Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[LuckyR]

Just out of curiosity what percentage of the decision making you perform for yourself on a daily basis revolves around how what you do is going to appear to women?

Difficult to say. Seriously.

All across the animal kingdom, male behavior is necessarily highly influenced by the resulting effect it has on his attractiveness to females. The reverse is clearly also the case.

Examples.

- I spend a lot of time i the gym and on the bicycle. Is that for health reasons or because women prefer men with a fit body?

- Even though I have already achieved a substantial financial upside in the past, I still like to work on things that have potentially large financial benefits. I no longer need to do that, but the ambition still exists. Is that because women prefer men with money? Or is it just an innate trait that men want to work on things? In that case, why is it innate?

The problem is that we can explain away what we do, without ever involving how it is going to appear to women. I can easily pretend that it does not matter whatsoever, if the need ever arises.

But then again, recruiting is not even particularly hard over here in SE Asia.

Well, it is not, if you know how it works. The vast majority of expats, however, do not seem to have the slightest clue as to how to go about it. They also do not speak the local language. In my impression, fellow expats invariably end up with the wrong kind of woman. In their bumbling ineptitude, they take whatever they can get, I guess. In order to be a bit more successful with the right kind, they would first have to unlearn everything they think they know; which is something that, in my experience, they will never do.

That trait -- thinking that you know but in fact you don't -- is going to backfire onto a lot of people in the nearby future. Anybody who does not quickly unlearn everything he thinks he knows about finance, will find himself financially destroyed over the next 12 to 24 months. That means that the vast majority of the population will probably be toast.

Your commentary is not internally consistent. You mention you might be thinking of women when you work out, yet later reveal that your below average looks play no role in your attractiveness to the women you buy (which, of course is very true).

I agree that the institution of marriage has nothing for you and thus I agree with you should never go down that road.

On a separate note, are you interested in children? If so, in the absence of marriage, in what circumstances would that happen?

[Belindi]

Heracleitos, relief of "sexual tension" is not a reason to be proud.

You wrote:

Romantic love is mostly a fairy tale that vastly exaggerates the importance of the biochemical, hormonal pair bonding that may or may not occurs between regular lovers.

Once again you have the simplistic idea that satisfying sexual need is the main cause of male-female relationships. The myth of romantic love, while it originated with Chretien de Troyes, in later times was boosted by the need of industry for workers who could leave their extended families and embrace personal independence, the new Holy Grail, in the new towns.

[heracleitos]

yet later reveal that your below average looks play no role in your attractiveness to the women you buy (which, of course is very true).

Both men and women keep sugar coating what they really want. I do not believe that this is helpful. Men want sexual tension relief. Women eventually always want money. I do not have a problem with either. On the contrary, it suits me perfectly fine.

I "buy" cleaning staff to make sure the house looks good. I "buy" private tutors to teach the children. I "buy" women for sexual tension relief. Where is the problem? If these people really do not want to be "bought", then shouldn't they themselves make sure not to "sell" themselves?

I agree that the institution of marriage has nothing for you and thus I agree with you should never go down that road.

The niqah arrangements that I make with women are always governed by Islamic Law.

Of course, the laws of Allah are not compatible with women who are surrounded or even part of the hookup culture. Therefore, I do not recommend niqah arrangement with unbeliever women.

Since the terms and conditions imposed by our laws onto the niqah contract are clearly and obviously not suitable for you, it is better that you do not try to get married with a believer. The believer is hopefully smart enough not to do it. But then again, if he is not, then the burden is on you to be smart enough not to do it. You are simply not compatible with our laws. Furthermore, our religious scholarship has issued numerous advisories sternly admonishing against making niqah arrangements with unbeliever women. Some believers may still make niqah arrangements with unbeliever women, but we collectively reject, reprobate, repudiate, and utterly condemn such behavior.

By the way, it is certainly not us who have an abysmally low marriage rate, a runaway divorce rate, and an inexistent birth rate. We are doing absolutely fine under the laws of Allah.

[heracleitos]

Heracleitos, relief of "sexual tension" is not a reason to be proud.

