Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Consul]

Take any Conscious Experience you like (I like Redness) and show me how that Conscious Experience is the result of Neural Activity. It's the simplest question in the world. There's Neural Activity and then there's a Conscious Experience. How?

There's nonconscious/nonexperiential neural activity and then there's conscious/experiential neural activity. Again, it's a matter of empirical inquiry to discover those specific electrochemical parameters or factors in the neurodynamics of the brain which are responsible for a neural process's experientiality.

[Papus79]

Ah. Ooops! I meant that neurons aren't specialised within themselves. Of course they do stuff that other cells don't do, using their 'tentacles' to connect to their fellows, and thus magically create ... a mind???

At least not heavily, as far as I know there's only a couple types that are the majority - neurons and neuroglial, and there's a gray matter vs white matter divide.

What I was trying to say earlier though - what neurons specialize in, ie. information process and carriage, isn't unique to them. that get's back to ion channels with other kinds of cells.

[Sy Borg]

I am no expert in neurochemistry, but I think the merit of neurons, and the way they work, is that they are NOT specialised...? 🤔

So axon, dendrites, and all of the gapped myelin is something every other cell has?

If they're not optimized for cross-system communication then I'm not sure I understand what I'm looking at.

Maybe PC was referring to the neurons themselves not being specialised? Although that does not seem to be the case either: https://qbi.uq.edu.au/brain/brain-anatomy/types-neurons

So the answer to the question ‘What types of neurons are there?’ isn’t something we can fully answer yet. In the spinal cord, it is pretty simple. But part of what gives the brain its complexity is the huge number of specialised neuron types. Researchers are still trying to agree on what these are, and how they should be classified.

[Papus79]

Maybe PC was referring to the neurons themselves not being specialised? Although that does not seem to be the case either: https://qbi.uq.edu.au/brain/brain-anatomy/types-neurons

TY, I think we sorted out what I meant earlier.

[SteveKlinko]

Take any Conscious Experience you like (I like Redness) and show me how that Conscious Experience is the result of Neural Activity. It's the simplest question in the world. There's Neural Activity and then there's a Conscious Experience. How?

There's nonconscious/nonexperiential neural activity and then there's conscious/experiential neural activity. Again, it's a matter of empirical inquiry to discover those specific electrochemical parameters or factors in the neurodynamics of the brain which are responsible for a neural process's experientiality.

Ok, nobody knows right now, so it's future Research. Good enough.

[The Beast]

Consciousness. It is that the scope of the definition might be narrow or broad. The executive function receives values and makes decisions or thoughts. One decision might be to construct a thermostat with a display of temperature based upon information stored in a database outside the DNA domain. Instead of hot and cold the executive function has now an exact value and a historical chart. Further, it is also true that there is delegation of execution to a mathematical spectrum as in trading programs among other known instances. Since everyone has probable access, the accessories might be part of a collective consciousness. So, it is cold, and we think it is thirty-two. Everyone knows thirty-two. In the narrow definition, the thoughts of experience it is 32 and not a direct result. I correlate with one circulating idea is that it is very hot at the edge of the Universe and that is why we are accelerating. The so-called ring of fire catching information or metaphysical actions (not Universal) at play. If the thermostat is made of the same material as the particles of the body, then the narrow description of consciousness may not include anything outside the executive function (to include to and from) and experience takes a more broadly avenue. Since the executive function can delegate decision making, we can disregard the executive function from the term consciousness (in the narrow sense). I am left with a feeling of being alive but don’t know what this is as Socrates said.

[Papus79]

Consciousness. It is that the scope of the definition might be narrow or broad. The executive function receives values and makes decisions or thoughts. One decision might be to construct a thermostat with a display of temperature based upon information stored in a database outside the DNA domain. Instead of hot and cold the executive function has now an exact value and a historical chart. Further, it is also true that there is delegation of execution to a mathematical spectrum as in trading programs among other known instances. Since everyone has probable access, the accessories might be part of a collective consciousness. So, it is cold, and we think it is thirty-two. Everyone knows thirty-two. In the narrow definition, the thoughts of experience it is 32 and not a direct result. I correlate with one circulating idea is that it is very hot at the edge of the Universe and that is why we are accelerating. The so-called ring of fire catching information or metaphysical actions (not Universal) at play. If the thermostat is made of the same material as the particles of the body, then the narrow description of consciousness may not include anything outside the executive function (to include to and from) and experience takes a more broadly avenue. Since the executive function can delegate decision making, we can disregard the executive function from the term consciousness (in the narrow sense). I am left with a feeling of being alive but don’t know what this is as Socrates said.

I get the impression that we still really don't understand memory, or at least there is such a thing as a 'Jennifer Aniston' neuron but it's the exception rather than the rule. If I understand what Levin is suggesting with ion channels this 'smears out' memory storage as it's a whole system storing memory rather than an individual cell storing its own memory (which he suggested would wash out across two cells if they joined via their ion channels).

