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Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
By ernestm
#428386
METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
2. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is conscious and wise, then:
2a. The Creator would not use a tool that does not meet the Creator's goals.
2b. Therefore evolution produces results that meet the Creator's goals.

Hence, rather than deciding on 'evidence' for a Creator whose intent we've already defined, we should deduce the nature of any conscious Creator from the way evolution works as a tool.

Result: The 'Bored Creator Theory' (VERSION 3)

If there is a Creator who intentionally used evolution as a tool, then it was 13.8 billion years before we showed up. Before us, there were oodles of stellar phenomena to experience. But the physical laws are rather automated. It would be pretty for a while. But like a baby watching clothes flop around inside a front-loading washing machine, eventually, a Creator would just get 'bored' of the swirling pretty colors around black holes and whatever. Here I put 'bored' in scare quotes, because this does not mean the Creator necessarily experiences boredom in any way we understand. Rather it indicates that consciousness has limited interest in completely predictable events after they have been observed some number of times.

A Creator would therefore want to see the actions of beings capable of making choices that are at least somewhat independent of physical mechanics. WHAT IS ACTUALLY NECESSARY FOR THAT? The creation of life is really the long pole, after which everything is fairly automatic. In 1925, Engels observed that a herd species only needs opposable thumbs connected to a brain for civilization to evolve. According to Marx's theory of dialectical materialism, after the physical evolution of our species, a new selection process starts, 'social evolution.'

* On dialectical materialism : Please note there is a difference between 'dialectical materialism' and 'historical materialism.' I am referring to dialectical materialism (see picture) While Marx proposed an entirely new political ideology based on it, and whatever opinions you have of the ideology, history to date completely substantiates Marx's dialectic.

If the purpose of a Creator was merely to create a herd species with hands and a brain, then quirks of evolution that otherwise could appear disproof of intelligent design become irrelevant. When one combines evolution with Marx's dialectical materialism and Engel's biological naturalism with evolution, a herd species with hands and a brain becomes all that is necessary and sufficient for a progressive civilization to develop that continually increases the freedom of choice for its individuals. Therefore, it is logical to deduce that the nature of any Creator, whether one exists or not, would be simply to enable that much development: a herd species with hands connected to a brain. There is an additional consideration for a complete dialectic: the social evolution of altruism. However, that introduces issues of what one ought to do. That is much more complicated, because as per Hume's Guillotine and Moore's naturalistic fallacy, there is no necessary connection between the way the universe physically is, and what free individuals should do. That is a deontological issue, and cannot be explored until the ontological basis for it.

Counterargument: Of course, one could argue that a Creator would not get 'bored' watching spinning lights in accordance with the laws of physics. That would be contrary to our own experience of consciousness, but that is the counterargument to the 'Bored Creator' argument.

That leads to the final question: how much more enable the development of a herd species with hands and a brain does a Bored Creator need to do, in order to find more of interest in the Universe?

A wise intelligence doesn't do unnecessary work

And here is the crux of the matter. To be of interest to divine consciousness, how much would it matter exactly what life is like on our planet, or how the rest of creation is manifest?

Consider for example, the periodic table. After constructing valences to enable organic molecules and heavy matter, there are some slots left over, and additional energy levels. So maybe a Creator played around with noble gasses so they would have pretty colors when energized, for example, but at some point of adding any such features, the consequences of the rest of the periodic table become arbitrary additions. How much would a 'bored' Creator, seeking something interesting in a universe, actually want to plan its nature? Would it not be more interesting to such a being to leave some parts of the universe not entirely planned, to increase later enjoyment in seeing how the design works out?

Similarly, regarding galactic phenomena, a Creator might enjoy making black holes and nebula, but again, a wise creator wouldn't bother adding too much detail, and let much of it be arbitrary, so the results are actually unexpected, and therefore of more interest.

That would make far more sense in the universe as we know it. After all, wise people use tools so they don't need to do unnecessary work. The amount people credit even a hypothetical Being with the power to create a universe with less intelligence than a chimpanzee and less wisdom than an idiot are truly amazing.

