Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[blakelewis25]

This idea is contributed to the John Titor story that appeared on the anomolies site in 2001. I am extremely skeptical of the validity of said story but I am open to the possibility that what he said was true. This aside, it does raise an interesting theoretical question which is that if time travel were possible could all the events of the bible be explained through this future technology? I'm no biblical scholar but I know that the Christian church is mainly based on the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and a host of miracles that basically put the "fear of God" into people of the time. For instance, the miraclulous birth of Jesus could now be explained with advanced in artificial insemenation. The great flood could possibly be explained by future advances in weather control and cloud seeding being studied today. If time travel were possible, the resurrection of Jesus could be easily explained.

The point isn't an attempt to debunk Christianity but rather to look these event objectively to try to explain these phenomena through modern (or potential future) science. If these ideas can be proven the philosophical question then emerges that people further ahead on our worldline are going through a great deal of trouble to convince us to follow certain moral principles for what purpose? My main question is : Do you believe that through science a literal as well as philosophical translation of the bible could be possible?

[Akhenaten]

Actually, the "Bible" had nothing to do with Yeshua Ben Yosef ("Jesus" was not his name, and those who think that an Arabic Hebrew was named an Italian/Latin styled name needs to be smacked... thats most christians). The 'New Testiment' was about his life and works, but in comparison to the old testiment, its a penny article in the saver. Also, do not forget, litterally hundreds of tomes and scrolls were removed from the bible at the Council of Nicea.

The Drake Equation, which is accepted in astrophysics as valid, tells us that there is between 10,000 to 13,000 advanced species in our own milky way. The equation basically was designed to determin the variables needed for life on earth, and then applied to the numbers of our galaxy... thus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

Now then, with this in mind, also noting that in the 14.9 billion year history of our universe, we evolved roughly 20-500 million years ago, a half of a billion at a stretch, at most. Therefore, there is 14.3 billion years inwhich other civilizations have had time to rise and fall. The universe was stable enough for our sort of life after a meer billion years of expansion... therefore there has been 13.4 billion years, at the least, that other life has had time to evolve and surpass us.

All ancient cultures tell of visitors from the sky, often drawing circular or cigar shaped ships, even in cave drawings (again, you can look them up). Whether by Chariots of Fire (like that that took Issac and Jesus, in a ray of light), or by 'moving clouds' such as the one that hovered over the Hebrews for nearly 40 years, constantly... during the day it shielded them from the sun, at night it lit up and showed them their way.

It would be very easy for an advanced species, whether by purpose or by sheer accident, to have been taken as Godly to our people. To be honest, if I went back in time with a cigarrette lighter, a gun, and a med kit, I would be a god as well. Its not really that hard... imagine an ancient roman legion being frightened off by a speaker system... you know voices from no where, as loud as many waters and issuing forth from strange trumpets, as is often described in the bible.

CHristians are alien worshipers, the bloody buggers.

[Belinda]

Do you believe that through science a literal as well as philosophical translation of the bible could be possible?

No. A main tenet of the Christian myth is that God created all the laws of nature(or of science).

A miracle involves the suspension of a law of science or nature. It is inconceivable the the creator of heaven and earth does conjuring tricks.

[mark black]

Occam's razor is an epistemological principle which states: the simplest adequate explanation is the best.

Supposing the existence of time travel and/or aliens to explain fantastical bible stories is the height of epistemological lunacy.

Consider depictions of Jesus's birth painted by 15th century artists. Did the baby actually glow with an ethereal light? If he had done it wouldn't have been too difficult for Herod and his men to pick him out of a line-up, would it? No, the shining halo around the infants head is retrospective deification - and so is all the rest.

Akhenaten - your alter rail is the fence around Area 51. Same principle, a seprated space representing arcane knowledge supporting the power structure. You want to believe, but it's too far. Requiring an infinite amount of energy in every moment, 186,000 miles per second, 60 seconds per minuet, 60 minuets per hour, day in day out, week after month after year, for four and a half years to reach the nearest star. You might just as well believe in God.

mb.