I'd also agree on the physicalism plus, at least in the scope of NDE's it seems like they can take with them what their brain and body still had in-tact at death (whereas if you're hit with meningitis, such as in Eben Alexander III's case, you're launched somewhere else like a baby with no memory of what went before). For those of us willing to at least entertain the veracity of what's suggested with these sorts of things it means, in my mind at least (and I've said it before in other places), there's just a lot more 'physical' to physicalism than we've understood to date. Same thing would be true of the U of Virginia talking about the issue of reincarnation and damage to the bioelectric template can persist across incarnations.

[SteveKlinko]

Consciousness. It is that the scope of the definition might be narrow or broad. The executive function receives values and makes decisions or thoughts. One decision might be to construct a thermostat with a display of temperature based upon information stored in a database outside the DNA domain. Instead of hot and cold the executive function has now an exact value and a historical chart. Further, it is also true that there is delegation of execution to a mathematical spectrum as in trading programs among other known instances. Since everyone has probable access, the accessories might be part of a collective consciousness. So, it is cold, and we think it is thirty-two. Everyone knows thirty-two. In the narrow definition, the thoughts of experience it is 32 and not a direct result. I correlate with one circulating idea is that it is very hot at the edge of the Universe and that is why we are accelerating. The so-called ring of fire catching information or metaphysical actions (not Universal) at play. If the thermostat is made of the same material as the particles of the body, then the narrow description of consciousness may not include anything outside the executive function (to include to and from) and experience takes a more broadly avenue. Since the executive function can delegate decision making, we can disregard the executive function from the term consciousness (in the narrow sense). I am left with a feeling of being alive but don’t know what this is as Socrates said.

In addition to a general sense of Being Alive, I am left with Experiences of Redness, Standard A Tone, Salty Taste, Smell of Bleach and the Touch of a rough Surface, and I don't know what they are.

[Atla]

.

And then the next person will be equally justified in asking: yeah but how does PM intertact with IM, and how does IM interact with CM? So then the next model will have to have 5 components, and the one after that 9, and then 17 and so on, spiraling out into infinity. Humans sure like to waste time on wrong ideas, anything to avoid thinking outside the box.

[SteveKlinko]

.

And then the next person will be equally justified in asking: yeah but how does PM intertact with IM, and how does IM interact with CM? So then the next model will have to have 5 components, and the one after that 9, and then 17 and so on, spiraling out into infinity. Humans sure like to waste time on wrong ideas, anything to avoid thinking outside the box.

It is a valid question to ask how the IM might connect with the Neurons. The best thinking is that it would use Quantum Mechanical phenomena like Tunneling or Quantum Fluctuations. The IM by definition contains all the functionality and Processing that is needed to convert Neural Activity to Conscious Experience. The IM might need several distinct Processes inside of it to perform the functionality of the definition.

[Atla]

The best thinking is that it would use Quantum Mechanical phenomena like

[SteveKlinko]

The best thinking is that it would use Quantum Mechanical phenomena like

Consciousness has been linked to QM right from the start.

[Atla]

The best thinking is that it would use Quantum Mechanical phenomena like

Consciousness has been linked to QM right from the start.

And the idea of the kind of link that would help your argument was abandoned since then. There may or may not be another link or links between QM and human consciousness that are actually real, but those kind of links probably won't help you.

For example, quantum fluctuations and tunneling happen all over the universe, and they start and end in the PM, there's zero reason to believe that they make a detour into an IM.

[SteveKlinko]

The best thinking is that it would use Quantum Mechanical phenomena like

Consciousness has been linked to QM right from the start.

And the idea of the kind of link that would help your argument was abandoned since then. There may or may not be another link or links between QM and human consciousness that are actually real, but those kind of links probably won't help you.

For example, quantum fluctuations and tunneling happen all over the universe, and they start and end in the PM, there's zero reason to believe that they make a detour into an IM.

You are wrong about the link to Consciousness being abandoned. It is alive and well. The link is that an IM and or CM might be able to affect Tunneling or QFs. The suggestion, even, that Consciousness can affect QM outcomes is a major driver for looking at these things. These are of course Speculations, but they are pretty good Speculations at this point in time where Science has Zero Explanation for Conscious Experience.

[Atla]

Consciousness has been linked to QM right from the start.

And the idea of the kind of link that would help your argument was abandoned since then. There may or may not be another link or links between QM and human consciousness that are actually real, but those kind of links probably won't help you.

For example, quantum fluctuations and tunneling happen all over the universe, and they start and end in the PM, there's zero reason to believe that they make a detour into an IM.

You are wrong about the link to Consciousness being abandoned. It is alive and well. The link is that an IM and or CM might be able to affect Tunneling or QFs. The suggestion, even, that Consciousness can affect QM outcomes is a major driver for looking at these things. These are of course Speculations, but they are pretty good Speculations at this point in time where Science has Zero Explanation for Conscious Experience.

As I implied in my first comment, according to Occam's razor your speculation is even worse than the scientific theory speculations.