Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belindi]

The problem of unstable families is addressed by Christians in different ways.

Where does the problem stem from? Is it the Bible, or do people choose to try and justify what they want to do, my thoughts, is the latter. You have to try and justify harshness, but you don't need to justify kindness.

Some Christians are punitive because their God is punitive.

I agree with your quote, after removing the word 'myth'.

Other Christians try to understand what causes families to break down and try to remove he causes of family breakdown.The latter group holds to the God of understanding and forgiveness.

And this is the God I search for, we reflect the God we worship. (I have removed 'myth' from your quote; in order to agree with you)

Jesus forgave individuals who sought to be loving but Jesus did not forgive Caesar. Caesar was an uncontestable evil for the Palestinians who were forced to comply. ("Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's").

The Jews were forced to pay tax like we do today. I can imagine the Roman tax collectors might have turned this into extortion. As I understand this story, the Jews were trying to trick Jesus. In context - Mark 12

“Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?”

But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

“Caesar’s,” they replied.

17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

NB as always: when I say 'myth' I don't refer to a story that is fiction. I refer to a story, an important narrative, that shapes people's ideas and morals.

Fair enough, but I can't associate 'myth' when talking about God. We might be different, but differences are not necessarily a barrier.

NB - It was Global Forgiveness Day yesterday, they say there is scientific evidence to show how forgiving is beneficial. https://discoverforgiveness.org/through ... ion=africa

Not only the Roman tax collectors, the Roman regime was one of the most aggressive regimes ever. Caesar was especially hard on the Palestinians who seemed to be less compliant than for instance the inhabitants of Britain or Gaul. Maybe the Palestinians were made bold and resistant by their Jewish faith which was more sophisticated than that of the early Celts. Some British tribes became Romanised and made themselves more powerful in self defence and trade by so doing. I guess Jesus thought Palestinians, Jews, would do better to be Romanised just as long as the Roman regime let them carry on with their own Jewish law. JC reportedly was more interested in people's souls than their politics.

I don't believe people who say Jews were partly responsible for Jesus' death on the Cross.

As a practical proposition we can't forgive all wrongdoers some of whom are criminals. I feel sorry for anyone who is sent to prison especially in the US but society has to be able to say "We will not tolerate child molesters".

[EricPH]

Not only the Roman tax collectors, the Roman regime was one of the most aggressive regimes ever.

Paying tax was a message for all people. It also applies to us today. No matter how harsh the regime might be, roads, hospitals schools etc still have to be paid for.

JC reportedly was more interested in people's souls than their politics.

We might spend a few decades here on Earth; but an eternity in heaven. Jesus was looking at the bigger picture.

I don't believe people who say Jews were partly responsible for Jesus' death on the Cross.

Agreed, Jesus predicted his death and resurrection a number of times. In order to rise again, Jesus first had to die. The resurrection gives us hope.

As a practical proposition we can't forgive all wrongdoers some of whom are criminals.

For some people it is not possible to forgive, but only victims have the right to forgive, or not forgive. You can only forgive someone who needs forgiving, do we only forgive someone who has stolen a pencil from work? To what extent are we prepared to forgive?

"We will not tolerate child molesters".

I can't understand how anyone could hurt a child; most victims would find it almost impossible to forgive their abuser. I have just spent the last couple of hours with a man who when he was a child; was kidnapped, beaten and violently raped over forty years ago. Every day he is plagued with angry violent thoughts, he has attempted suicide a number of times. He has been labelled a paranoid schizophrenic.

Forty years later, his abuser is still controlling his mind, he makes him think things and do things he does not want to think or do. He has never had justice for what happened, and his abuser has died unpunished. The only way he can find some kind of peace is to try and let go of the past, easy for me to say; and I have had this conversation with him. He can't seem to let go and forgive, so it seems his abuser will control his mind until the day he dies.

[Belindi]

Not only the Roman tax collectors, the Roman regime was one of the most aggressive regimes ever.

Paying tax was a message for all people. It also applies to us today. No matter how harsh the regime might be, roads, hospitals schools etc still have to be paid for.

JC reportedly was more interested in people's souls than their politics.

We might spend a few decades here on Earth; but an eternity in heaven. Jesus was looking at the bigger picture.

I don't believe people who say Jews were partly responsible for Jesus' death on the Cross.