Aside from such idle pastime, what would be the real interest of a Creator? To design life capable of independent choice. For that, we know the periodic table needs to have carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, and a variety of bits to kink molecules. So suppose a Creator went through the immense effort of producing the elements necessary for life in the Big Bang. How much does the REST of the periodic table really matter? If the Creator is wise, and therefore doesn't expend unnecessary effort, some combination of elements to permit life is all that's necessary. The rest of the periodic table would be kind of arbitrary to the necessary goal.

The 'Lazy Creator' theory thus states that a Wise Creator would only do as much as is sufficient to enable the creation of life, and the evolution of a herd species with hands (something with 'opposable thumbs') connected to a brain. There are a few more conditions for the creation of life. For example, the universe needed to provide a PLACE for life to evolve, which as far as I know means an 'Earth analog' at the moment. Some think oceans are not necessary, so there is also thought that a 'Terrestial planet' would be sufficient.

The BEAUTY of this theory is that the normal complaints about 'intelligent design' no longer apply. A Lazy Creator did just enough to create life, plus some arbitrary additions to make the universe more interesting, and threw the switch on the Big Bang....

Conclusion: The 'Wiser Designer' Argument

Hegelian Dialectic advances beyond the dialectical materialism of Marx to define a continual evolution of new conceptual ideas, named noumena by Kant. In Hegelian dialectics, the synthesis of any idea from a thesis and opposing antithesis creates a new thesis, which again has an antithesis, resulting in a new synthesis, and so on. The 'Lazy Creator' theory combines the antithetical notions of evolution and theism in a new synthesis, where the Creation is deliberately imperfect, with arbitrary characteristics beyond those necessary for the creation of a species capable of at least some choice independent from physical mechanics. Therefore, the theory produces a new thesis, and a new antithesis, and in the interests of brevity, I am ending this page as an argument, rather than another subsequent theory.

The Wiser Designer theory may produce other alternate theories based on the 'Bored' Designer argument, but the one I consider here is whether the above theory is insufficient, and would really only define a 'less wise' Designer. The likelihood of life evolving is extremely low, so a Wiser Designer might consider the evolution of life to the stage capable of independent conscious thought 'valuable,' and therefore would intercede in order to:

* Enable the development of civilization. For example, the Tyrannosaurus Rex had opposable thumbs, but was a predator, and the power of such creatures was so great, compared to the tiny primates of the time, there could have been no chance of apes evolving into humans. Of course, such evolution could still occur elsewhere, but the premise here is that a Wiser Designer would intercede after the creation of life just as much as necessary to ensure a herd species with hands connected to brains can evolve into a civilization. Thus one could hypothesize that the extinction event which ended the Jurassic Age was a divine intervention, in order that more interesting life could evolve.
* Enable unilateral freedom of will in civilization, by ensuring it evolves away from slavery. For example, the Egyptian dynasty was so powerful, a wiser Designer may have interceded by attempting to establish a rational civilization, based on justice, rather than slavery. But if the Judaic civilization was a consequence of that, a wiser Designer may have interceded to stop the Roman Empire from causing similar restrictions to freedom by its slavery too.
* Enable Natural Rights guaranteeing the abolition of slavery. Of particular current interest in this respect is Jeffersonian natural rights, which actually are based on a theistic argument from the Western Empiricist John Locke.

That is to say, while Marx and Engels together provide an argument for the development of a free civilization fairly automatically, it is still not totally automatic, and a Wiser Designer might anticipate such interventions would increase the interest of his Creation. MAYBE such a being would lazily throw a gamma ray here and there, to see if zebras with different-width stripes show up for example, perhaps not thinking about it too much or trying to be too accurate. One draws on the implication of the existence of evolution that the Creator is not interested in exact design, so intercessions beyond those necessary for independent thought would probably be deliberately imprecise, making the results more interesting.

ON THE OTHER HAND, such a 'wiser' Designer is beset with two problems:

* If the existence of God is undeniably provable, rather than a matter of belief only, then any intercession resulting in such proof would in effect place civilization in a slave condition to God, again preventing the operation of free will.
* Any intercession that restricts freedom of will more than the society in which it exists can enable is contrary to the Designer's interest. This is a more advanced consideration, needing further examination, at least from a philosophical perspective.

