Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belindi]

America society is famous for its huge prisons and enormous numbers of prisoners. There is social need, especially when paranoia is endemic in a population, to maintain a pool of potential fighting men and women who would rather risk their lives in a war than continue as prisoners in the USA.

[Pattern-chaser]

America society is famous for its huge prisons and enormous numbers of prisoners. There is social need, especially when paranoia is endemic in a population, to maintain a pool of potential fighting men and women who would rather risk their lives in a war than continue as prisoners in the USA.

I think armies already do sufficient harm, without introducing unwilling —and perhaps unable? — recruits, don't you?

[LuckyR]

America society is famous for its huge prisons and enormous numbers of prisoners. There is social need, especially when paranoia is endemic in a population, to maintain a pool of potential fighting men and women who would rather risk their lives in a war than continue as prisoners in the USA.

Huh? All felons are excluded from military service. Some on the low end of crime can apply for a Moral Waiver to join the military but it is a long process that is far from guaranteed.

[LuckyR]

I believe that society truly needs prisons. The prisons can then be separated into different levels depending on the crime committed. For example, people who commit violent crimes such as murder and arson should have their prison different from those who commit non-violent crimes or incidental crimes. The different levels of prisons should be accompanied by a difference in the conditions within these prisons.

So in your imagined tiered system would current average prison conditions be the "easy" or the "hard" prison?

[Belindi]

America society is famous for its huge prisons and enormous numbers of prisoners. There is social need, especially when paranoia is endemic in a population, to maintain a pool of potential fighting men and women who would rather risk their lives in a war than continue as prisoners in the USA.

I think armies already do sufficient harm, without introducing unwilling —and perhaps unable? — recruits, don't you?

Of course! Nevertheless wars happen, and it seems to be easy to indoctrinate people into obeying their political masters. As for "unable", it's not inordinately difficult to learn to kill .

The US prisons allegedly are also run as commercially viable businesses with a poorly paid labour force.

[Pattern-chaser]

America society is famous for its huge prisons and enormous numbers of prisoners. There is social need, especially when paranoia is endemic in a population, to maintain a pool of potential fighting men and women who would rather risk their lives in a war than continue as prisoners in the USA.

I think armies already do sufficient harm, without introducing unwilling —and perhaps unable? — recruits, don't you?

Of course! Nevertheless wars happen, and it seems to be easy to indoctrinate people into obeying their political masters. As for "unable", it's not inordinately difficult to learn to kill.

By "unable", I meant to communicate that there are some who cannot and could not bring themselves to kill another living being.

The US prisons allegedly are also run as commercially viable businesses with a poorly paid labour force.

"Allegedly"? I thought the US Justice System was a for-profit organisation, knowingly and deliberately fashioned to be so? Just like all US institutions: not only is it that only profit matters, but also that nothing except profit matters.

Rule 1. The pursuit of personal wealth is the only rule.
Rule 2. Refer to Rule 1.

[Belindi]

America society is famous for its huge prisons and enormous numbers of prisoners. There is social need, especially when paranoia is endemic in a population, to maintain a pool of potential fighting men and women who would rather risk their lives in a war than continue as prisoners in the USA.

Huh? All felons are excluded from military service. Some on the low end of crime can apply for a Moral Waiver to join the military but it is a long process that is far from guaranteed.

I accept your information. I am trying to think of a rationale for huge numbers of felons. It's a reasonable assumption that societies adapt to economic circumstances and if sections of the population are surplus to requirements they will be outlawed and employed only if the occasion is urgent enough. I must suppose then that American law protects the rights of felons against economic circumstances.

[LuckyR]

America society is famous for its huge prisons and enormous numbers of prisoners. There is social need, especially when paranoia is endemic in a population, to maintain a pool of potential fighting men and women who would rather risk their lives in a war than continue as prisoners in the USA.

Huh? All felons are excluded from military service. Some on the low end of crime can apply for a Moral Waiver to join the military but it is a long process that is far from guaranteed.

I accept your information. I am trying to think of a rationale for huge numbers of felons. It's a reasonable assumption that societies adapt to economic circumstances and if sections of the population are surplus to requirements they will be outlawed and employed only if the occasion is urgent enough. I must suppose then that American law protects the rights of felons against economic circumstances.

Yes, the large number of incarcerated in the US is an anomaly in the West. But why is that and what's the alternative? Letting prisoners outso there sre even more criminals on the loose toply their trade: crime; doesn't seem like an improvement. Arredting and prosecuting fewer criminals is equally bad. Changing the laws so less things are against the law is even worse.

Waving a Magic Wand to make potential criminals choose a different, legitimate path seems great, yet impossible.

What's going on elsewhere? Are their criminals able to avoid getting caught/convicted? Are they spending less time incarcerated? Are there just fewer criminals?

