Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Belindi]

I disagree with the historical details of your first paragraph.Christianity is larger than you claim and is more correctly called Judeo-Christianity.

Your second paragraph I happen to agree with .Your second paragraph too is a story we tell ourselves. A myth. After all there is evidence a human is like a solitary tyrannosaurus rex more so than like a wild ape.

Our 'atheist' version of the Judeo-Christian myth, like Eric's supernatural version of the myth , is used for maintaining law and order. Some lefties including me think the Judeo-Christian myth is a fable that illustrates the sort of egalitarian justice we trust and wish for.
I am afraid the regime tolerates and approves of such as Eric's good works because it bears the cost of what the state ought to be doing.

[EricPH]

Eric's mentor or mentors have taught him the moral code very well, but have not explained the myth as myth.

There may be a valid objection all myths are better avoided especially when most people misunderstand symbolism.

Why are you so keen for me to drop my beliefs? What advantage will I gain if I follow your beliefs?

[Belindi]

Eric's mentor or mentors have taught him the moral code very well, but have not explained the myth as myth.

There may be a valid objection all myths are better avoided especially when most people misunderstand symbolism.

Why are you so keen for me to drop my beliefs? What advantage will I gain if I follow your beliefs?

It's not right that you feel you must justify your religious beliefs by means of bad scientific beliefs. I respect the altruistic work you do and also the consolations you get from your beliefs.

[Sy Borg]

I disagree with the historical details of your first paragraph.Christianity is larger than you claim and is more correctly called Judeo-Christianity.

Your second paragraph I happen to agree with .Your second paragraph too is a story we tell ourselves. A myth. After all there is evidence a human is like a solitary tyrannosaurus rex more so than like a wild ape.

Our 'atheist' version of the Judeo-Christian myth, like Eric's supernatural version of the myth , is used for maintaining law and order. Some lefties including me think the Judeo-Christian myth is a fable that illustrates the sort of egalitarian justice we trust and wish for.
I am afraid the regime tolerates and approves of such as Eric's good works because it bears the cost of what the state ought to be doing.

No, Christians took a pre-existing morality and claimed it as their own. There is little to distinguish Christian morality from the morality based on other creeds or ideals.

Meanwhile, I also note that the more unique tenets of Christianity, such as "turn the other cheek" are not only ignored by today's Evangelical Christians, but the notion is treated with open contempt.

[Belindi]

I disagree with the historical details of your first paragraph.Christianity is larger than you claim and is more correctly called Judeo-Christianity.

Your second paragraph I happen to agree with .Your second paragraph too is a story we tell ourselves. A myth. After all there is evidence a human is like a solitary tyrannosaurus rex more so than like a wild ape.

Our 'atheist' version of the Judeo-Christian myth, like Eric's supernatural version of the myth , is used for maintaining law and order. Some lefties including me think the Judeo-Christian myth is a fable that illustrates the sort of egalitarian justice we trust and wish for.
I am afraid the regime tolerates and approves of such as Eric's good works because it bears the cost of what the state ought to be doing.

No, Christians took a pre-existing morality and claimed it as their own. There is little to distinguish Christian morality from the morality based on other creeds or ideals.

Meanwhile, I also note that the more unique tenets of Christianity, such as "turn the other cheek" are not only ignored by today's Evangelical Christians, but the notion is treated with open contempt.

I agree. That's why I called it Judeo-Christianity. Islam too is like Judaism which I seem to remember is Islam's parent or one of them. (But I'd have to Google the life and work of Muhammad.)

"Turn the other cheek" is problematic. I believe some wars are just. If Ukraine did not resist Russian incursion, cruelty, and takeover Russia would take over Poland, Belarus, and Finland. Jesus himself got stroppy with the money changers in the Temple. The American Revolution was good and justified. The French Revolutions good in overall effect and myth of Liberty Equality and Fraternity. Many countries now need if not revolution then a jolly good evolution to the left. We all know why the political Right approves of 'turn the other cheek' and applies it selectively to vulnerable people.

Also we have to remember Jesus was a Palestinian hopelessly under Roman rule. Rome was incredibly powerful and open resistance in Palestine would have been madness.

Psychologically, however, making oneself vulnerable with the intention of benefiting others is a sign of strength. Eric's good works he and his friends do is an example being vulnerable armed only with faith in order to benefit others. 'Turn the other cheek' deserves the close attention of moral philosophers.

