Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Gregory A]

Here is an argument, Why God is an Impossibility.

There are two types of perfection for philosophical consideration, i.e.

• 1. Relative perfection
  2. Absolute perfection

1. Relative perfection
If one's answers in an objective tests are ALL correct that is a 100% perfect score.
Perfect scores 10/10 or 7/7 used to be given to extra-ordinary performance in diving, gymnastics, skating, and the likes. So perfection from the relative perspective can happen and exist within man-made systems of empirically-based measurements.

2. Absolute perfection
Absolute perfection is an idea, ideal, and it is only a thought that can arise from reason and never the empirical at all.
Absolute perfection is an impossibility in the empirical, thus exist only theoretically.
Examples are perfect circle, square, triangle, etc.

Generally, perfection is attributed to God. Any god with less than perfect attributes would be subjected to being inferior to another's god. As such, God has to be absolutely perfect which is the ontological god, i.e. god is a Being than which no greater can be conceived.

So,

• Absolute perfection is an impossibility
  God, imperatively must be absolutely perfect
  Therefore God is an impossibility.

Can any theists counter the above?

If a god is a possibility then an impossibility disproves God. The Flying Spaghetti monster disproves God, in the same way, flying elephants disprove elephants. If something is a possibility then an impossibility is needed to refute that possibility every time. Perfection is a concept that would include apparent imperfections. The perfect place for example would include mosquitoes but to maintain perfection include mosquito repellants.

It the concept of absolute perfection is that of something impossible then God could not be compared to something with such a defect.

[EricPH]

God cant do everything. He can't create a rock so big that he cannot lift it. God created the universe and set galaxies, stars and planets in motion. Can anything greater be built or moved?

Absolute perfection cannot exist, hence there can be no perfect God. We are created in the image, likeness and nature of God, can God create anything greater than children in his own likeness?

Could God love all of his children as he loves himself? Can there be any greater reason to create children? Could God love us more than he loves himself?

Would it be more rewarding to be created by a God who loves us, rather than be created by a perfect God?

[Sy Borg]

God cant do everything. He can't create a rock so big that he cannot lift it.

When a rock becomes large enough, the pressure in its core results in nuclear fusion, and the "rock" becomes a star. Keep adding mass and the star collapses in on itself and becomes a neutron star. Keep adding mass and it becomes a black hole. Within the singularity of the black hole lies the God of the Gaps ...

Seriously, the deities of the Bible and Koran are somewhat of an improvement over Zeus, Odin and Jupiter, but not much. The deities are still thoroughly absurd, requiring of followers to swallow fanciful stories. To be fair, the stories are actually fables, the passing of ideas down the generations, told in metaphorical form, but they are rendered ridiculous by literal interpretation. The criteria of the OP are based on ancient Middle Eastern superstitions, and can be put aside to allow for fresh perspectives.

Disbelieving the obvious anthropomorphisms of ancient creeds doesn't discount the possibility that godlike entities exist. Perhaps deities are phenomena of other dimensions, or perhaps there is something beyond dopamine in spiritual experiences?

Consider NDEs. I'll give you one guess which group of people said they saw Jesus in their NDE.

And guess who saw Allah?

You know the answers, and you know what they mean. They are death dreams. Very special dreams, shaped by the brain's filters gradually shutting down as oxygen gradually runs out. That there is a physical correlate to those experiences does not discount their extraordinariness. Nor can we dismiss the life-changing experiences of participants in high-G experiments, nor the mind-blowing experiences gained via meditation, prayer or even dumb luck, nor those who were "transported" by ayahuasca or DMT.

That such experiences exist is worth investigation IMO, both scientific and philosophical.

[paradox]

God cant do everything. He can't create a rock so big that he cannot lift it.

The definition of God is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipresent.

If God creates stone so heavy it can't lift it again this mean God would diminish his omnipotence because he would no longer be omnipotent because it would no longer be able to lift the stone.
But God is omnibenevolent therefore God is not willing to harm itself such as limiting his omnipotence.
Therefore God can create the stone but is not willing, but this doesn't mean he is unable.

Similarly, I can kill myself but I love myself therefore I won't kill myself.
this doesn't mean I can't kill myself, I can but I won't do it because I love myself.

[Sy Borg]

It would be interesting to know the physics going on while a deity is in the process of lifting a rock.

[LuckyR]

God cant do everything. He can't create a rock so big that he cannot lift it.

The definition of God is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipresent.