I do not have any problem with biological reality.

I even think that this biological arrangement is necessary in the human species. The design of our biology suits the needs of our sexual reproduction.

Men must be made to go back to women quite regularly for sexual tension relief, because that will compel these men to bring some money with them, which the woman will then use to raise the brood.

Imagine that men needed sexual tension relief only once a year? In that case, half of the women and children on the planet would starve, because why on earth would we go back? There is often not much interesting for a man to go back to a woman, except for sexual tension relief. Consequently, rapidly-recurring sexual tension in men is clearly a biological necessity.

I am not going to criticize the laws of nature. As far as I am concerned, they are perfectly fine.

[Belindi]

Heracleitos, relief of "sexual tension" is not a reason to be proud.

I do not have any problem with biological reality.

I even think that this biological arrangement is necessary in the human species. The design of our biology suits the needs of our sexual reproduction.

Men must be made to go back to women quite regularly for sexual tension relief, because that will compel these men to bring some money with them, which the woman will then use to raise the brood.

Imagine that men needed sexual tension relief only once a year? In that case, half of the women and children on the planet would starve, because why on earth would we go back? There is often not much interesting for a man to go back to a woman, except for sexual tension relief. Consequently, rapidly-recurring sexual tension in men is clearly a biological necessity.

I am not going to criticize the laws of nature. As far as I am concerned, they are perfectly fine.

Me neither. I too accept biological reality. Your financial power over women is not biological it's cultural. If you were a good Moslem you would embrace the greater Jihad.

[heracleitos]

Your financial power over women is not biological it's cultural.

I don't think so. It is clearly also biological.

They found that "On education and socioeconomic status, women on average express greater hypergamic selectivity; they prefer mates who are superior to them in these traits..."

In a 2016 paper that explored the income difference between couples in 1980 and 2012, researcher Yue Qian noted that the tendency for women to marry men with higher incomes than themselves still persists in the modern era.

If I did not have "financial power over women", these same women would not even be interested in me!

In the manosphere (red and black pill, mgtow, and so on), they say: "Women do not love you for `who you are` (whatever that may mean) but for what you can do for them." If I were destitute and homeless, women would have absolutely zero interest in me. The explanation is simple. I would not be able to do anything for them. Women clearly "love" opportunistically. Men may seemingly "love" more idealistically, but that is also a fairy tale, because in reality men are ultimately always after sexual tension relief.

Hence, women do not "love" me. I reject that view. They ultimately love my money.

Similarly, I do not "love" women. I ultimately love the recurring sexual tension relief.

As I see it, men and women do not really "love" each other, regardless of all the biochemical and hormonal pair bonding that may somewhat occur. Men and women are first and foremost useful to each other. If there are problems with the usefulness, then the so-called "love" will soon be gone too.

If you were a good Moslem you would embrace the greater Jihad.

Well, since I was born and raised a Catholic, I am forgiven some lapses and other minor sins, especially, because I pay quite a bit of lip service ("dawaa") to the concept of Islam. I always highly recommend Islamic Law to people who seem to like it in the first place. On the other hand, the ones who do not like it, can just keep doing whatever else they are doing now. (Who the hell even cares?)

[LuckyR]

yet later reveal that your below average looks play no role in your attractiveness to the women you buy (which, of course is very true).

Both men and women keep sugar coating what they really want. I do not believe that this is helpful. Men want sexual tension relief. Women eventually always want money. I do not have a problem with either. On the contrary, it suits me perfectly fine.

I "buy" cleaning staff to make sure the house looks good. I "buy" private tutors to teach the children. I "buy" women for sexual tension relief. Where is the problem? If these people really do not want to be "bought", then shouldn't they themselves make sure not to "sell" themselves?

I agree that the institution of marriage has nothing for you and thus I agree with you should never go down that road.

The niqah arrangements that I make with women are always governed by Islamic Law.

Of course, the laws of Allah are not compatible with women who are surrounded or even part of the hookup culture. Therefore, I do not recommend niqah arrangement with unbeliever women.