[Belindi]

UK, Australia, and New Zealand also have some private prisons.

https://phys.org/news/2020-09-privatize ... ences.html

Judges are more likely to send criminals to prison when the prisons admit unlimited numbers of prisoners. When profit is the motive, more prisoners mean less welfare and fewer, badly paid prison guards.More prisoners also mean more subsidies for the owners of the prisons.

The most prominent corruption example is the 'kids for cash' scandal in Pennsylvania, where two judges were bribed by a private prison company to give harsher sentences to juvenile offenders instead of probation to increase occupancy at for-profit detention centers.

op cit

[Pattern-chaser]

Yes, the large number of incarcerated in the US is an anomaly in the West. But why is that and what's the alternative? Letting prisoners outso there sre even more criminals on the loose toply their trade: crime; doesn't seem like an improvement. Arredting and prosecuting fewer criminals is equally bad. Changing the laws so less things are against the law is even worse.

Waving a Magic Wand to make potential criminals choose a different, legitimate path seems great, yet impossible.

What's going on elsewhere? Are their criminals able to avoid getting caught/convicted? Are they spending less time incarcerated? Are there just fewer criminals?

In some cases —I'm not sure in what proportion — people turn to criminality because they have no other way to survive. There are always reasons why people turn to criminality, and in the long run, the only way to reduce criminal behaviour is to help make it unnecessary. This won't banish criminality, of course, but it's the only way to reduce such behaviour that I can think of.

After all, we have all seen the failure of the US's vengeful approach. Their 'War on Crime', we could call it. It has failed. Utterly. We need to investigate alternatives if we are genuinely serious about improving things, not just about vengeance.

[Belindi]

Societies need prisons for enriching the lives and consciousnesses of criminals, and then they'd truly be "correctional facilities". But in fact ' correctional facility' is a euphemism and all prisons are punitive.

Practically and achievably what free citizens can do in a democracy is ensure that prisons are places where criminals are given chances to be good citizens through education, training, and personal safety while incarcerated. For obvious reasons for-profit private prisons must be ruled out.

[LuckyR]

Yes, the large number of incarcerated in the US is an anomaly in the West. But why is that and what's the alternative? Letting prisoners outso there sre even more criminals on the loose toply their trade: crime; doesn't seem like an improvement. Arredting and prosecuting fewer criminals is equally bad. Changing the laws so less things are against the law is even worse.

Waving a Magic Wand to make potential criminals choose a different, legitimate path seems great, yet impossible.

What's going on elsewhere? Are their criminals able to avoid getting caught/convicted? Are they spending less time incarcerated? Are there just fewer criminals?

In some cases —I'm not sure in what proportion — people turn to criminality because they have no other way to survive. There are always reasons why people turn to criminality, and in the long run, the only way to reduce criminal behaviour is to help make it unnecessary. This won't banish criminality, of course, but it's the only way to reduce such behaviour that I can think of.

After all, we have all seen the failure of the US's vengeful approach. Their 'War on Crime', we could call it. It has failed. Utterly. We need to investigate alternatives if we are genuinely serious about improving things, not just about vengeance.

Perhaps living in a consumer centered society promotes property ctimes to acquire frivolous goods, that potential criminals elsewhere choose to do without.

[TheSageOfMainStreet]

Societies need to have prisons but on the other hand societies need to equitable law and judgement systems.I mean that there should be moderation: 'proportionality principle '.. So many constitutional systems assuming this principle in theory but in practice, they are generally unsuccesful.

We Don't Need More Prisons; We Need More Morgues

Felons are mutant enemies of the human race and must be executed immediately after the first time they get convicted, or be killed in defense of society by their intended victims. Even greater enemies legislate to turn them loose on us, so they and their sons must have all power to do that taken away from them. Under a permissive and degenerate society such as Terminal America, criminals are actually state-sponsored terrorists.

[LuckyR]

Societies need to have prisons but on the other hand societies need to equitable law and judgement systems.I mean that there should be moderation: 'proportionality principle '.. So many constitutional systems assuming this principle in theory but in practice, they are generally unsuccesful.

We Don't Need More Prisons; We Need More Morgues

Felons are mutant enemies of the human race and must be executed immediately after the first time they get convicted, or be killed in defense of society by their intended victims. Even greater enemies legislate to turn them loose on us, so they and their sons must have all power to do that taken away from them. Under a permissive and degenerate society such as Terminal America, criminals are actually state-sponsored terrorists.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Pattern-chaser]

We Don't Need More Prisons; We Need More Morgues

Felons are mutant enemies of the human race and must be executed immediately after the first time they get convicted, or be killed in defense of society by their intended victims. Even greater enemies legislate to turn them loose on us, so they and their sons must have all power to do that taken away from them. Under a permissive and degenerate society such as Terminal America, criminals are actually state-sponsored terrorists.

How do you deal with the number of incorrect convictions? Even death-row cases, which should surely be examined in the greatest detail, given the consequences of a Guilty verdict, result in many innocent people being imprisoned. I assume those innocents do not conform to your description of "mutants", so what about them? What if you were one of them?