Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Pattern-chaser]

To my way of thinking, survival of the fittest leads to an immoral truth for mankind. Wealth and power aid the fittest for survival, so the ones with the biggest guns and greatest wealth benefit the most. They take what they want, at the expense of others. Hitler's Germany strived to be the fittest.

Hitler's Germany was proven to NOT be the fittest.

Nevertheless, they strove to be "the fittest", as stated.

[Ecurb]

Are we correctly understanding "fitness"? All of the powerful nations in the world are reaching (or have reached) Zero Population Growth. Meanwhile, it seems that Africa is the "fittest" continent for humans, in Darwinian terms.

So the rich an powerful are NOT "the best at surviving and procreating in the short term." On the contrary.

[Sculptor1]

To my way of thinking, survival of the fittest leads to an immoral truth for mankind. Wealth and power aid the fittest for survival, so the ones with the biggest guns and greatest wealth benefit the most. They take what they want, at the expense of others. Hitler's Germany strived to be the fittest.

Hitler's Germany was proven to NOT be the fittest.

Nevertheless, they strove to be "the fittest", as stated.

What is your point?

The point I was making is the many people of the time - not just Germans regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth, and many still do.

[Good_Egg]

Are we correctly understanding "fitness"?

"Survival of the fittest" started out, it seems to me, as a description of how nature works, with no implied moral approval or disapproval. In this description, animals and plants follow their genetic programming, they don't make rational choices. And this programming acts to serve the good of the species rather than make things comfortable for the individual members of the species.

A certain level of altruism - a disposition to help other members of one's own species - is entirely consistent with this description. It has "species survival value".

So it is inaccurate to equate this concept with a creed of ruthless individualism.

If you try to translate that description into an ethic, you can end up in several different places.

Promoting the increase of one's race or class or kin could conceivably be harmful to prospects for the species as a whole. Promoting population increase in a finite world isn't necessarily a good species survival strategy. Circumstances change, so retaining in the population skillsets that are not currently very useful could be a good strategy.

[Pattern-chaser]

Hitler's Germany strived to be the fittest.

Hitler's Germany was proven to NOT be the fittest.

Nevertheless, they strove to be "the fittest", as stated.

What is your point?

???

[EricPH]

The point I was making is the many people of the time - not just Germans regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth, and many still do.

I agree with you, it is not just Germans who regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth. America, Russia and China would all love to be the fittest. I can't imagine what would happen if this was put to the test.

[Sculptor1]

Hitler's Germany strived to be the fittest.

Hitler's Germany was proven to NOT be the fittest.

Nevertheless, they strove to be "the fittest", as stated.

What is your point?

???

Well?
When you butt into another conversation you are usually bound to miss the relevance

[Sculptor1]

The point I was making is the many people of the time - not just Germans regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth, and many still do.

I agree with you, it is not just Germans who regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth. America, Russia and China would all love to be the fittest. I can't imagine what would happen if this was put to the test.

So rolling back to the subject of "eternal moral truths"....
I think the idea is bogus, but if I had to nominate one that would be it.
Not that I would recommend it.

[Belindi]

The point I was making is the many people of the time - not just Germans regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth, and many still do.

I agree with you, it is not just Germans who regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth. America, Russia and China would all love to be the fittest. I can't imagine what would happen if this was put to the test.

So rolling back to the subject of "eternal moral truths"....
I think the idea is bogus, but if I had to nominate one that would be it.
Not that I would recommend it.

And yet, neither Eric nor Sculptor could have claimed what they did claim unless each of them had an eye to truth itself.

[Sculptor1]

The point I was making is the many people of the time - not just Germans regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth, and many still do.

I agree with you, it is not just Germans who regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth. America, Russia and China would all love to be the fittest. I can't imagine what would happen if this was put to the test.

So rolling back to the subject of "eternal moral truths"....
I think the idea is bogus, but if I had to nominate one that would be it.
Not that I would recommend it.

And yet, neither Eric nor Sculptor could have claimed what they did claim unless each of them had an eye to truth itself.

Here's the "truth"
You are confusing two completely different things. There is something that we can agree is "true", and then there is a vague and diffuse concept "eternal moral truth".
This phrase is effectively a oxymoron. Morality have everything in common with subjective values, whilst truth is a concept searching for the objective.

[EricPH]

There is something that we can agree is "true", and then there is a vague and diffuse concept "eternal moral truth".

If you were to drop the words truth and eternal, then we are left with moral. How would you search for a moral concept that has been of benefit to mankind throughout our history, and would also benefit future generations? Survival of the fittest has been suggested. This means having power over those who are less fit, slavery comes to mind, our history with slavery has been savage. The fittest and most powerful have a wonderful life at the expense of the less fit.