Meanwhile, I also note that the more unique tenets of Christianity, such as "turn the other cheek" are not only ignored by today's Evangelical Christians, but the notion is treated with open contempt.

(SB)

Do they? I'd have guessed they applied the tenet selectively to their opponents but not to themselves.

[EricPH]

'Turn the other cheek' deserves the close attention of moral philosophers.

Turning the other cheek and forgiving is profound and where you can find a peace that surpasses all understanding.

Jesus taught to forgive, love and pray for our enemies. This is probably the toughest of all his commands, because in essence we are being asked to give up our claim for justice. Jesus would have been a hypocrite had he not done himself; as he taught others to do. When you read the story of the crucifixion; Jesus would need to forgive, love and pray for those who condemned him, beat him and those who nailed him to the cross. We know that Jesus prayed on the cross, 'Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. As I understand the prayer of Jesus; he is saying to God, that when these people stand before you, please do not hold these crimes against them.

Jesus gave us the 'Lord's Prayer'; which we tell God what to do. We tell God to forgive us, in exactly the same way we forgive others. If we are not prepared to forgive others, we are telling God to do the same to us.

During my Street Pastor training, I decided in advance that if I was ever injured, I would forgive those responsible. This has only been put to the test once. We had finished our shift and were walking towards our cars, we saw a group of youths in an alley. Two of the lads walked towards us, and pointed at us saying, walk on.
I said to my mate that we should walk away. But he said, have you seen those other lads climbing over the garden fence. I then knew we were going to stay. We got hit and pushed around by the lads. The following day I had a phone call from the police saying, they had caught up with these lads, and could I come and make a statement. I said No.
I said I was a Christian, that I should love and forgive. If I write a statement, then I can no longer forgive. I did say I would be happy to meet up with the lads and listen to their story, but they must be allowed to walk away. The police said no, And I also said no to them.
We later found out; that the angriest lad had every right to be angry. He had never got on with his dad, then his dad was diagnosed with cancer, and they started to make up. Shortly after his dad died, we just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time.

I had worked with people who have challenging behaviour for about ten years, and without a day off sick. I have lost count of the number of times I have been hit supporting these guys. I brought some troubling issues to the attention of the directors. Shortly after, I believe I was unfairly sacked.
I asked if I could come back as a volunteer, they said No. Since being sacked, I have done about two thousand hours of voluntary work; for the company that sacked me. I wanted to keep in touch with the people I had been supporting. I took them to a club every week and twice a year I voluntarily took them on holiday.
I can truthfully say, it is easier to do two thousand hours of voluntary work, than to carry resentment and anger for ten years. Accepting the things you cannot change, gives you the power and motivation to do the things that are in your power to do. I have felt totally at peace going back and seeing the people I hold responsible for my sacking.

On two occasions I have come into contact with people who were in the process of ending their lives. Both had a similar story of suffering from an injustice; that was never going to be put right. I talked about the need to try and let go, so they do not spend their final hours on Earth feeling bitter and angry. If you can find it in your heart to forgive, you can then become the kind and caring person you want to be. Both had a good outcome.

[Belindi]

'Turn the other cheek' deserves the close attention of moral philosophers.

Turning the other cheek and forgiving is profound and where you can find a peace that surpasses all understanding.

Jesus taught to forgive, love and pray for our enemies. This is probably the toughest of all his commands, because in essence we are being asked to give up our claim for justice. Jesus would have been a hypocrite had he not done himself; as he taught others to do. When you read the story of the crucifixion; Jesus would need to forgive, love and pray for those who condemned him, beat him and those who nailed him to the cross. We know that Jesus prayed on the cross, 'Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. As I understand the prayer of Jesus; he is saying to God, that when these people stand before you, please do not hold these crimes against them.

Jesus gave us the 'Lord's Prayer'; which we tell God what to do. We tell God to forgive us, in exactly the same way we forgive others. If we are not prepared to forgive others, we are telling God to do the same to us.

