Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belindi]

I am just so surprised that so many people claim to be so certain one way or another.

It's surprising how many people doubt Zeus's existence.

Why can't they keep an open mind? How can they be so sure that Zeus is not real?

I never believed in Zeus, but I have known a few people who were pagans and did believe in many deities. I found the ideas of van Daniken, Zachariah Sitchkin and Graham Hancock, on gods who came from otherworlds interesting at one stage, but did conclude that the viewpoint was too concrete, in failing to distinguish the symbolic point of view.

It is likely that some people have a more open mind and others don't. It may be partly dependent on the background one comes from and partly about one's own approach in thinking. While many on this forum view the idea of any belief in God as absurd, in real life a large proportion of the people I know, including close friends, regard lack of acceptance of God as ridiculous.

To some extent, I wonder to what extent we even choose our beliefs. Of course, there is the extent to which anyone chooses to pursue various ideas and worldviews. I have chosen to follow through different worldviews and would not have done so if any one stood out as the ultimate one. Some are more inclined to sit on the fence looking in on all the various horizons. I am not sure that the fence is the most comfortable place to be rather than in a safe field with familiar territories, rather than meandering around in the wastelands in between.

I see no reason to divide humanity between those who belief in ancient deities and those who don't, no more than I would parse us based on whether we approved of the Roman Empire or not.

Ultimately Yahweh was the Israelite response to their hated rivals, the Canaanites, whose deity Ba'al was once the most powerful and expansive one around. So the Israelites borrowed a number of attributes from Ba'al to beef Yahweh up, until it was the strongest deity. Sacred stories of many ancient cultures intermingled constantly.

So we can say that today's God evolved from Yahweh. In the end, it's just giving credit to humanesque characters for the extraordinary achievements of the Sun and the Earth. It's not miles from politicians being apportioned credit or blame for global economic conditions. The driver is the same. Ego and solipsism.

Is there consciousness within other complex systems in the universe? I'm open to it, though many aren't. If we lived within a conscious system, how would we know? In this, we need to be cautious of confirmation bias.

Tribal gods pertaining to the same tribe are not all the same god. Some tribal gods are creator gods of the deist sort. Some gods are ancestors. Some tribal gods such as Ba'al are gods of place. The ancient Israelites made a portable housing for their god so he was a sort of god of place, but with the capability to change into a bigger manifestation of tribal protection + mores. The fact that the Israelites were nomadic and successfully aggressive was a substantial cause of the development of Jahweh/God into a god capable of universal appeal.

[Stoppelmann]

I never believed in Zeus, but I have known a few people who were pagans and did believe in many deities. I found the ideas of van Daniken, Zachariah Sitchkin and Graham Hancock, on gods who came from otherworlds interesting at one stage, but did conclude that the viewpoint was too concrete, in failing to distinguish the symbolic point of view.

I think you do a disservice to Graham Hancock by lumping him together with those people. He has often said he has nothing to do with aliens and UFOs, most recently here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBJS7Td2Gdo

[JackDaydream]

I never believed in Zeus, but I have known a few people who were pagans and did believe in many deities. I found the ideas of van Daniken, Zachariah Sitchkin and Graham Hancock, on gods who came from otherworlds interesting at one stage, but did conclude that the viewpoint was too concrete, in failing to distinguish the symbolic point of view.

I think you do a disservice to Graham Hancock by lumping him together with those people. He has often said he has nothing to do with aliens and UFOs, most recently here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBJS7Td2Gdo

I am afraid I can't watch the film and it is possible that I am putting too many ideas together. It is possible that I take the existence of aliens more seriously than Hancock and I did flirt with ideas such as those of van Daniken. It was probably the book, 'Flying Saucers', by Carl Jung which led me away from this. Jung saw the many accounts of aliens as being a replacement of previous religious symbols in line with the representations of the mythical issues of the twentieth century.

As you know from my thread on culture and 'progress' I think that there was probably a lot more to many ancient civilisations than many take seriously. Hancock and many others may have a lot to contribute, so I would not wish to dismiss them. I am extremely interested in the origins of religion, including the ideas of Julian Jaynes in connection with the evolution of consciousness. In particular, he suggests that the earliest people often hallucinated 'voices' which they attributed to the 'gods'. The evolution of the notion of gods, or God, may be interconnected with the evolution of consciousness.

[Stoppelmann]

I see no reason to divide humanity between those who belief in ancient deities and those who don't, no more than I would parse us based on whether we approved of the Roman Empire or not.

Ultimately Yahweh was the Israelite response to their hated rivals, the Canaanites, whose deity Ba'al was once the most powerful and expansive one around. So the Israelites borrowed a number of attributes from Ba'al to beef Yahweh up, until it was the strongest deity. Sacred stories of many ancient cultures intermingled constantly.

