We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.
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Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?To assign a number value, we must first have something to assign it to. If the thing we try to assign it to if non-existent, the assignment will fail. Non-existent things don't exist, and so their attributes cannot exist as they can't have any. And so on.
We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:22 amThanks for the reply and clearing up some questions.Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?To assign a number value, we must first have something to assign it to. If the thing we try to assign it to if non-existent, the assignment will fail. Non-existent things don't exist, and so their attributes cannot exist as they can't have any. And so on.
We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.
As for E = mc^2, if m is zero, E is zero, and this says nothing at all about c, one way or the other. If time is stopped (as opposed to 'stuck' at zero), then there can be no velocity, and c is meaningless.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "zero-t".
Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:36 amIf there is no matter or energy as well as no space, then c is meaningless. Without 'space', there is no physical volume, so there can be no movement (velocity) within that non-existent 'space', so c is undefined.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:22 amThanks for the reply and clearing up some questions.Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?To assign a number value, we must first have something to assign it to. If the thing we try to assign it to if non-existent, the assignment will fail. Non-existent things don't exist, and so their attributes cannot exist as they can't have any. And so on.
We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.
As for E = mc^2, if m is zero, E is zero, and this says nothing at all about c, one way or the other. If time is stopped (as opposed to 'stuck' at zero), then there can be no velocity, and c is meaningless.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "zero-t".
By zero-t I refer to the cosmological notion as "before" the big bang. What can we expect in how c will behave in zero-t? if there is no matter or energy as well as no space, would c not be different in that it is not hampered to a finite value in the absence of E and m?
The Beast wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 2:24 pm Hello Whitedragon, Pattern.Can we create a universe?
I am getting hold of the idea by constructing a Euclidian box with the spacetime dimension z.
Axiom. Two objects cannot occupy the same space.
Objects are represented in the box as having mass and, in this box, massless objects do not exist. I might use my imagination with this primitive idea and insert at 0,0,0 a point called the Higgs. Massless particles will jet into the box by gaining mass at 0 0 0. Atoms, elements, compounds and finally visible to Physicalism as objects. I want to also create the limbo dimension to account for the timeline of particle combination. That is: there is a historical account but no mass. In this manner we call the limbo a virtual manifold. Next (why not) construct a box for all perceivable objects and reason about its contents. From a virtual manifold to a Euclidian box.
Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?We should not assign anything to nonexistent things, to be fair—not just numbers. Not even the words "nonexistent". For us to perceive them is to stay unloyal to their nonexistence. But it's our nature, so we can't help it!
We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.
GrayArea wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 4:53 pmThanks for the reply,Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?We should not assign anything to nonexistent things, to be fair—not just numbers. Not even the words "nonexistent". For us to perceive them is to stay unloyal to their nonexistence. But it's our nature, so we can't help it!
We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.
The Beast wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 4:18 pmThanks, a quaint answer, holding much truth.Can we create a universe?Sure. If there is enough love.
Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 27th, 2022, 3:53 amBecause we have to first recognize them before regarding them as "nonexistent". The value assignment is something that just comes naturally during this process I assume. Then again, if we truly wanted to grasp something nonexistent, we might as well not try to grasp it to begin with....GrayArea wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 4:53 pmThanks for the reply,Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from asigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?We should not assign anything to nonexistent things, to be fair—not just numbers. Not even the words "nonexistent". For us to perceive them is to stay unloyal to their nonexistence. But it's our nature, so we can't help it!
We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.
I agree that we cannot assign number values. I also agree that we should not assign the word non-existence to it.
If we can think of something that was non-existent, example m and E in zeto-t as a cosmological state, does that mean that we measure existence from two different temporal states, in that zero m and E denotes some form of existence or zero t? If not, why do we assign these values?
Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 6:59 am If we take a notion of something that doesn't exist, example, no matter or energy might have existed in zero-t conditions, can we say that the E =mc^2 is zero for E and m, or are we prohibited from assigning a number value to something that doesn't exist, and what would this mean for c?
We say that t is zero in zero t. By this argument, does it mean time exists, but just has a different property? If time does not exist, how can we assign a value to it, since the enigma of zero hasn't quite been solved.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:22 am To assign a number value, we must first have something to assign it to. If the thing we try to assign it to if non-existent, the assignment will fail. Non-existent things don't exist, and so their attributes cannot exist as they can't have any. And so on.
As for E = mc^2, if m is zero, E is zero, and this says nothing at all about c, one way or the other. If time is stopped (as opposed to 'stuck' at zero), then there can be no velocity, and c is meaningless.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "zero-t".
Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 11:36 am By zero-t I refer to the cosmological notion as "before" the big bang. What can we expect in how c will behave in zero-t? if there is no matter or energy as well as no space, would c not be different in that it is not hampered to a finite value in the absence of E and m?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 12:57 pm If there is no matter or energy as well as no space, then c is meaningless. Without 'space', there is no physical volume, so there can be no movement (velocity) within that non-existent 'space', so c is undefined.
If zero-t is 'before time', then all bets are off. What would that even mean?
Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 1:19 pm I guess the next logical question is, was there something other than E and m in zero-t? We stated that non-existence cannot have number values assigned. So if we assign zero to t, c, m, and E, that means we're dealing with existential physics, denoting existance pardoxes in that zero means these elements must exist since we've assigned values to them, albeit in different states or essence.Einsteinian physics prefers to look at things in the universe as spacetime entities. I.e. they have three physical dimensions — length, breadth, and height — and one time dimension. Your "zero-t" thought-experiment removes the time dimension entirely; time is non-existent.
Lastly, would abstract objects and possibility spaces exist in zero-t? If so, is consciousness also an abstract object or relating to abstract objects? Can existence in itself be an abstract object.
Whitedragon wrote: ↑August 26th, 2022, 1:19 pm We stated that non-existence cannot have number values assigned. So if we assign zero to t, c, m, and E...Zero is a number...
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