Agreed, Jesus predicted his death and resurrection a number of times. In order to rise again, Jesus first had to die. The resurrection gives us hope.

As a practical proposition we can't forgive all wrongdoers some of whom are criminals.

For some people it is not possible to forgive, but only victims have the right to forgive, or not forgive. You can only forgive someone who needs forgiving, do we only forgive someone who has stolen a pencil from work? To what extent are we prepared to forgive?

"We will not tolerate child molesters".

I can't understand how anyone could hurt a child; most victims would find it almost impossible to forgive their abuser. I have just spent the last couple of hours with a man who when he was a child; was kidnapped, beaten and violently raped over forty years ago. Every day he is plagued with angry violent thoughts, he has attempted suicide a number of times. He has been labelled a paranoid schizophrenic.

Forty years later, his abuser is still controlling his mind, he makes him think things and do things he does not want to think or do. He has never had justice for what happened, and his abuser has died unpunished. The only way he can find some kind of peace is to try and let go of the past, easy for me to say; and I have had this conversation with him. He can't seem to let go and forgive, so it seems his abuser will control his mind until the day he dies.

Your friend may suffer from that psychiatric illness when there are vivid flashbacks to traumatic episodes. I don't know what the recommended therapy is, or if there is one, or if an amateur can help. I hope so. In any case it must be a relief for the poor sufferer to unburden himself to you.

It's true that a strong philosophical determinist can reason that his abusers were morally unwell and so their horrible behaviour is not their fault. I't's not at all easy to forgive emotionally. The present Archbishop of Canterbury said forgiveness is impossible unless the evildoer asks the victim to forgive. JC accomplished this as we know but we are not JC.


As regards paying taxes, under a liberal regime it's reasonable to pay whatever taxes must be paid. However when the regime is unjust and some people are too rich and others too poor, it's a duty for all able bodied men and women to rise and rebel. Palestine under Roman occupation was a different kettle of fish as that was a reign of terror when rebellion= death and there was no possibility of rebelling against Caesar. Jesus wanted Jews to keep alive the Jewish moral law which, as revised by the Prophets, was to do with intentions and not actual actions especially suicidal actions such as defying Caesar.

[EricPH]

Your friend may suffer from that psychiatric illness when there are vivid flashbacks to traumatic episodes. I don't know what the recommended therapy is, or if there is one, or if an amateur can help. I hope so. In any case it must be a relief for the poor sufferer to unburden himself to you.

He has suffered daily for over forty years, no therapies have worked.

The present Archbishop of Canterbury said forgiveness is impossible unless the evildoer asks the victim to forgive.

I disagree with the Archbishop, forgiveness can happen even if the person does not repent. I have found many times, that if I am able to forgive, then the person who benefits the most is me. Forgiveness is not so much for the wrongdoers benefit. Forgiveness is about me trying to leave the past behind and live in peace with today. Having said that, it does not mean that I have to be a doormat.

JC accomplished this as we know but we are not JC.

Should we give up trying, lessons in life are tough. I can only say, that I have experienced a profound sense of peace when I am able to forgive, it is like a weight has been taken off my shoulders.

As regards paying taxes, under a liberal regime it's reasonable to pay whatever taxes must be paid. However when the regime is unjust and some people are too rich and others too poor, it's a duty for all able bodied men and women to rise and rebel.

I am all for rebellion, but not with violence. Rosa Parks is one of my heroes. Through her actions, she inspired the black community to boycott bus companies, and so change unjust laws. Gandhi, is another of my heroes, he challenged the oppressive British ways, by non violent means on his part.

[Belindi]

EricPH wrote:

Forgiveness is about me trying to leave the past behind and live in peace with today. Having said that, it does not mean that I have to be a doormat.

Resignation may be all you can do, but it's not the best approach to injustice.The best approach to injustice is peaceful insistence on restitution of rights to property that has been stolen, or peace of mind that has been taken away. I wish that The Palestinian Authority will have Palestinians' right to stolen property upheld by Israel. and I wish that your friend would receive sincere apologies and remuneration from the persons who harmed him.

I agree about Rosa Parks , and Gandhi. Unfortunately small protests like that of Rosa Parks often pass unnoticed and there have to be political movements for justice.On the other hand, when institutions fail to support justice it's often the high-principled individuals in the institutions who continue to work for justice.