So we can say that today's God evolved from Yahweh. In the end, it's just giving credit to humanesque characters for the extraordinary achievements of the Sun and the Earth. It's not miles from politicians being apportioned credit or blame for global economic conditions. The driver is the same. Ego and solipsism.

Is there consciousness within other complex systems in the universe? I'm open to it, though many aren't. If we lived within a conscious system, how would we know? In this, we need to be cautious of confirmation bias.

I think that there is an ever increasing need to differentiate, which is really the philosophers job, because the population and the powerful do not do that. The developments in thought that progressed through history have only ever been put forward by individuals and under threat of death, because every new paradigm was seen as threatening the old, which is why they were often kept under the cultural influence of the time. For example, the Old Testament Prophets were a contradicting force and tradition has it that they were all killed or incarcerated. Jesus, who picked up the thread of those dissidents, was also labelled a revolutionary and killed. His followers are said to have suffered the same fate at the hands of Roman and Greek authorities.

Progress was as threatening to the accusers of Socrates as it was to the accusers of Galileo or Copernicus, or as it is to a pampered population today, when faced with facts that do not suit them. We live in an extremely superficial and inconsequent time, considering how we go on about being an advanced species, and having science to guide us. But it has always been the same ...

212 BCE – Archimedes killed during the Siege of Syracuse by a Roman soldier despite orders that he should not be harmed.
43 BCE – Cicero while leaving his villa in Formiae was beheaded by two killers, allegedly sent by Marcus Antonius
415 – Hypatia was lynched by a mob of Christians.
526 – Boethius was strangled on the orders of the Ostrogoth king Theodoric by whom he was employed.
1600 – Giordano Bruno was burnt by the Inquisition.
1619 – Lucilio Vanini was also burnt by the Inquisition.
1940 – Leon Trotsky was assassinated on Stalin's orders in Mexico, by Soviet agent Ramón Mercader, along with most of his family.
1941 – Henri Bergson died of pneumonia in occupied Paris, which he supposedly contracted after standing in a queue for several hours in order to register as a Jew.
1941 – Kurt Grelling was killed by the Nazis.
1941 – Edith Stein died in a gas chamber in the Auschwitz concentration camp.
1942 – Georges Politzer was executed by the Nazis.
1943 – Simone Weil starved herself to death.
1944 – Jean Cavaillès was shot by the Gestapo.
1944 – Marc Bloch was shot by the Gestapo for his work in the French Resistance.
1944 – Giovanni Gentile was murdered by communist partisans.
1945 – Dietrich Bonhoeffer was executed by hanging.
1945 – Gerhard Gentzen was detained in a prison camp by the Russian forces, where he died of malnutrition.
1945 – Johan Huizinga died in De Steeg in Gelderland, near Arnhem, where he was held in detention by the Nazis.
1945 – Miki Kiyoshi died in prison; he had been imprisoned after helping a friend on the run from the authorities.
1948 – Mohandas Gandhi was shot and killed by a Hindu zealot.
And many more ...

Regarding consciousness within other complex systems in the universe, I'm open to it as well ...

[EricPH]

It is possible that I take the existence of aliens more seriously than Hancock and I did flirt with ideas such as those of van Daniken.

Whether the first life was in Asia, Africa or some distant planet, the question still exists, what happened pre - Big Bang. Not sure aliens had much to do with this.

My understanding of God, is that he had the knowledge, power and the purpose to set the universe and life in motion.

[Sy Borg]

Jack, I don't see why godlessness should equate to a wasteland. In some ways, today is one of the very best times in human history to be alive. Most of us on the forum will live in a state of luxury beyond the dreams of Roman emperors, sans the slaves. Speaking of which, much of the world has been built on slavery. During much of history, slavery was not seen as cruel and abhorrent, just normal. That was back when we lived in a godly oasis rather than this godless wasteland, yes?

The decay you sense is the breakdown of systems under the weight of unprecedented human populations.

[Sy Borg]

Progress was as threatening to the accusers of Socrates as it was to the accusers of Galileo or Copernicus, or as it is to a pampered population today, when faced with facts that do not suit them. We live in an extremely superficial and inconsequent time, considering how we go on about being an advanced species, and having science to guide us. But it has always been the same ...

I disagree. I think we live a most important and pivotal time. There's always been superficiality and obsession with trivia. This is a disparate time, with all manner of people operating in all manner of ways.

That's why I am dubious when people describe the future in terms of "we", such as "we will one day go and live on other planets". Hmm. Does that mean that any of us regular people will just be able to go to a space port and be shuttled offworld? It's not "we" but various groups.