If God creates stone so heavy it can't lift it again this mean God would diminish his omnipotence because he would no longer be omnipotent because it would no longer be able to lift the stone.
But God is omnibenevolent therefore God is not willing to harm itself such as limiting his omnipotence.
Therefore God can create the stone but is not willing, but this doesn't mean he is unable.

Similarly, I can kill myself but I love myself therefore I won't kill myself.
this doesn't mean I can't kill myself, I can but I won't do it because I love myself.

Well that's one definition of gods. A particularly illogical one, but just one of many.

[EricPH]

The definition of God is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipresent.

The only God worth searching for; is the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

[paradox]

The definition of God is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipresent.

If God creates stone so heavy it can't lift it again this mean God would diminish his omnipotence because he would no longer be omnipotent because it would no longer be able to lift the stone.
But God is omnibenevolent therefore God is not willing to harm itself such as limiting his omnipotence.
Therefore God can create the stone but is not willing, but this doesn't mean he is unable.

Similarly, I can kill myself but I love myself therefore I won't kill myself.
this doesn't mean I can't kill myself, I can but I won't do it because I love myself.

Well that's one definition of gods. A particularly illogical one, but just one of many.

No, not gods but God because it's logically impossible that multiple gods of same definition exists.
for example if there are 2 omnipotent God's which on of them is superior and which inferior?
They can't logically be both superior because superior God implies one God that is superior to every being, where all other beings are inferior.
2 omnipotent Gods may seek to destroy each other, so which one wins if both are omnipotent? it's nonsense.

[paradox]

It would be interesting to know the physics going on while a deity is in the process of lifting a rock.

If you read the bible you would know the physics.
God created everything by word rather than by hand or by anything physical.

ex. Genesis 1,3

And God said, “Let there be light,”

Therefore by word rather than by hand, would God raise such stone.

[Sy Borg]

It would be interesting to know the physics going on while a deity is in the process of lifting a rock.

If you read the bible you would know the physics.
God created everything by word rather than by hand or by anything physical.

That's called magic. In philosophy, we know magic does not exist. The deity referred to in the Bible refers to aspects of the psyche, but metaphor is lost on people today, especially Americans.

There is no physics because there is no God - certainly nothing like the aggressive idiot anthropomorphs claimed to exist by Middle Eastern goat herders of antiquity.

It is all imagination, every last bit of it. Just like Zeus, Jupiter and Odin. That is why there are no physics involved. That is why we don't see giant boulders bobbing in the air, lifted by God. That is why phenomena attributed to God has turned out to be explainable natural causes when tested - every single time, without fail. When that happens, believers simply move on to the next God of the Gaps.

God exists only in human minds.

[EricPH]

With or without God, something either had no beginning or something did not come from anything.

Both options require magic, so the rules of philosophy need updating.

[Sy Borg]

With or without God, something either had no beginning or something did not come from anything.

Both options require magic, so the rules of philosophy need updating.

Neither option requires magic, only physics yet to be understood. It's absurd to insert magic or deities into our gaps of knowledge. Time and again, that which was attributed to gods or God was found to have natural causes. If you read up about the experiences of volunteers in high-G experiments, you will find they are same as NDEs and other peak/spiritual experiences.

That reality is physical, does not make it any less admirable or remarkable. Nature is mind-blowing in countless ways. As Douglas Adams said, "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?".

It is okay to not know the more arcane aspects of reality. It's okay not to imagine that an anthropomorphic entity is present in every unknown aspect of reality. It's okay to appreciate that God is entirely subjective and that heaven or hell exists in life itself and in the time-dilated "afterlife" experienced during the brain's last few minutes of oxygen. If believing in the Bible results in an NDE that features a loving Jesus, as opposed to some hellish vision, then faith has done its job.

And why does hell always involve poor old geology? Fire and brimstone, swallowed by the Earth. Volcanoes, earthquakes and landslides. Yet these things made life possible. Rocks and minerals are beautiful, useful and fascinating. Consider sulphur - the element at fault for the foul smell of Hades:

Your body needs sulphur to build and fix your DNA and protect your cells from damage that can lead to serious diseases such as cancers. Sulphur also assists your body to metabolise food and contributes to the health of your skin, tendons, and ligaments.

The two amino acids that include sulphur are methionine and cysteine. Methionine is an essential amino acid that cannot be synthesised by your body and must be consumed from protein-based sources. Cysteine, on the other hand, is a non-essential amino acid and is synthesised by your body. You don't need to consume it directly, but you do need to consume sulphur in forms that can be used to produce this compound.

Cruciferous vegetables are a good source of this essential element of Hell, along with white meats, nuts and legumes.