Since the terms and conditions imposed by our laws onto the niqah contract are clearly and obviously not suitable for you, it is better that you do not try to get married with a believer. The believer is hopefully smart enough not to do it. But then again, if he is not, then the burden is on you to be smart enough not to do it. You are simply not compatible with our laws. Furthermore, our religious scholarship has issued numerous advisories sternly admonishing against making niqah arrangements with unbeliever women. Some believers may still make niqah arrangements with unbeliever women, but we collectively reject, reprobate, repudiate, and utterly condemn such behavior.

By the way, it is certainly not us who have an abysmally low marriage rate, a runaway divorce rate, and an inexistent birth rate. We are doing absolutely fine under the laws of Allah.

Who said I have a problem with what you're doing? You just agreed with my use of the (accurate) word "buy". We're in agreement.

I am unfamiliar with the details of the contractual arrangements you're making. But even so, you (both of you) get what you arrange for. That's why I asked about the plan for children. Sounds like you have some. What is the relationship with their mother?

BTW, between the two options of you working out to look better to women or not caring about your physical attractiveness TO WOMEN (in particular), I suspect the truth is the latter, you likely don't really care what women think about you, based on your actions. That is the internally consistent option.

[heracleitos]

Who said I have a problem with what you're doing? You just agreed with my use of the (accurate) word "buy". We're in agreement.

As a man, I do not objectify myself. I do not even like it. On the other hand, I can see that a lot of women want to do that. Just look at what they do on Instagram or OnlyFans. Still, I am absolutely not interested in preventing them from doing that, because in the end, who even cares?

The practice of paying a bride price, i.e. a sign-on bonus is something that women and their families adamantly insist on in this area of the world. Furthermore, the mahar is even mandatory in Islamic law.

These women absolutely want it like that. I obviously do not object in the least. Why would I?

That's why I asked about the plan for children. Sounds like you have some. What is the relationship with their mother?

Since we live in Asia and their mother is Asian, my kids are culturally mostly Asian. They are fluent in English, though. They have permanently always had an English tutor. Beyond that, they are mostly absorbed in this SE Asian environment in which they were born.

The relationship with their mother is typically what biology organizes. At a young age, the mother is clearly their preferred go-to person. The older they become, the more they deal with other people too. The mother then recedes in importance.

I suspect the truth is the latter, you likely don't really care what women think about you, based on your actions.

Over here, they would be more impressed with a big SUV than with lots of muscles. I could buy an SUV but its only use would then be to impress women, because myself, I do not even like cars. I also do not need one here. Everything here is at biking distance.

So, even though I do specifically care about not acting in violation of biological (and religious) rules, I do not particularly or necessarily care about individual opinions. That applies to both men and women, and not just to women.

[Belindi]

Heracleitos, is the bride price held by you in trust for the woman when you no longer desire the woman? If the bride price is not to safeguard the woman's future then it must be for buying her.

It's wrong to buy a man or a woman as if you had power over their feelings and intellects. It's ethical to buy human labour but only if you take responsibility for the welfare of your servants. Therefore you should contract with the mother and daughter to take care of the daughter's happiness, liberal education, and health, as well as her financial future. These people are obviously in need of educating if they are mostly impressed by fat cars.You have financial power: with power comes responsibility.

Maybe the bride price is paid by you to the mother? If so at the very least the mother should retain this to insure her daughter against your abandoning her. Why would a mother think the mere fact you own a big fat car or whatever make her daughter happy? If you were paying the girl in exchange for sex with you with a gift of a nice car of her very own, and more, then I can understand the reasoning. I suspect you are not paying these girls enough.

Is Heracleitos defined by his sexual satisfactions? Or is Heracleitos defined by something other than reactive passions?

[heracleitos]

Heracleitos, is the bride price held by you in trust for the woman when you no longer desire the woman? If the bride price is not to safeguard the woman's future then it must be for buying her.

She gets the money paid cash when we conclude the deal.
Beyond that, I don't care what she does with the money.
As I know most women, I can imagine that in her mind she spends the money five times over even before she gets it.

It's wrong to buy a man or a woman as if you had power over their feelings and intellects. It's ethical to buy human labour but only if ...