Thus there are reasons why some may argue that a 'less wise' Designer is the best that a Creator can achieve.
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By Count Lucanor
#428388
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
False premise. By definition a creator makes new things, that weren't around before he/she created them. If he/she is a creator of everything, the creator of all the order in the universe, then he/she has the power to make his/her creations directly, without intermediate steps or helping tools. Having to make use of tools that he/she found already existing in the universe would deny him/her the status as creator of everything.

What follows after that premise is useless and can be ignored.
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
By ernestm
#428399
Count Lucanor wrote: November 14th, 2022, 10:10 pm
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
False premise. By definition a creator makes new things, that weren't around before he/she created them. If he/she is a creator of everything, the creator of all the order in the universe, then he/she has the power to make his/her creations directly, without intermediate steps or helping tools. Having to make use of tools that he/she found already existing in the universe would deny him/her the status as creator of everything.

What follows after that premise is useless and can be ignored.
By definition, a CONSCIOUS Creator exists in a domain of mind. Therefore, unless you are a fan of Berkeley's immaterialism, this universe is not a new Creation, but the product of a prior one. Which is about as much as your criticism deserves. lol.
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By 3017Metaphysician
#428443
Count Lucanor wrote: November 14th, 2022, 10:10 pm
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
False premise. By definition a creator makes new things, that weren't around before he/she created them. If he/she is a creator of everything, the creator of all the order in the universe, then he/she has the power to make his/her creations directly, without intermediate steps or helping tools. Having to make use of tools that he/she found already existing in the universe would deny him/her the status as creator of everything.

What follows after that premise is useless and can be ignored.
Nope! That argument seems self refuting, and most certainly a false dichotomy. Your premise is based upon the denial of scientific cause and effect, the causational properties from the information narrative. In other words, not only do you have to reconcile the emergence of the laws that govern biological creature's ex nihilo, but also the laws that govern material interactions.

You have to explain the emergence of all laws that govern the nature of all existence! In other words, a Creator can most certainly allow the freedom in nature to emerge as all part of a process between being and becoming. It's not either/or. Afterall, a creation event is a process that requires change, time, so on and so forth.

Keep trying!
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By 3017Metaphysician
#428445
Matter and 'meaning' viz. the laws:
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By Count Lucanor
#428467
ernestm wrote: November 15th, 2022, 2:33 am
Count Lucanor wrote: November 14th, 2022, 10:10 pm
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
False premise. By definition a creator makes new things, that weren't around before he/she created them. If he/she is a creator of everything, the creator of all the order in the universe, then he/she has the power to make his/her creations directly, without intermediate steps or helping tools. Having to make use of tools that he/she found already existing in the universe would deny him/her the status as creator of everything.

What follows after that premise is useless and can be ignored.
By definition, a CONSCIOUS Creator exists in a domain of mind.
No, that's not true. That's like saying that by definition a black horse exists in a domain of colors. An entity exists in the domain where its being can act or affect other entities.
ernestm wrote: November 15th, 2022, 2:33 am this universe is not a new Creation, but the product of a prior one.
By definition, a creation that is not new is a contradiction in terms. Something that is produced by X and is new, is a creation of X. Something that is produced by X and is not new, is just a reproduction of something that was created before.
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
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By Count Lucanor
#428471
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: November 14th, 2022, 10:10 pm
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
False premise. By definition a creator makes new things, that weren't around before he/she created them. If he/she is a creator of everything, the creator of all the order in the universe, then he/she has the power to make his/her creations directly, without intermediate steps or helping tools. Having to make use of tools that he/she found already existing in the universe would deny him/her the status as creator of everything.