[Sy Borg]

The best approach to injustice is peaceful insistence on restitution of rights to property that has been stolen, or peace of mind that has been taken away.

That tends to require a great deal of money, and the possibility of losing the case. I would like restitution against the school bullies who limited my possibilities in life and left lasting emotional scars, and also for their attack on me again at a school reunion decades later when I was only there to forgive and finally put the demons behind me.

So, rather than forgive such human scum, I would ideally like to see them buried up to their necks in the desert, smeared with honey, and slowly consumed by ants . Alas, as the esteemed British philosopher, Mick Jagger, observed, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" so I am forced to be philosophical instead, which sure beats being stuck in toxic mental loops.

One has to accept life in all its beauty and atrocities, that our troubles are ultimately just entropy, whether it is induced by humans or the myriad other ways that the world can bring you down.

[Belindi]

The best approach to injustice is peaceful insistence on restitution of rights to property that has been stolen, or peace of mind that has been taken away.

That tends to require a great deal of money, and the possibility of losing the case. I would like restitution against the school bullies who limited my possibilities in life and left lasting emotional scars, and also for their attack on me again at a school reunion decades later when I was only there to forgive and finally put the demons behind me.

So, rather than forgive such human scum, I would ideally like to see them buried up to their necks in the desert, smeared with honey, and slowly consumed by ants . Alas, as the esteemed British philosopher, Mick Jagger, observed, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" so I am forced to be philosophical instead, which sure beats being stuck in toxic mental loops.

One has to accept life in all its beauty and atrocities, that our troubles are ultimately just entropy, whether it is induced by humans or the myriad other ways that the world can bring you down.

Entropy I can accept as all life is subject to entropy. I don't accept injustice and I don't want to accept it. I don't want to accept bullying. I accept that revenge and defence must be within the law and that revenge and defence should be carried out by the state and not by individuals, families, or tribes.

Anger is healthier than depression. To sublimate anger by using anger's energy to work for good or truth is best, including in small and obscure ways.

[Sy Borg]

The best approach to injustice is peaceful insistence on restitution of rights to property that has been stolen, or peace of mind that has been taken away.

That tends to require a great deal of money, and the possibility of losing the case. I would like restitution against the school bullies who limited my possibilities in life and left lasting emotional scars, and also for their attack on me again at a school reunion decades later when I was only there to forgive and finally put the demons behind me.

So, rather than forgive such human scum, I would ideally like to see them buried up to their necks in the desert, smeared with honey, and slowly consumed by ants :lol:. Alas, as the esteemed British philosopher, Mick Jagger, observed, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" so I am forced to be philosophical instead, which sure beats being stuck in toxic mental loops.

One has to accept life in all its beauty and atrocities, that our troubles are ultimately just entropy, whether it is induced by humans or the myriad other ways that the world can bring you down.

Entropy I can accept as all life is subject to entropy. I don't accept injustice and I don't want to accept it. I don't want to accept bullying. I accept that revenge and defence must be within the law and that revenge and defence should be carried out by the state and not by individuals, families, or tribes.

Anger is healthier than depression. To sublimate anger by using anger's energy to work for good or truth is best, including in small and obscure ways.

People get angrier about entropy inflicted by humans than the entropy of natural disasters to prevent recurrences. One cannot scare off a volcano.

However, it is ultimately all the same thing - external events breaking down life forms. Does it matter if a gazelle is killed by a lion or crushed by a falling boulder? Is a murdered person any more dead than one who dies after a fall?

The universe is always working towards equilibrium, and that involves breaking down existing structures - like us - and spreading them out in the environment. Damaged people who inflict their disequilibrium on others are just part of that.

[Belindi]

The best approach to injustice is peaceful insistence on restitution of rights to property that has been stolen, or peace of mind that has been taken away.

That tends to require a great deal of money, and the possibility of losing the case. I would like restitution against the school bullies who limited my possibilities in life and left lasting emotional scars, and also for their attack on me again at a school reunion decades later when I was only there to forgive and finally put the demons behind me.

So, rather than forgive such human scum, I would ideally like to see them buried up to their necks in the desert, smeared with honey, and slowly consumed by ants . Alas, as the esteemed British philosopher, Mick Jagger, observed, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" so I am forced to be philosophical instead, which sure beats being stuck in toxic mental loops.