[Sy Borg]

Eric, have you seen Robert Kuhn's YT series, Closer to Truth? He speaks with scientists, philosophers and theists of all types. His hope was to be convinced that God and the afterlife are real, as opposed to myth and fantasy respectively.

I very much related to Robert there, and hoped that the religious people he interviewed would give me food for thought. Sadly, they were all hopeless, invariably making the classic newbie error of treating scant or questionable evidence as proof, never daring to question their views. Not one was convincing, not even close to the logic and sense made by various scientists and philosophers.

Still, it's possible that there are extraordinary other dimensions to reality, and maybe people's minds tap into them during extreme experience. At this stage, based on current evidence, it appears that NDEs are brain phenomena, given that Christians tend to see Jesus and Muslims see Allah.

Importantly, there appears to be significant (subjective) time dilation during NDEs, so a subjective eternal afterlife may be lived in the last few minutes of a dying person's brain oxygen. I do not dismiss this. When a person is technically dead, the importance of reality and dreams are reversed, as the objective world becomes as accessible as dream worlds are to those who have awoken. At the end, one's subjective experience is everything.

So, it's not being dismissive to consider NDEs to be brain phenomena, as that final journey obviously matters, rendering heaven and hell effectively real.

[paradox]

It would be interesting to know the physics going on while a deity is in the process of lifting a rock.

If you read the bible you would know the physics.
God created everything by word rather than by hand or by anything physical.

That's called magic. In philosophy, we know magic does not exist. The deity referred to in the Bible refers to aspects of the psyche, but metaphor is lost on people today, especially Americans.

There is no physics because there is no God - certainly nothing like the aggressive idiot anthropomorphs claimed to exist by Middle Eastern goat herders of antiquity.

It is all imagination, every last bit of it. Just like Zeus, Jupiter and Odin. That is why there are no physics involved. That is why we don't see giant boulders bobbing in the air, lifted by God. That is why phenomena attributed to God has turned out to be explainable natural causes when tested - every single time, without fail. When that happens, believers simply move on to the next God of the Gaps.

God exists only in human minds.

If God is just magic and thus universe was not created by word of God then how is it possible that something be physically created if there are no laws of physics?
If in beginning there was nothing, therefore it's impossible for any physics to manifest itself, word (of God) is necessary.

[Sy Borg]

It would be interesting to know the physics going on while a deity is in the process of lifting a rock.

If you read the bible you would know the physics.
God created everything by word rather than by hand or by anything physical.

That's called magic. In philosophy, we know magic does not exist. The deity referred to in the Bible refers to aspects of the psyche, but metaphor is lost on people today, especially Americans.

There is no physics because there is no God - certainly nothing like the aggressive idiot anthropomorphs claimed to exist by Middle Eastern goat herders of antiquity.

It is all imagination, every last bit of it. Just like Zeus, Jupiter and Odin. That is why there are no physics involved. That is why we don't see giant boulders bobbing in the air, lifted by God. That is why phenomena attributed to God has turned out to be explainable natural causes when tested - every single time, without fail. When that happens, believers simply move on to the next God of the Gaps.

God exists only in human minds.

If God is just magic and thus universe was not created by word of God then how is it possible that something be physically created if there are no laws of physics?
If in beginning there was nothing, therefore it's impossible for any physics to manifest itself, word (of God) is necessary.

You are jumping to conclusions. If we don't yet know then you assume that "God dunnit". This is unsatisfactory from a philosophical POV.

There is nothing wrong with being unsure how the universe began. There are many things we don't know. Assuming that the universe was created by a deity dreamed up by Middle Eastern goat herders in the Iron Age is absurd. Why not Zeus or Odin? Or maybe the Aboriginal Rainbow Serpent? The ancients speculated aplenty and they described almost everything with metaphors, which is why modern fundamentalist theists believe such absurd things.

It's not just Christians. Islam has also been badly distorted and rendered toxic by demented literalism that interprets scriptures as if language and expression is exactly the same in all places and times.

Have you heard of Lawrence Krauss's book, A Universe From Nothing? He provides the most credible hypothesis for the Big Bang, as far as I know. I won't detail his ideas here as I have mentioned it on other threads, and I doubt it would interest you. The point is that credible hypotheses exist for those more interested in actual reality than bias confirmation.

One of the least likely "hypotheses" (speculations) is that the universe was created by a deity described in an Iron Age book written by various anonymous authors. The writers describe events handed down by (deeply unreliable) oral history centuries after the fact.