What follows after that premise is useless and can be ignored.
Nope! That argument seems self refuting, and most certainly a false dichotomy. Your premise is based upon the denial of scientific cause and effect, the causational properties from the information narrative. In other words, not only do you have to reconcile the emergence of the laws that govern biological creature's ex nihilo, but also the laws that govern material interactions.
Nonsense. You went astray all by yourself. There's no denial of cause and effect, but a distinction between first and second causes. Also, I refuted ernestm's argument on the basis of its own logic, derived from the definitions used, that is, by dealing with analytic propositions, not synthetic ones as you posit. The existence of a first cause does not justify the existence of second causes, that is, of contingency, but even worse than that, the existence of a first cause does not imply the necessity of one particular second cause, as ernestm claimed.
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm You have to explain the emergence of all laws that govern the nature of all existence!
Hmm...no, I don't have to, but if you posit a creator, you certainly have to.
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm In other words, a Creator can most certainly allow the freedom in nature to emerge as all part of a process between being and becoming. It's not either/or. Afterall, a creation event is a process that requires change, time, so on and so forth.
If the product of a creator is detached from its creator, then there's a limit that separates the creator from its creation. This deity, having boundaries that define two different domains (one of the creator and one of its creation), would lack the divine power of omnipresence. Also, "freedom to emerge" implies indeterminism, but an entity that does not determine X, cannot be the creator of X.
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
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By 3017Metaphysician
#428492
Count Lucanor wrote: November 15th, 2022, 11:20 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: November 14th, 2022, 10:10 pm
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
False premise. By definition a creator makes new things, that weren't around before he/she created them. If he/she is a creator of everything, the creator of all the order in the universe, then he/she has the power to make his/her creations directly, without intermediate steps or helping tools. Having to make use of tools that he/she found already existing in the universe would deny him/her the status as creator of everything.

What follows after that premise is useless and can be ignored.
Nope! That argument seems self refuting, and most certainly a false dichotomy. Your premise is based upon the denial of scientific cause and effect, the causational properties from the information narrative. In other words, not only do you have to reconcile the emergence of the laws that govern biological creature's ex nihilo, but also the laws that govern material interactions.
Nonsense. You went astray all by yourself. There's no denial of cause and effect, but a distinction between first and second causes. Also, I refuted ernestm's argument on the basis of its own logic, derived from the definitions used, that is, by dealing with analytic propositions, not synthetic ones as you posit. The existence of a first cause does not justify the existence of second causes, that is, of contingency, but even worse than that, the existence of a first cause does not imply the necessity of one particular second cause, as ernestm claimed.

No. the basic apriori deductive argument is thus:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.


Your point about the interpretation of a 'creation event' is a non sequitur. And contingency has nothing to do with second causes. Contingency essentially means the world is ordered in the way that it is because it couldn't be otherwise. Hence, we must live in best of all possible worlds. The distinction(s) worth arguing in cosmology, considering other theories like Multiverse, is that it still doesn't explain what breaths fire into the Hawking equations. In other words, being that this world has been selected as the best of all possible worlds for life (to sustain all life forms, consciousness, etc.), doesn't explain all the why's of this existence.

3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm You have to explain the emergence of all laws that govern the nature of all existence!
Hmm...no, I don't have to, but if you posit a creator, you certainly have to.

Yep you do. Because it was you who made positive statement about what a "creator" does (i.e., its entities, properties, and qualities). You've put yourself in an untenable position of defending your claim. So please share your cosmological theory about those properties of a "creator" if you have one! Backpedaling?

3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm In other words, a Creator can most certainly allow the freedom in nature to emerge as all part of a process between being and becoming. It's not either/or. Afterall, a creation event is a process that requires change, time, so on and so forth.
If the product of a creator is detached from its creator, then there's a limit that separates the creator from its creation. This deity, having boundaries that define two different domains (one of the creator and one of its creation), would lack the divine power of omnipresence. Also, "freedom to emerge" implies indeterminism, but an entity that does not determine X, cannot be the creator of X.
Nope. How is there a 'detachment? 'In principle', a 'creator' can cause a creation event in time and outside of time (temporal time v. eternal time) and allow for both determinism and indeterminism as found in nature. That would be your definition of omnipotence. That notion of a supreme Being infers or implies a super-natural quality or property or initial event. Think of it this way, the enigma (or a logical antinomy) of something being natural as opposed to its opposite of super-natural exists for a reason. Otherwise, there would be no logical necessity for positing the concept of God in the first place. An 'omnipotent' God combines contradictory elements. Kind of like your own consciousness.

Again, if you make a statement of certainly relative a super-natural Being, you put yourself in a precarious position of making sense out of it. Thus far, your claims are not consistent with nature. Think in terms of logical possibility. There are things that are logically possible that exist, and things that are logically possible but don't yet exist. Then there are things that are logically impossible yet exist, like conscious existence and the processes of cognition.