My understanding of morals is more to do with kindness and helping others.

[Sculptor1]

There is something that we can agree is "true", and then there is a vague and diffuse concept "eternal moral truth".

If you were to drop the words truth and eternal, then we are left with moral. How would you search for a moral concept that has been of benefit to mankind throughout our history, and would also benefit future generations? Survival of the fittest has been suggested. This means having power over those who are less fit, slavery comes to mind, our history with slavery has been savage. The fittest and most powerful have a wonderful life at the expense of the less fit.

My understanding of morals is more to do with kindness and helping others.

No, morals are not about "kindness and helping others."
You are just preloading the term with your personal judgement. Morality is about rules and behaviours that are right and wrong. "kindness and helping others." is often seen as wrong in some moral schemes, particularly the one we were currently discussing.

[Belindi]

I agree with you, it is not just Germans who regarded Survival of the Fittest and an eternal moral truth. America, Russia and China would all love to be the fittest. I can't imagine what would happen if this was put to the test.

So rolling back to the subject of "eternal moral truths"....
I think the idea is bogus, but if I had to nominate one that would be it.
Not that I would recommend it.

And yet, neither Eric nor Sculptor could have claimed what they did claim unless each of them had an eye to truth itself.

Here's the "truth"
You are confusing two completely different things. There is something that we can agree is "true", and then there is a vague and diffuse concept "eternal moral truth".
This phrase is effectively a oxymoron. Morality have everything in common with subjective values, whilst truth is a concept searching for the objective.

I agree that 'truth' means either subjective truth or objective truth or, if I confuse those, both objective and subjective truth.

However, I suggest both Sculptor and Eric psychologically while aiming at objective truths are doing so because their unspoken stance is towards objective truth. NB I would not claim that objective truth is definable. Nor would I claim that all men stand to face indefinable objective truth as some men psychologically prefer lies.

[Sculptor1]

So rolling back to the subject of "eternal moral truths"....
I think the idea is bogus, but if I had to nominate one that would be it.
Not that I would recommend it.

And yet, neither Eric nor Sculptor could have claimed what they did claim unless each of them had an eye to truth itself.

Here's the "truth"
You are confusing two completely different things. There is something that we can agree is "true", and then there is a vague and diffuse concept "eternal moral truth".
This phrase is effectively a oxymoron. Morality have everything in common with subjective values, whilst truth is a concept searching for the objective.

I agree that 'truth' means either subjective truth or objective truth or, if I confuse those, both objective and subjective truth.

However, I suggest both Sculptor and Eric psychologically while aiming at objective truths are doing so because their unspoken stance is towards objective truth. NB I would not claim that objective truth is definable. Nor would I claim that all men stand to face indefinable objective truth as some men psychologically prefer lies.

If you think that, then, with respect you are not following what I am saying.
I was very careful in my words; "truth is a concept searching for the objective." That does not imply that objectivity is attainable, except on the most mundane level of "oh look a cup".
Morality cannot be matched with eternal since we know that humanity, the bearer and inventor of morality, is temporal. Nor can is so easily be matched with "truth" except on the most basic culturally, historically, socially, and personally subjective way.

[Belindi]

And yet, neither Eric nor Sculptor could have claimed what they did claim unless each of them had an eye to truth itself.

Here's the "truth"
You are confusing two completely different things. There is something that we can agree is "true", and then there is a vague and diffuse concept "eternal moral truth".
This phrase is effectively a oxymoron. Morality have everything in common with subjective values, whilst truth is a concept searching for the objective.

I agree that 'truth' means either subjective truth or objective truth or, if I confuse those, both objective and subjective truth.

However, I suggest both Sculptor and Eric psychologically while aiming at objective truths are doing so because their unspoken stance is towards objective truth. NB I would not claim that objective truth is definable. Nor would I claim that all men stand to face indefinable objective truth as some men psychologically prefer lies.

If you think that, then, with respect you are not following what I am saying.
I was very careful in my words; "truth is a concept searching for the objective." That does not imply that objectivity is attainable, except on the most mundane level of "oh look a cup".
Morality cannot be matched with eternal since we know that humanity, the bearer and inventor of morality, is temporal. Nor can is so easily be matched with "truth" except on the most basic culturally, historically, socially, and personally subjective way.

Morality is human and culturally relative. Objective , absolute, or eternal truth is not human and we know it only by attitudes towards it.
There are people who psychologically prefer their lies or others' lies even while they know they prefer lies. Obviously you and Eric prefer telling your separate truths.