During my Street Pastor training, I decided in advance that if I was ever injured, I would forgive those responsible. This has only been put to the test once. We had finished our shift and were walking towards our cars, we saw a group of youths in an alley. Two of the lads walked towards us, and pointed at us saying, walk on.
I said to my mate that we should walk away. But he said, have you seen those other lads climbing over the garden fence. I then knew we were going to stay. We got hit and pushed around by the lads. The following day I had a phone call from the police saying, they had caught up with these lads, and could I come and make a statement. I said No.
I said I was a Christian, that I should love and forgive. If I write a statement, then I can no longer forgive. I did say I would be happy to meet up with the lads and listen to their story, but they must be allowed to walk away. The police said no, And I also said no to them.
We later found out; that the angriest lad had every right to be angry. He had never got on with his dad, then his dad was diagnosed with cancer, and they started to make up. Shortly after his dad died, we just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time.

I had worked with people who have challenging behaviour for about ten years, and without a day off sick. I have lost count of the number of times I have been hit supporting these guys. I brought some troubling issues to the attention of the directors. Shortly after, I believe I was unfairly sacked.
I asked if I could come back as a volunteer, they said No. Since being sacked, I have done about two thousand hours of voluntary work; for the company that sacked me. I wanted to keep in touch with the people I had been supporting. I took them to a club every week and twice a year I voluntarily took them on holiday.
I can truthfully say, it is easier to do two thousand hours of voluntary work, than to carry resentment and anger for ten years. Accepting the things you cannot change, gives you the power and motivation to do the things that are in your power to do. I have felt totally at peace going back and seeing the people I hold responsible for my sacking.

On two occasions I have come into contact with people who were in the process of ending their lives. Both had a similar story of suffering from an injustice; that was never going to be put right. I talked about the need to try and let go, so they do not spend their final hours on Earth feeling bitter and angry. If you can find it in your heart to forgive, you can then become the kind and caring person you want to be. Both had a good outcome.

You have moved the discussion forward by pointing out that 'to turn the other cheek' is to forgive.

You, Eric, are in a morally strong position as benefactor, strong because you choose to do what you do and what you choose you know to be a good choice.


But consider a man who has nothing to give and who is one of the outcasts. He did not choose to be outcast with few if any choices. It's a lot more effort for him to forgive someone in a stronger position and if he does so he will show a lot of moral strength. This was the position of Jesus who 'despised and rejected of men' and while being tortured Jesus forgave the Roman torturer.

Again, it's easier to forgive intellectually if you understand there are causes (extenuating circumstances) for all bad behaviours. This is the case with you who had the street pastor training, and have since discovered ample evidence that circumstaces are sufficient cause of bad behaviours.
It's impressive that your training seems to have helped you to forgive emotionally as well as intellectually , as the emotional sort of forgiveness is much harder than the intellectual sort.

But intellectual forgiveness is not the same as complete lack of resentment.

Resentment is sometimes justified. For instance it would be stupid to stop resenting and to start trusting a person who was going to do the same thing again. Eric, I imagine that when you are doing your difficult and risky work you try not to court trouble whenever you can avoid it. I am saying reason is a friend of love.

[UniversalAlien]

Now for some pragmatic reasons to "Believe in a God when It is Impossible to Prove":

1. It pays
Religions are notorious for collecting vast amounts of money from people by claiming an 'in the name of God' ideology
- Here we see claiming to believe in God can lead to the accumulation of vast amounts of money and hence power.

2. To put "the fear of God" into people.
Putting the fear of god into people allows you to manipulate them.

3. Specifically for political power:
The Southern 'Bible belt' states more often than not continue to vote Republican because Republicans have convinced them that
only they are the true believers who stand for their cause.

4. Supposedly to save unborn babies from abortions because the so called Christian religious/political elite claims in the name
of their interpretation of God that they have the right to force pregnant women to give birth in spite of the consequences
to the mother or society.

5. And most important - Hypocrisy
Believing in God and then actually blaspheming what a real god would dictate, which may in fact be not to dictate,
is the greatest of all hypocrisies.


So you see believers and skeptics alike - Believing in God {or at least so claiming} will get you money, power, political control and all the unwanted babies you can possibly imagine

Now do you see why people claim to believe in God

[EricPH]

But intellectual forgiveness is not the same as complete lack of resentment.

Resentment is sometimes justified. For instance it would be stupid to stop resenting and to start trusting a person who was going to do the same thing again. Eric, I imagine that when you are doing your difficult and risky work you try not to court trouble whenever you can avoid it. I am saying reason is a friend of love.

I think anger and resentment are justified feelings when you are a victim. Civil wars are probably the worst kind of wars, because your enemies can be your nearby neighbours.