Maybe think of relativity and how it's possible that time actually stops... . You have a phenomenon that involves something that exists in time, and something that exists outside of time.
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By Count Lucanor
#428540
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am
No. the basic apriori deductive argument is thus:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
The syllogism is valid, but the conclusion is false if any of the premises is false. There's no conclusive evidence of what is stated in the premises. Even as cosmologists theorize about the beginning of time and the universe (Hawking, the atheist, included), there are other (also theoretical) scenarios where this is not necessary.
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 amcontingency has nothing to do with second causes. Contingency essentially means the world is ordered in the way that it is because it couldn't be otherwise. Hence, we must live in best of all possible worlds.

As many of your wrong definitions, this one is too. If something is contingent, it could happen as well as it could not, therefore it is not necessary. What is produced by a first cause becomes the necessary effect of that first cause, but an array of second causes can only produce contingent effects in a non-deterministic system.
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 amThe distinction(s) worth arguing in cosmology, considering other theories like Multiverse, is that it still doesn't explain what breaths fire into the Hawking equations. In other words, being that this world has been selected as the best of all possible worlds for life (to sustain all life forms, consciousness, etc.), doesn't explain all the why's of this existence.
[/b]

Still completely irrelevant. Whatever happens to multiverse theories does not change the fact of evolution.
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm You have to explain the emergence of all laws that govern the nature of all existence!
Hmm...no, I don't have to, but if you posit a creator, you certainly have to.

Yep you do. Because it was you who made positive statement about what a "creator" does (i.e., its entities, properties, and qualities). You've put yourself in an untenable position of defending your claim. So please share your cosmological theory about those properties of a "creator" if you have one! Backpedaling?
You're still not getting it. Again: I don't have to explain the creation of X if I have not posited a creator of X. But ernestm proposed the existence of a creator of X, and I just said that by definition, for X to be a creation and for the creator to be a creator, X must be something that did not exist before. If you want to argue that something that already existed can be created, then go on and argue that, and let's see how far you can get.
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm In other words, a Creator can most certainly allow the freedom in nature to emerge as all part of a process between being and becoming. It's not either/or. Afterall, a creation event is a process that requires change, time, so on and so forth.
If the product of a creator is detached from its creator, then there's a limit that separates the creator from its creation. This deity, having boundaries that define two different domains (one of the creator and one of its creation), would lack the divine power of omnipresence. Also, "freedom to emerge" implies indeterminism, but an entity that does not determine X, cannot be the creator of X.
Nope. How is there a 'detachment? 'In principle', a 'creator' can cause a creation event in time and outside of time (temporal time v. eternal time)

An event that does not happen in time is literally not an event. "Outside of time" can only mean outside of the reference framework, but the sum of all reference frameworks still give you an all-encompassing framework that is the universe (defined as all that exists).
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am That would be your definition of omnipotence. That notion of a supreme Being infers or implies a super-natural quality or property or initial event. Think of it this way, the enigma (or a logical antinomy) of something being natural as opposed to its opposite of super-natural exists for a reason. Otherwise, there would be no logical necessity for positing the concept of God in the first place. An 'omnipotent' God combines contradictory elements. Kind of like your own consciousness.
It's good that you can reply to your own arguments. Yes, there's no logical necessity for positing the concept of God, and yes, the concept of an omnipotent god is contradictory.
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am Then there are things that are logically impossible yet exist, like conscious existence and the processes of cognition.
What? That is nonsense. There's nothing impossible about the existence of consciousness. There are living beings and they have body parts with neural functions. No mystery there.
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco Location: Panama
User avatar
By 3017Metaphysician
#428578
Count Lucanor wrote: November 16th, 2022, 6:17 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am
No. the basic apriori deductive argument is thus:

Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
The syllogism is valid, but the conclusion is false if any of the premises is false. There's no conclusive evidence of what is stated in the premises. Even as cosmologists theorize about the beginning of time and the universe (Hawking, the atheist, included), there are other (also theoretical) scenarios where this is not necessary.

Nope. Causation simply implies an ordered universe. A causal loop. To make your argument convincing you must demonstrate how complete chaos produces life.
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 amcontingency has nothing to do with second causes. Contingency essentially means the world is ordered in the way that it is because it couldn't be otherwise. Hence, we must live in best of all possible worlds.