No. Disagreed.

The signon bonus, i.e. the mahar, is simply mandatory in Islamic law. There is absolutely no doubt about that.

In this context, the notions of right and wrong, i.e. halal and haram, are exclusively determined by syntactic entailment from religious law. Furthermore, such scriptural determination requires a jurisprudential advisory from a qualified religious scholar, who objectively and mechanically derives the answer from scripture. Furthermore, there needs to be ijma (consensus) between the ulema (religious scholars) on the matter.

In this context, you cannot just invent these things. That is the difference between Islam and atheism (or even Christianity).

This utmost rigid epistemic procedure, i.e. the usul al fiqh, is exactly the most striking difference between Islam and other moral theories. The advisory must respect all required, lengthy formalisms in order to be receivable. I do not always like bureaucracy, but in religious law, I am a great fan of it. Furthermore, I resolutely reject all other moral theories other than Islamic law, simply because these other things are invariably unserious.

[LuckyR]

Who said I have a problem with what you're doing? You just agreed with my use of the (accurate) word "buy". We're in agreement.

As a man, I do not objectify myself. I do not even like it. On the other hand, I can see that a lot of women want to do that. Just look at what they do on Instagram or OnlyFans. Still, I am absolutely not interested in preventing them from doing that, because in the end, who even cares?

The practice of paying a bride price, i.e. a sign-on bonus is something that women and their families adamantly insist on in this area of the world. Furthermore, the mahar is even mandatory in Islamic law.

These women absolutely want it like that. I obviously do not object in the least. Why would I?

That's why I asked about the plan for children. Sounds like you have some. What is the relationship with their mother?

Since we live in Asia and their mother is Asian, my kids are culturally mostly Asian. They are fluent in English, though. They have permanently always had an English tutor. Beyond that, they are mostly absorbed in this SE Asian environment in which they were born.

The relationship with their mother is typically what biology organizes. At a young age, the mother is clearly their preferred go-to person. The older they become, the more they deal with other people too. The mother then recedes in importance.

I suspect the truth is the latter, you likely don't really care what women think about you, based on your actions.

Over here, they would be more impressed with a big SUV than with lots of muscles. I could buy an SUV but its only use would then be to impress women, because myself, I do not even like cars. I also do not need one here. Everything here is at biking distance.

So, even though I do specifically care about not acting in violation of biological (and religious) rules, I do not particularly or necessarily care about individual opinions. That applies to both men and women, and not just to women.

A couple of clarifications.

First, part of the problem with your commentary is you use your personal situation (which <<1% of men worldwide can do) as the "male" example, and cherrypicked straw women as your (western) "female" example. Compare the two, then draw broad conclusions that, to be frank doesn't reflect anyone here's personal experience.

Second, I apologize for being difficult to understand, I was inquiring about your relationship with your baby momma, not your children's relationship with her.

Lastly, thanks for confirming my prediction that you don't spend an inordinate amount of energy thinking about how you appear to women. Why wouldn't you predict women would similarly spend very little time and energy thinking about how they appear to men? Especially, since as a non woman, you are not an expert in this area.

[heracleitos]

First, part of the problem with your commentary is you use your personal situation (which <<1% of men worldwide can do)

I am a digital nomad - nomad capitalist raised in the EU who now lives in SE Asia. I think that millions of men could conceivably do what I do. In fact, you don't need to be from the West to do this. Nowadays all opportunities are available to anyone.

Why wouldn't you predict women would similarly spend very little time and energy thinking about how they appear to men? Especially, since as a non woman, you are not an expert in this area.

I think that I have got most of my ideas on that matter from the main areas in the manosphere.

For example, nowadays, I watch Taylor The Fiend's videos almost on a daily basis. I find him incredibly funny. He chooses TikTok videos in which a woman complains about dating and of course about men, and then Taylor says things like: "Chad does not want to commit and now she says that all men are trash. She keeps chasing Chad. She is addicted to shopping above her price range."