I was privileged to be in a discussion lead by Bertha Fries. She lived in Columbia where a civil war has been raging for three generations. Five million have been displaced, huge numbers have been murdered, raped wounded. True justice can never happen on such a scale.
Bertha was the victim in a bomb attack twenty years ago in Columbia, about thirty died and hundreds wounded.

She spent eight years in hospitals recovering from her physical injuries. Her greater disease was the anger and resentment against the bombers. When she came out of hospital, she wanted to know why they bombed a busy centre, knowing they would kill innocent bystanders.

She eventually met up with Londarno, who was the commander of the Farc and the man with overall responsibility for the murders. He asked for forgiveness, and over time Bertha was able to forgive him. They have journeyed together trying to bring about peace in Columbia. They are hoping to invite Pope Francis, to Columbia in the hope of peace and reconciliation.

I was privalleged to be allowed to speak at the conference. I said that you will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God. My enemies are loved by God, they are not God's enemies. We are asked to love and pray for our enemies, in the same way that Jesus prayed on the cross, forgive them Father. The fear of God is the start of wisdom, we should fear God more than we fear our enemies here on Earth.

You can only live in peace if your neighbours and enemies can live in peace. Your children and grandchildren, and your enemies children and grandchildren are innocent, they should not carry on this war. One generation needs to give up their right for justice and work together rebuilding Columbia for the children.

Bertha had the final wards, she constantly has death threats and needs bodyguards to keep her safe. Her enemies are those who don't want to give up their right to justice and who don't want to forgive.

She is a courageous woman risking her life for the good of others. Killing is against all laws, and God's law. The greater law is to love your neighbours as you love yourself. Forgiving, peace and reconciliation come at a high price.

[EricPH]

Now for some pragmatic reasons to "Believe in a God when It is Impossible to Prove":

1. It pays
Religions are notorious for collecting vast amounts of money from people by claiming an 'in the name of God' ideology
- Here we see claiming to believe in God can lead to the accumulation of vast amounts of money and hence power.

2. To put "the fear of God" into people.
Putting the fear of god into people allows you to manipulate them.

3. Specifically for political power:
The Southern 'Bible belt' states more often than not continue to vote Republican because Republicans have convinced them that
only they are the true believers who stand for their cause.

4. Supposedly to save unborn babies from abortions because the so called Christian religious/political elite claims in the name
of their interpretation of God that they have the right to force pregnant women to give birth in spite of the consequences
to the mother or society.

5. And most important - Hypocrisy
Believing in God and then actually blaspheming what a real god would dictate, which may in fact be not to dictate,
is the greatest of all hypocrisies.


So you see believers and skeptics alike - Believing in God {or at least so claiming} will get you money, power, political control and all the unwanted babies you can possibly imagine

Now do you see why people claim to believe in God

Sounds like you have much in common with Jesus. He called the priests at that time hypocrites and a brood of vipers for exploiting people. Jesus overturned the money changers tables, because they exploited God to make money.

When it comes to abortion, I believe the church would be better served by saying what it stands for, rather than what it is against. That is a loving marriage for life, between a man and a woman. The children should have the loving support of parents, grandparents, uncles aunts. Strong marriages make for better communities. It takes two people to bring a child into this world, it takes a community to nurture them.

Sadly in the UK, when a child reaches fifteen, about half of them are not living with both their biological parents. The breakdown of families puts a huge burden on society.

[Belindi]

Now for some pragmatic reasons to "Believe in a God when It is Impossible to Prove":

1. It pays
Religions are notorious for collecting vast amounts of money from people by claiming an 'in the name of God' ideology
- Here we see claiming to believe in God can lead to the accumulation of vast amounts of money and hence power.

2. To put "the fear of God" into people.
Putting the fear of god into people allows you to manipulate them.

3. Specifically for political power:
The Southern 'Bible belt' states more often than not continue to vote Republican because Republicans have convinced them that
only they are the true believers who stand for their cause.

4. Supposedly to save unborn babies from abortions because the so called Christian religious/political elite claims in the name
of their interpretation of God that they have the right to force pregnant women to give birth in spite of the consequences
to the mother or society.

5. And most important - Hypocrisy
Believing in God and then actually blaspheming what a real god would dictate, which may in fact be not to dictate,
is the greatest of all hypocrisies.