One has to accept life in all its beauty and atrocities, that our troubles are ultimately just entropy, whether it is induced by humans or the myriad other ways that the world can bring you down.

Entropy I can accept as all life is subject to entropy. I don't accept injustice and I don't want to accept it. I don't want to accept bullying. I accept that revenge and defence must be within the law and that revenge and defence should be carried out by the state and not by individuals, families, or tribes.

Anger is healthier than depression. To sublimate anger by using anger's energy to work for good or truth is best, including in small and obscure ways.

People get angrier about entropy inflicted by humans than the entropy of natural disasters to prevent recurrences. One cannot scare off a volcano.

However, it is ultimately all the same thing - external events breaking down life forms. Does it matter if a gazelle is killed by a lion or crushed by a falling boulder? Is a murdered person any more dead than one who dies after a fall?

The universe is always working towards equilibrium, and that involves breaking down existing structures - like us - and spreading them out in the environment. Damaged people who inflict their disequilibrium on others are just part of that.

Volcanoes, and the universe, don't know what they are doing but the people in Ohio who did not allow a raped ten-year old to have an abortion well knew what they were doing. I expect many people around the world are angry about that and so we should be.

[Sy Borg]

That tends to require a great deal of money, and the possibility of losing the case. I would like restitution against the school bullies who limited my possibilities in life and left lasting emotional scars, and also for their attack on me again at a school reunion decades later when I was only there to forgive and finally put the demons behind me.

So, rather than forgive such human scum, I would ideally like to see them buried up to their necks in the desert, smeared with honey, and slowly consumed by ants :lol:. Alas, as the esteemed British philosopher, Mick Jagger, observed, "You Can't Always Get What You Want" so I am forced to be philosophical instead, which sure beats being stuck in toxic mental loops.

One has to accept life in all its beauty and atrocities, that our troubles are ultimately just entropy, whether it is induced by humans or the myriad other ways that the world can bring you down.

Entropy I can accept as all life is subject to entropy. I don't accept injustice and I don't want to accept it. I don't want to accept bullying. I accept that revenge and defence must be within the law and that revenge and defence should be carried out by the state and not by individuals, families, or tribes.

Anger is healthier than depression. To sublimate anger by using anger's energy to work for good or truth is best, including in small and obscure ways.

People get angrier about entropy inflicted by humans than the entropy of natural disasters to prevent recurrences. One cannot scare off a volcano.

However, it is ultimately all the same thing - external events breaking down life forms. Does it matter if a gazelle is killed by a lion or crushed by a falling boulder? Is a murdered person any more dead than one who dies after a fall?

The universe is always working towards equilibrium, and that involves breaking down existing structures - like us - and spreading them out in the environment. Damaged people who inflict their disequilibrium on others are just part of that.

Volcanoes, and the universe, don't know what they are doing but the people in Ohio who did not allow a raped ten-year old to have an abortion well knew what they were doing. I expect many people around the world are angry about that and so we should be.

It is weirdly sadistic, the result of misogyny in high places.

So why do we become angry at errant humans and not errant volcanoes? One makes a difference and one doesn't. Anger can intimidate potential wrongdoers, and the focus is on trying to prevent an recurrence. Volcanoes, on the other hand, don't scare easily.

[Belindi]

Entropy I can accept as all life is subject to entropy. I don't accept injustice and I don't want to accept it. I don't want to accept bullying. I accept that revenge and defence must be within the law and that revenge and defence should be carried out by the state and not by individuals, families, or tribes.

Anger is healthier than depression. To sublimate anger by using anger's energy to work for good or truth is best, including in small and obscure ways.

People get angrier about entropy inflicted by humans than the entropy of natural disasters to prevent recurrences. One cannot scare off a volcano.

However, it is ultimately all the same thing - external events breaking down life forms. Does it matter if a gazelle is killed by a lion or crushed by a falling boulder? Is a murdered person any more dead than one who dies after a fall?

The universe is always working towards equilibrium, and that involves breaking down existing structures - like us - and spreading them out in the environment. Damaged people who inflict their disequilibrium on others are just part of that.

Volcanoes, and the universe, don't know what they are doing but the people in Ohio who did not allow a raped ten-year old to have an abortion well knew what they were doing. I expect many people around the world are angry about that and so we should be.