[Sy Borg]

Tribal gods pertaining to the same tribe are not all the same god. Some tribal gods are creator gods of the deist sort. Some gods are ancestors. Some tribal gods such as Ba'al are gods of place. The ancient Israelites made a portable housing for their god so he was a sort of god of place, but with the capability to change into a bigger manifestation of tribal protection + mores. The fact that the Israelites were nomadic and successfully aggressive was a substantial cause of the development of Jahweh/God into a god capable of universal appeal.

Basically, God is an example of scope creep. Once he ruled small warring tribes. Then he expanded to take in the whole world, then the whole universe, back when the universe comprised of the Earth, Sun, Moon and a dome of stars.

I think capturing Constantine was Yahweh's big break. He changed his name and became a superstar.

[Stoppelmann]

I disagree. I think we live a most important and pivotal time. There's always been superficiality and obsession with trivia. This is a disparate time, with all manner of people operating in all manner of ways.

That's why I am dubious when people describe the future in terms of "we", such as "we will one day go and live on other planets". Hmm. Does that mean that any of us regular people will just be able to go to a space port and be shuttled offworld? It's not "we" but various groups.

Okay, perhaps I don't see the important questions being asked, but what is it, a important and pivotal time, or a disparate time? The inconsistency with which important issues are being addressed suggests that the people who have been given the responsibility are equally superficial and obsessed with trivia. That is precisely why I share your scepticism about space travel in the future, along with the fact that I believe that we are part of this planet and cannot flourish anywhere else.

[Stoppelmann]

Basically, God is an example of scope creep. Once he ruled small warring tribes. Then he expanded to take in the whole world, then the whole universe, back when the universe comprised of the Earth, Sun, Moon and a dome of stars.

I think capturing Constantine was Yahweh's big break. He changed his name and became a superstar.

For someone who doesn't take God seriously, you see him as being very active ...

[Belindi]

Tribal gods pertaining to the same tribe are not all the same god. Some tribal gods are creator gods of the deist sort. Some gods are ancestors. Some tribal gods such as Ba'al are gods of place. The ancient Israelites made a portable housing for their god so he was a sort of god of place, but with the capability to change into a bigger manifestation of tribal protection + mores. The fact that the Israelites were nomadic and successfully aggressive was a substantial cause of the development of Jahweh/God into a god capable of universal appeal.

Basically, God is an example of scope creep. Once he ruled small warring tribes. Then he expanded to take in the whole world, then the whole universe, back when the universe comprised of the Earth, Sun, Moon and a dome of stars.

I think capturing Constantine was Yahweh's big break. He changed his name and became a superstar.

Constantine and Xianity is a good illustration of downwards diffusion of an idea.


Ideas diffuse. Sometime ideas diffuse within a society, and sometimes ideas diffuse among several societies. Trade is a usual route for and cause of diffusion of ideas. Successful aggression is a means for ideas to be diffused downwards from the powerful to the less powerful. Hitler was good at spreading ideas downward so they spread throughout the society. Some celebrities and some intellectuals are good at diffusing ideas downwards. The advertising industry owes its existence to downward diffusion.
However what happened with the success of the early Jahweh cult was downward diffusion arising from outright aggression on the part of the Israelites. Ba'al seems to have survived in outlying pockets of societies. Is the pagan god who was honoured by 'balefires' on quite a few Scottish hilltops a manifestation of the same Ba'al?

Upwards diffusion from the less powerful to the elites happen in revolutions such as the American and French revolutions.

[Sculptor1]

I disregard Gaia due to its association with new age romanticism.

That's me told, then, isn't it?

It's not much of an argument though, since it's origin was far from New age R, whatever the F that is.
For most definitions the Gaia Hypothesis does not even qualify as a god, but a mechanism.

[Sculptor1]

I see no reason to divide humanity between those who belief in ancient deities and those who don't, no more than I would parse us based on whether we approved of the Roman Empire or not.

Ultimately Yahweh was the Israelite response to their hated rivals, the Canaanites, whose deity Ba'al was once the most powerful and expansive one around. So the Israelites borrowed a number of attributes from Ba'al to beef Yahweh up, until it was the strongest deity. Sacred stories of many ancient cultures intermingled constantly.

So we can say that today's God evolved from Yahweh. In the end, it's just giving credit to humanesque characters for the extraordinary achievements of the Sun and the Earth. It's not miles from politicians being apportioned credit or blame for global economic conditions. The driver is the same. Ego and solipsism.

Is there consciousness within other complex systems in the universe? I'm open to it, though many aren't. If we lived within a conscious system, how would we know? In this, we need to be cautious of confirmation bias.