So you see believers and skeptics alike - Believing in God {or at least so claiming} will get you money, power, political control and all the unwanted babies you can possibly imagine

Now do you see why people claim to believe in God

Sounds like you have much in common with Jesus. He called the priests at that time hypocrites and a brood of vipers for exploiting people. Jesus overturned the money changers tables, because they exploited God to make money.

When it comes to abortion, I believe the church would be better served by saying what it stands for, rather than what it is against. That is a loving marriage for life, between a man and a woman. The children should have the loving support of parents, grandparents, uncles aunts. Strong marriages make for better communities. It takes two people to bring a child into this world, it takes a community to nurture them.

Sadly in the UK, when a child reaches fifteen, about half of them are not living with both their biological parents. The breakdown of families puts a huge burden on society.

The problem of unstable families is addressed by Christians in different ways. Some Christians are punitive because their God myth is punitive. Other Christians try to understand what causes families to break down and try to remove he causes of family breakdown.The latter group holds to the God myth of understanding and forgiveness.


Jesus forgave individuals who sought to be loving but Jesus did not forgive Caesar. Caesar was an uncontestable evil for the Palestinians who were forced to comply. ("Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's").

NB as always: when I say 'myth' I don't refer to a story that is fiction. I refer to a story, an important narrative, that shapes people's ideas and morals.

[Greatest I am]

If only you applied your lack of evidence to your own beliefs.

I have all the evidence I need for my belief system.

That is why I can argue that it is the best.

Find any Christian able to argue his.

Regards
DL

If you have to argue, then you don't have evidence.

Eric does not have the evidence for his belief in the Christian myth but he has ample justification for his belief. We should be pragmatic about the benefits of Xianity and relate Xianity solely to the moral code as promoted by Jesus and so many others around that time.

I agree.

What justification doe he or any Christian have for promoting an immoral homophobic and misogynous God who happens to be a genocidal prick?

Show any moral and social benefit for such immoral thinking.

Regards
DL

[Joshua10]

I have all the evidence I need for my belief system.

That is why I can argue that it is the best.

Find any Christian able to argue his.

Regards
DL

If you have to argue, then you don't have evidence.

Eric does not have the evidence for his belief in the Christian myth but he has ample justification for his belief. We should be pragmatic about the benefits of Xianity and relate Xianity solely to the moral code as promoted by Jesus and so many others around that time.

I agree.

What justification doe he or any Christian have for promoting an immoral homophobic and misogynous God who happens to be a genocidal prick?

Show any moral and social benefit for such immoral thinking.

Regards
DL

I would suggest that if there is a God then there is the possibility that there is an anti god as well and that would be the type of argument that this anti god would be put forward to try and put all the blame onto God.Simple really.

[robertshelena]

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The content and length of an essay depends on your level, subject of study, and course requirements.
However, most essays at university level are argumentative: engineering assignment writing service

[EricPH]

The problem of unstable families is addressed by Christians in different ways.

Where does the problem stem from? Is it the Bible, or do people choose to try and justify what they want to do, my thoughts, is the latter. You have to try and justify harshness, but you don't need to justify kindness.

Some Christians are punitive because their God is punitive.

I agree with your quote, after removing the word 'myth'.

Other Christians try to understand what causes families to break down and try to remove he causes of family breakdown.The latter group holds to the God of understanding and forgiveness.

And this is the God I search for, we reflect the God we worship. (I have removed 'myth' from your quote; in order to agree with you)

Jesus forgave individuals who sought to be loving but Jesus did not forgive Caesar. Caesar was an uncontestable evil for the Palestinians who were forced to comply. ("Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's").

The Jews were forced to pay tax like we do today. I can imagine the Roman tax collectors might have turned this into extortion. As I understand this story, the Jews were trying to trick Jesus. In context - Mark 12

“Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? 15 Should we pay or shouldn’t we?”

But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

“Caesar’s,” they replied.

17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

NB as always: when I say 'myth' I don't refer to a story that is fiction. I refer to a story, an important narrative, that shapes people's ideas and morals.

Fair enough, but I can't associate 'myth' when talking about God. We might be different, but differences are not necessarily a barrier.

NB - It was Global Forgiveness Day yesterday, they say there is scientific evidence to show how forgiving is beneficial. https://discoverforgiveness.org/through ... ion=africa