It is weirdly sadistic, the result of misogyny in high places.

So why do we become angry at errant humans and not errant volcanoes? One makes a difference and one doesn't. Anger can intimidate potential wrongdoers, and the focus is on trying to prevent an recurrence. Volcanoes, on the other hand, don't scare easily.

Anger is one life- enhancing life-preserving effect of fear. I saw this yesterday when my small terrier was attacked by a larger dog.

Volcanoes don't need to even feel afraid or happy, hungry or full. A wee stone from my gravel path is like volcanoes in its not having any needs.
The more Americans are like terriers and the less like little stones the more Americans will resist those who take away the rights of the most vulnerable of individuals.

On the other hand the whole world is in crisis when fear drives the already powerful to build defence fortresses against the hoi polloi. The US and its new attitude to abortion is seismatic and effects will be felt all over the world as elites move to defend their privileges against climate change, man made and natural.

However, it is ultimately all the same thing - external events breaking down life forms. Does it matter if a gazelle is killed by a lion or crushed by a falling boulder? Is a murdered person any more dead than one who dies after a fall?

The satisfied lion will be secreting nice contented peaceful hormones once it has killed and fed. Do lions purr? The corpse could not care less. Corpses are extremely uninteresting.

Unlike lions we men feel for the gazelles. Whether this is an effect of history or biology it's still a fact and I for one hope our feeling for gazelles will not be a thing of the past.

[EricPH]

I wish that The Palestinian Authority will have Palestinians' right to stolen property upheld by Israel.

We went to Israel in 2009 and witnessed bulldozed houses with furniture and belongings amongst the rubble. We pressed our Jewish tour guide for answers, but she seemed unwilling to say anything to a coach load of Brits who were openly hostile about the demolitions. Having escaped the ghettos, Israel appears to be creating ghettos. Israel is becoming like the people they hated and feared the most. Peace makers have stood in front of bulldozers, and have sadly been killed. The only way some kind of justice might happen; is if a more powerful nation forced Israel to give up stolen land.

and I wish that your friend would receive sincere apologies and remuneration from the persons who harmed him.

Again, true justice can't happen, the abuser was never punished and has since died, this eats away at my friend; daily.

True justice very rarely happens here on Earth.

[Belindi]

I wish that The Palestinian Authority will have Palestinians' right to stolen property upheld by Israel.

We went to Israel in 2009 and witnessed bulldozed houses with furniture and belongings amongst the rubble. We pressed our Jewish tour guide for answers, but she seemed unwilling to say anything to a coach load of Brits who were openly hostile about the demolitions. Having escaped the ghettos, Israel appears to be creating ghettos. Israel is becoming like the people they hated and feared the most. Peace makers have stood in front of bulldozers, and have sadly been killed. The only way some kind of justice might happen; is if a more powerful nation forced Israel to give up stolen land.

and I wish that your friend would receive sincere apologies and remuneration from the persons who harmed him.

Again, true justice can't happen, the abuser was never punished and has since died, this eats away at my friend; daily.

True justice very rarely happens here on Earth.

The partisanship and comradeship of people like you goes a long way to restoring justice.


As for Palestinian rights, you are right; modern Palestinians are victims of former victims(Jews). But Zionism is a total lie , an evil myth on several counts not least that it was not Jews or Hebrews but Egyptians who were the first monotheists. Secondly few of the Israeli settlers are pure bred descendants of original Jewish stock who were ,of course, Palestinians. Thirdly the USA is the main and very powerful backer of Israel and its absurd 'Zionist' behaviour.

[EricPH]

modern Palestinians are victims of former victims(Jews).

If the Jews obeyed their scriptures, they would treat the Palestinians fairly.

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
.
Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

[Belindi]

modern Palestinians are victims of former victims(Jews).

If the Jews obeyed their scriptures, they would treat the Palestinians fairly.

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
.
Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

The Zionist regime in Israel is not a religious but a political regime that directs a colonising aggressor. They say they are religious but this is a whitewash. The Israeli regime won't even return to pre-1967 boundaries.

In the Six Day War of June 1967, Israel defeated the combined armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, capturing the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula. For Israel, it was a stunning triumph; for Arabs, a humiliating defeat

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