[johnny rocket]

If I were a squirrel would I eat cough drops?

[Akhenaten]

Actually, Mark Black, that is what I do believe.

In an infinitely dimensioned space (or one so large it may as well be), I must assume nearly infinite probability as there is nearly infinite space and time for it to exist in. Upon this logic, some-where, some-when there is a flat planet flying about that the people believes is round... and tomorrow an explorer falls off the edge sailing west.

Also, you mistake the concept of Alien, as I meant as implied, Entity. In an nearly infinitely dimensioned space, and the probabilities there-in, the concept of a being or entity that would pocess prowesses and modes of travel that we could not comprehend would very surely have to exist. Oddly the concept of Angels arriving in flaming chariots from the sky seems, atleast by Occum's Razor that you had brought up, to be a mis-representation of a real act. As the existence of Rameses, Moses, 'Jesus', and other such biblical figures have been archaeologically proven to exist, even accepted by neigh-sayers, we can assume that they were making an attempt at explaining things that they truly saw. Incidently, the correlations between biblical myth and modern day technology is almost blatant enough to give you a black eye, let alone how an even more advanced species would have been misconstrued by a highly imaginative species... us. God may simply be the commander of a ship who, by random chance, have discovered what we are very near to... physical immortality. In the early bible they say that man walked with God... litterally. There was no biblical prowess or real power given to 'God' in the first few books... only things that can be easily attributed to technology.

What you are suggesting is that in ancient times, nearly 1/10th of the population of the world had a mass hallucination, including the many Pharohs who documented these things. Today, one out of every 3 individuals have seen something in the sky that they cannot, for the life of them, explain. Your usage of Occum's Razor, to explain that nearly 4 billion people are hallucinating the same things, doesnt seem to fit.

Am I saying that Christianity or Christian perspective on, really, anything is correct?

No.

Am I saying that to dismiss a phenomena that has existed since the dawn of mankind, I.E. Gods, out of hand because you cannot see it is half imbecilic?

Yes.

In a light spectrum that ranges from below 30 HZ to over 2.9 * 10^27 HZ, we see between 400nm and 700nm of this. We are half blind, wearing a blindfold and beer goggles, in a basement, and trying to say that we can disprove it because we cannot see it? How infantile.

[mark black]

Akhenaten,

First off, let's cut the insults - there's no need to be throwing around words like 'infantile' and 'imbecilic.' I'm not insulting you just because I disagree with you. I understand your ideas because I have entertained these ideas in my younger days - attempting to explain a Biblical account of history with reference to aliens. But all the so-called evidence is circumstantial, and we read into it what we want to see. In the end, and after much wasted effort I realized that evolution explains better why cultures are so similar the world over, why they all have a concept of God, why they all built big stone structures...and so on.

If I follow your logic here - I think you are suggesting that in an infinite time and space, everything that CAN exist, does exist. (Maybe you mean parallel universes - but this is another assumption without evidence barred by Occam's Razor, and therefore epistemic fantasy.) It's important to emphasise CAN. Because of the physical dymanics of time, space, energy and matter - a flat planet CANNOT exist. And nor can many other things we might imagine.

You say:

As the existence of Rameses, Moses, 'Jesus', and other such biblical figures have been archaeologically proven to exist, even accepted by neigh-sayers, we can assume that they were making an attempt at explaining things that they truly saw.

This is a false assumption. It just doesn't follow from the fact, that because Biblical characters were based on real people - the whole of the Bible is an attempt to explian what 'they truly saw.' There are many different genre's of writing - from factual reporting through political propoganda to outright fantasy. Read Homer's Odyssey, and consider that this was written a thousand years before the Bible. These are not unsophisticated people who would misinterpret, or be unable to explain what they 'truly' saw.

It's also important to remember that the Bible is a political document - and politicians lie. They distort the reality to favour themselves. Julius Ceaser wasn't really the Son of Jupiter. He took the title in order to justify his rule with reference to God(s). You are beginning with an idea you wish to be true and attemting to find evidence for it.