I think that there is an ever increasing need to differentiate, which is really the philosophers job, because the population and the powerful do not do that. The developments in thought that progressed through history have only ever been put forward by individuals and under threat of death, because every new paradigm was seen as threatening the old, which is why they were often kept under the cultural influence of the time. For example, the Old Testament Prophets were a contradicting force and tradition has it that they were all killed or incarcerated. Jesus, who picked up the thread of those dissidents, was also labelled a revolutionary and killed. His followers are said to have suffered the same fate at the hands of Roman and Greek authorities.

Progress was as threatening to the accusers of Socrates as it was to the accusers of Galileo or Copernicus, or as it is to a pampered population today, when faced with facts that do not suit them. We live in an extremely superficial and inconsequent time, considering how we go on about being an advanced species, and having science to guide us. But it has always been the same ...

212 BCE – Archimedes killed during the Siege of Syracuse by a Roman soldier despite orders that he should not be harmed.
43 BCE – Cicero while leaving his villa in Formiae was beheaded by two killers, allegedly sent by Marcus Antonius
415 – Hypatia was lynched by a mob of Christians.
526 – Boethius was strangled on the orders of the Ostrogoth king Theodoric by whom he was employed.
1600 – Giordano Bruno was burnt by the Inquisition.
1619 – Lucilio Vanini was also burnt by the Inquisition.
1940 – Leon Trotsky was assassinated on Stalin's orders in Mexico, by Soviet agent Ramón Mercader, along with most of his family.
1941 – Henri Bergson died of pneumonia in occupied Paris, which he supposedly contracted after standing in a queue for several hours in order to register as a Jew.
1941 – Kurt Grelling was killed by the Nazis.
1941 – Edith Stein died in a gas chamber in the Auschwitz concentration camp.
1942 – Georges Politzer was executed by the Nazis.
1943 – Simone Weil starved herself to death.
1944 – Jean Cavaillès was shot by the Gestapo.
1944 – Marc Bloch was shot by the Gestapo for his work in the French Resistance.
1944 – Giovanni Gentile was murdered by communist partisans.
1945 – Dietrich Bonhoeffer was executed by hanging.
1945 – Gerhard Gentzen was detained in a prison camp by the Russian forces, where he died of malnutrition.
1945 – Johan Huizinga died in De Steeg in Gelderland, near Arnhem, where he was held in detention by the Nazis.
1945 – Miki Kiyoshi died in prison; he had been imprisoned after helping a friend on the run from the authorities.
1948 – Mohandas Gandhi was shot and killed by a Hindu zealot.
And many more ...

Regarding consciousness within other complex systems in the universe, I'm open to it as well ...

1553 Astronomer Michael Servetus lured into the clutches of John Calvin and burned as a heretic.

[EricPH]

considering how we go on about being an advanced species, and having science to guide us.

Science is no more of a guide than religion, we are lead on the path we choose to follow. Science tells us of the hazards of smoking, obesity, heroin, etc, millions of us ignore the science. Thanks to science we have moved on from swords to bombs. Science is possibly neutral, we choose how to use it for medicine or bombs.

1553 Astronomer Michael Servetus lured into the clutches of John Calvin and burned as a heretic.

The greatest commandments are to love God and our neighbours, we can do nothing greater. We are even commanded to love and pray for our enemies. If we choose to ignore the teachings of Jesus, that leaves us free to burn heretics.

Religion should lead to justice for the poor, the oppressed, widows, refugees, and for peace.

[JackDaydream]

Jack, I don't see why godlessness should equate to a wasteland. In some ways, today is one of the very best times in human history to be alive. Most of us on the forum will live in a state of luxury beyond the dreams of Roman emperors, sans the slaves. Speaking of which, much of the world has been built on slavery. During much of history, slavery was not seen as cruel and abhorrent, just normal. That was back when we lived in a godly oasis rather than this godless wasteland, yes?

The decay you sense is the breakdown of systems under the weight of unprecedented human populations.

I am not sure that it is the sense of 'godlessness' in itself that leads to a wasteland. My idea of being in a cultural 'wasteland' goes back to TS Eliot, based on the twentieth century. This was a time when there were so many shifts in meaning, and it was the time in which cultural relativism was developing. The wasteland is more of about many voices and a sense of the individual person being insignificant. Where the aspect of godlessness may come in is about there being no underlying source of guidance and existential void.

As for whether it is the worst or best of times, in some ways human beings have so many luxuries but there are so many incrongruities. For example, obesity may occur in Western society amongst those who are less wealthy because they are trying to survive, and less able to afford to eat healthily than those who are more secure financially.

Also, in this time of supposed 'luxury' people are expected to be able to 'perform' almost like machines, possibly at the cost of valuing the individual as a human being. So, it may be like a loss of 'soul', especially as many would find the idea of 'soul' as ridiculous. It is the age of 'self', which corresponds with individualism, even though that is fading into people being mere meaningless numbers. Population growth is important here as people fade into the masses.