more stylish/eloquence yet concise?

If you're asking what can be done to make your writing understandable by the reader, it's already been said in previous posts. But of the advice given in those posts, I'd say the most important single point is: critically read it back to yourself, attempting to place yourself in the position of the intended audience.

If you're asking how to make it more stylish, I'd suggest that style is a subjective judgement. Different things are stylish to different people.

A point which you might think trivial: check the grammar and spelling. Errors or wide deviations from standard usages can cause unnecessary confusion if not explained.

[Sy Borg]

As in most aspects of life, quality is far less important than contacts and operating in a commercial idiom. Without good contacts - people in your corner - there is almost no hope of achievement, no matter how well one writes.

Once your writing skills are fairly basic, developing networking skills will make far more difference than working on writing skills, which tends to improve anyway with practice.

[Mounce574]

Write how you speak. Write about what you know.
Those are the two pieces of advice that have allowed me to improve my writing.

[JackDaydream]

It depends, Lone Wolf. Not long ago I wasted six hundred dollars on a creative writing course in Sydney. The trouble was that I'm interested in sci fi and speculative fiction but the the instructor was a renowned crime novelist who clearly detested sci fi. Once she found out my interests she snubbed me throughout while focusing on those in the class writing about crime or human interest stories. I could see there was no point asking her to read my manuscript.

The experience impacted on my confidence and stole some of the momentum and belief I had in my short stories. It took months to regather my equilibrium and mojo - and the information provided in the course was obvious anyway. All the info is online if you are disciplined.

It's well worth checking up on writing instructors to make sure that you won't be an ignored paying bum on a seat subsidising the instruction of "inner sanctum" students. Note that best selling authors won't necessarily have the equivalent capacities as a teacher.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience in a creative writing course. I did some and found them variable. The last one I went to al few years ago, by a published author was the most unhelpful. That is because he had a fairly rigid formula and it froze my own writing process for such a long time. In some ways, an unhelpful class can we worse than none at all.

I did find a writing group before lockdown, which was fairly useful and hope to find one again. But, finding the right one is sometimes difficult. I experiment with various genres and it does seem that a lot of people in creative writing circles shun science fiction, almost as if it is a bit 'nerdy', which seems rather elitist. I have found that some people in creative writing circles, including some tutors almost encourage 'purple prose' under the category of literary fiction.

[Sculptor1]

Apart from reading various authors and books, what else can be done to make writing more stylish/eloquence yet concise?

Keep trying.
Write everyday.
Try to channel authors whose style you like, imagine them writing for you.
Everyday, look up three words you use a lot in a Thesaurus, and write down the differences in their meanings.
Try to use those words later on.
Do not be afraid to use longer sentences with clauses, as these demonstrate a quality of thinking that is not expressed with fashionable, choppy, short sentences as they hone the meaning by avoiding ambiguity.
Choppy sentences can lead to misunderstandings.,

[Pattern-chaser]

Do not be afraid to use longer sentences with clauses, as these demonstrate a quality of thinking that is not expressed with fashionable, choppy, short sentences as they hone the meaning by avoiding ambiguity.
Choppy sentences can lead to misunderstandings.,

As I think Sy Borg has commented elsewhere, writing presented for consumption by reading from a screen should be presented differently from more traditional writing, for optimum clarity. I think this is a valuable observation, and I try to use it, to some extent, in my own writing.

[Sculptor1]

Do not be afraid to use longer sentences with clauses, as these demonstrate a quality of thinking that is not expressed with fashionable, choppy, short sentences as they hone the meaning by avoiding ambiguity.
Choppy sentences can lead to misunderstandings.,

As I think Sy Borg has commented elsewhere, writing presented for consumption by reading from a screen should be presented differently from more traditional writing, for optimum clarity. I think this is a valuable observation, and I try to use it, to some extent, in my own writing.

I would agree and that is why I think the longer sentence, where possible, is the better policy.
Given that in a Forum such a thins the opportunity to read fully and completely is at its height, the forum is the natural home of the longer sentence.
By all means use short pithy and ambiguous statements on Twitter and elsewhere. But it might be worth reflecting that such practice may well be the reason why there is so much antagonism and aggression in the world of social media.

[Pattern-chaser]

By all means use short pithy and ambiguous statements on Twitter and elsewhere. But it might be worth reflecting that such practice may well be the reason why there is so much antagonism and aggression in the world of social media.

So you don't subscribe to the idea that Twitter is a bit like haiku, where the short length is said to contribute to poetic creativity?