All your so-called evidence fits into this pattern - but it's a wrongful approach to knowledge. You must begin with what is known, not what you'd like to discover.

mb.

[Akhenaten]

I wasn't meaning the insults to be directed personally, I was refereing to the concepts themselves.

No, the way I am looking at this is honestly by a simple math concept that likely only makes any sense to me... I will list the variables:

A = The Volume of the universe (atleast what we can see of it, since every time we improve our telescopes there is more out there).

B = The Volume of our solar system.

C = The total ammount of activities (fundamental particles on up) performed by our solar system in its 10 or so billion history.

D = The Percentage of universal volume filled by our solar system.

E = Total Possible Variables that could happen, per geometric point, within the laws of physics, in our solar system, at every point in time.

F = The total possible variables that could happen, per geometric point, within the laws of physics, in the volume of the universe at every point in time.

Z = The total ammount of possible things that have taken place in the volume of the universe over the past 14+ billion years.

The probability ratio then comes to:

1 Google * 10^Google For | Every Variable to have taken place.

1 Google * 10^Google Against | Every Variable to have taken place.

On this precept, a planet can be flat.

Granted with no degrees in advanced theoretical mathematics, I am estimating.

[mark black]

Akahnaten,

Please pardon my absence. It's all very well to show, statistically, that the probability of a flat planet is not zero - but these mathematical gymnastics do not account for the physical dynamics of reality. I don't have an advanced degree in math either, so I don't know how it would go, but it's plain to see that some mathematical probabilities are barred by physical forces, in this case gravitation. Planets, and soap bubbles are round for a reason. Probability math makes no account of these reasons. It's therefore wrong to assume that everything that might be imagined to exist - exists. Rather, everything that can exist given the nature of the universe, exists. On that premise, I think we can discount flat planets.

mb.

[Akhenaten]

I can state this number with absolute certainty... we can see less than 0.00000000000000001% of our current physical domains, universally speaking.... atleast with any detail. This number is an abstract, as we can't see our next star system with much detail, and realitivly its rather close.

My proposition isn't so much that infinite probability exists, my position is that we know so very little about the universe that even those with a PH.D. are meerly guessing. Therefore, intrinsically, we have no idea what -is- possible out there. Please google Galactic Bubble.

[df544]

You have to understand FULLY the medium first before talking about anything in it.

What is the medium of the Bible?

Words.

The first thing then is to understand that words are representations of something, not that something itself. Put words together and you have to understand whether those words are allegory, fiction, non-fiction, novel, comedy, etc.

Can we fully understand the Bible, and in particular, the Gospels of Jesus Christ?

It depends with what type of consciousness you are investigating it with. With scientific consciousness, you have to go by written histories of which none can be found about Jesus.

As far as a time machine, this is not present-day science.

Fantasy-wise, with a time-machine I would go back to the time before the Big Bang.

[Charlemagne]

If anyone is serious about the title of this thread, the bridge between science and religion, read this:

https://catholicinsight.com/science-and ... s-forever/

[Charlemagne]

Do you believe that through science a literal as well as philosophical translation of the bible could be possible?

No. A main tenet of the Christian myth is that God created all the laws of nature(or of science).

A miracle involves the suspension of a law of science or nature. It is inconceivable the the creator of heaven and earth does conjuring tricks.

It is inconceivable that with your own puny powers you should be able to limit the powers of the Creator of heaven and earth.

Isn't that a tad arrogant of you?

[MAYA EL]

Time travel will never be possible because time is a concept .
And I think the bible is a metaphysical and metaphorical book that talks about mankind's journey from mindless animal to complex higher being with a god mind and so every single story in the bible is just a story

[Charlemagne]

Time travel will never be possible because time is a concept .
And I think the bible is a metaphysical and metaphorical book that talks about mankind's journey from mindless animal to complex higher being with a god mind and so every single story in the bible is just a story

Do you mean a real-life story or a fictional story?