As many of your wrong definitions, this one is too. If something is contingent, it could happen as well as it could not, therefore it is not necessary. What is produced by a first cause becomes the necessary effect of that first cause, but an array of second causes can only produce contingent effects in a non-deterministic system.

Nope, again. Contingency viz a creator/first cause implies the best of all possible worlds. Otherwise:

Every contingent fact has an explanation.
There is a contingent fact that includes all other contingent facts.
Therefore, there is an explanation of this fact.
This explanation must involve a necessary being.




3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 amThe distinction(s) worth arguing in cosmology, considering other theories like Multiverse, is that it still doesn't explain what breaths fire into the Hawking equations. In other words, being that this world has been selected as the best of all possible worlds for life (to sustain all life forms, consciousness, etc.), doesn't explain all the why's of this existence.
[/b]

Still completely irrelevant. Whatever happens to multiverse theories does not change the fact of evolution.

Of course. it doesn't change the fact that evolution only hypothesizes from an already existing ensemble of creatures, not the first one ex nihilo.

Keep trying Count!!

3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm You have to explain the emergence of all laws that govern the nature of all existence!
Hmm...no, I don't have to, but if you posit a creator, you certainly have to.

Yep you do. Because it was you who made positive statement about what a "creator" does (i.e., its entities, properties, and qualities). You've put yourself in an untenable position of defending your claim. So please share your cosmological theory about those properties of a "creator" if you have one! Backpedaling?
You're still not getting it. Again: I don't have to explain the creation of X if I have not posited a creator of X. But ernestm proposed the existence of a creator of X, and I just said that by definition, for X to be a creation and for the creator to be a creator, X must be something that did not exist before. If you want to argue that something that already existed can be created, then go on and argue that, and let's see how far you can get.

Nope. You put yourself in an untenable position of explaining the nature of all existing things. Hence, why there is something and not nothing and/or where material Singularity came from!

Keep Trying Countess!!!!

3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 15th, 2022, 1:23 pm In other words, a Creator can most certainly allow the freedom in nature to emerge as all part of a process between being and becoming. It's not either/or. Afterall, a creation event is a process that requires change, time, so on and so forth.
If the product of a creator is detached from its creator, then there's a limit that separates the creator from its creation. This deity, having boundaries that define two different domains (one of the creator and one of its creation), would lack the divine power of omnipresence. Also, "freedom to emerge" implies indeterminism, but an entity that does not determine X, cannot be the creator of X.
Nope. How is there a 'detachment? 'In principle', a 'creator' can cause a creation event in time and outside of time (temporal time v. eternal time)

An event that does not happen in time is literally not an event. "Outside of time" can only mean outside of the reference framework, but the sum of all reference frameworks still give you an all-encompassing framework that is the universe (defined as all that exists).

Nope. Basic cause and effect relate to a first cause(s)!

3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am That would be your definition of omnipotence. That notion of a supreme Being infers or implies a super-natural quality or property or initial event. Think of it this way, the enigma (or a logical antinomy) of something being natural as opposed to its opposite of super-natural exists for a reason. Otherwise, there would be no logical necessity for positing the concept of God in the first place. An 'omnipotent' God combines contradictory elements. Kind of like your own consciousness.
It's good that you can reply to your own arguments. Yes, there's no logical necessity for positing the concept of God, and yes, the concept of an omnipotent god is contradictory.

Sure, you mean just like relatively and QM? Or is the logically impossibility of conscious existence easier to parse?

Keep trying Count!

3017Metaphysician wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:41 am Then there are things that are logically impossible yet exist, like conscious existence and the processes of cognition.
What? That is nonsense. There's nothing impossible about the existence of consciousness. There are living beings and they have body parts with neural functions. No mystery there.
Are you sure? isn't it logically impossible to be dreaming about being on a beach while driving and crashing a car?

Keep trying Countess!
User avatar
By Greatest I am
#428607
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
2. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is conscious and wise, then:
2a. The Creator would not use a tool that does not meet the Creator's goals.
2b. Therefore evolution produces results that meet the Creator's goals.
1. On evolution as a tool.

That would make evolution intelligent. yet it's intelligent, --- if that word can be applied to a non-sentient system, --- and it's moral values are not God's.
Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end while Christianity had God creating us for our worst end.
Many more of us are to take the wide road to hell, while just a few make it on that narrow path.