Another super funny commentator is Wheat Waffles. He is tremendously black-pilled. His mainstay revolves around statements like "Your looks are everything", which I am quite sure is true for young middle class women, and "Never listen to what she says. Only look at what she does." or "Stacey makes rules for betas and breaks them for Chad."

So, quite a bit of what I believe about female behavior comes from the manosphere: the red and black pills, and mgtow. Does that make me an expert? Of course not. Does that make any of these YouTube channels an expert? Also not. All of that just happens to be what we believe about it.

The "effenist" movement revolves around women complaining about men. The manosphere is the mirror of that. It revolves around men complaining about women. It is the complete rejection of blue-pilled "romantic love", which in our opinion, does not exist, and which deviously manipulates men into simping for women.

But then again, only in the West the situation is truly unmanageable. Over here in SE Asian, we still have "relationshits" instead of mere "situationshits". Furthermore, Islamic law and its rules for niqah are an excellent tool to balance things out. By the way, the manosphere is wildly popular with Muslim men.

In conclusion, I am definitely not an expert on female behavior, and my opinions on the matter are not even original.

[Sy Borg]

First, part of the problem with your commentary is you use your personal situation (which <<1% of men worldwide can do)

I am a digital nomad - nomad capitalist raised in the EU who now lives in SE Asia. I think that millions of men could conceivably do what I do. In fact, you don't need to be from the West to do this. Nowadays all opportunities are available to anyone.

Yes, the former artists known as Gary Glitter famously took your path, though he presumably preferred his girls younger than you do, which landed him in prison.

[heracleitos]

First, part of the problem with your commentary is you use your personal situation (which <<1% of men worldwide can do)

I am a digital nomad - nomad capitalist raised in the EU who now lives in SE Asia. I think that millions of men could conceivably do what I do. In fact, you don't need to be from the West to do this. Nowadays all opportunities are available to anyone.

Yes, the former artists known as Gary Glitter famously took your path, though he presumably preferred his girls younger than you do, which landed him in prison.

At the moment, the American SEC are trying to prosecute Binance, which is a Chinese company founded in Shanghai, over which the SEC obviously do not hold any jurisdiction whatsoever. American laws simply do not apply outside the USA. The SEC's behavior is therefore very arrogant and very disrespectful.

My geopolitical point of view is that the Russian Federation must as soon as possible attack and destroy every single military base that NATO has built across the 1945 Yalta demarcation line in Eastern Europe in violation of the agreement concluded by Stalin and Roosevelt.

Furthermore, since the USA are now shipping weapons to the enemies of the Russian Federation, in my opinion, the Russian nuclear submarine fleet should therefore be tasked to interdict all maritime traffic across the Atlantic. Every single vessel on the high seas of the Atlantic must be arrested and inspected for contraband arms transport or else be promptly sunk. All respect is ultimately based on the fear for reprisals.

[Sy Borg]

First, part of the problem with your commentary is you use your personal situation (which <<1% of men worldwide can do)

I am a digital nomad - nomad capitalist raised in the EU who now lives in SE Asia. I think that millions of men could conceivably do what I do. In fact, you don't need to be from the West to do this. Nowadays all opportunities are available to anyone.

Yes, the former artists known as Gary Glitter famously took your path, though he presumably preferred his girls younger than you do, which landed him in prison.

At the moment, the American SEC are trying to prosecute Binance, which is a Chinese company founded in Shanghai, over which the SEC obviously do not hold any jurisdiction whatsoever. American laws simply do not apply outside the USA. The SEC's behavior is therefore very arrogant and very disrespectful.

My geopolitical point of view is that the Russian Federation must as soon as possible attack and destroy every single military base that NATO has built across the 1945 Yalta demarcation line in Eastern Europe in violation of the agreement concluded by Stalin and Roosevelt.

Furthermore, since the USA are now shipping weapons to the enemies of the Russian Federation, in my opinion, the Russian nuclear submarine fleet should therefore be tasked to interdict all maritime traffic across the Atlantic. Every single vessel on the high seas of the Atlantic must be arrested and inspected for contraband arms transport or else be promptly sunk. All respect is ultimately based on the fear for reprisals.

I'm not seeing the connection.