2. Would a wise God create Satan and then as in Job 2;3, --- have her move him to do evil and sin, as God admits to be doing?

Nature seems a better God, numbers of saved souls wise than Yahweh.

What is the "Creator's goal", you speak of working for, ,---the good of the many or the good of the few?

Regards
DL
By ernestm
#428617
Greatest I am wrote: November 17th, 2022, 6:08 pm
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
2. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is conscious and wise, then:
2a. The Creator would not use a tool that does not meet the Creator's goals.
2b. Therefore evolution produces results that meet the Creator's goals.
1. On evolution as a tool.

That would make evolution intelligent. yet it's intelligent, --- if that word can be applied to a non-sentient system, --- and it's moral values are not God's.
Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end while Christianity had God creating us for our worst end.
Many more of us are to take the wide road to hell, while just a few make it on that narrow path.

2. Would a wise God create Satan and then as in Job 2;3, --- have her move him to do evil and sin, as God admits to be doing?

Nature seems a better God, numbers of saved souls wise than Yahweh.

What is the "Creator's goal", you speak of working for, ,---the good of the many or the good of the few?

Regards
DL
Well, I just heard someone say the Supreme Court is a witch hunt to oust Trump. Its going to be a very long, tediously stupid ride with accusations of wrongness changing daily, and one can no longer expect anything better from human communication anywhere.
User avatar
By 3017Metaphysician
#428633
ernestm wrote: November 17th, 2022, 10:56 pm
Greatest I am wrote: November 17th, 2022, 6:08 pm
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
2. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is conscious and wise, then:
2a. The Creator would not use a tool that does not meet the Creator's goals.
2b. Therefore evolution produces results that meet the Creator's goals.
1. On evolution as a tool.

That would make evolution intelligent. yet it's intelligent, --- if that word can be applied to a non-sentient system, --- and it's moral values are not God's.
Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end while Christianity had God creating us for our worst end.
Many more of us are to take the wide road to hell, while just a few make it on that narrow path.

2. Would a wise God create Satan and then as in Job 2;3, --- have her move him to do evil and sin, as God admits to be doing?

Nature seems a better God, numbers of saved souls wise than Yahweh.

What is the "Creator's goal", you speak of working for, ,---the good of the many or the good of the few?

Regards
DL
Well, I just heard someone say the Supreme Court is a witch hunt to oust Trump. Its going to be a very long, tediously stupid ride with accusations of wrongness changing daily, and one can no longer expect anything better from human communication anywhere.
Trumpism...that too, is nothing new under the sun. History may repeat itself!
User avatar
By Greatest I am
#428678
ernestm wrote: November 17th, 2022, 10:56 pm
Greatest I am wrote: November 17th, 2022, 6:08 pm
ernestm wrote: November 14th, 2022, 9:34 pm METHOD
1. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is intelligent, then the Creator would use evolution as a tool.
2. If there is a Creator, and the Creator is conscious and wise, then:
2a. The Creator would not use a tool that does not meet the Creator's goals.
2b. Therefore evolution produces results that meet the Creator's goals.
1. On evolution as a tool.

That would make evolution intelligent. yet it's intelligent, --- if that word can be applied to a non-sentient system, --- and it's moral values are not God's.
Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end while Christianity had God creating us for our worst end.
Many more of us are to take the wide road to hell, while just a few make it on that narrow path.

2. Would a wise God create Satan and then as in Job 2;3, --- have her move him to do evil and sin, as God admits to be doing?

Nature seems a better God, numbers of saved souls wise than Yahweh.

What is the "Creator's goal", you speak of working for, ,---the good of the many or the good of the few?

Regards
DL
Well, I just heard someone say the Supreme Court is a witch hunt to oust Trump. Its going to be a very long, tediously stupid ride with accusations of wrongness changing daily, and one can no longer expect anything better from human communication anywhere.
This reply must be for another.

That or you are afraid of moral talk.

Either way, a garbage reply.

Regards
DL
User avatar
By Sculptor1
#428684
The god concept as understood would have given us an utterly different nature.

Were you to define the character of a creator/creative force from nature you would describe something quite different from "god".

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