Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[Greatest I am]

Hope was not what was supposed to be the gift.

His presence and leadership was.

Success in his mission. Fail.

Regards
DL

[Thomyum2]

Did Jesus resurrect in Heaven or in Hell?
Scriptures, as they often do, give both options as true.
The Bible does what it was created by the Jewish authors to do. Make us question and judge.
Without Midrash, the Bible is just another useless myth.
In one version, Jesus tells his fellow prisoner on the cross that they will both awaken in heaven.
Another version has Jesus awakening in hell, where he toils for 3 days.
One old adage might say, if one day is 1,000 years, Jesus is almost at his 2-year mark.
There is a confusion as to who received Jesus as a sacrifice, Satan, or the androgynous Yahweh.
If sacrificed to Satan, she rules the world.
If sacrificed to Yahweh, Jesus rules the world.
Into whose hands did Jesus ascend, Satan’s or Yahweh’s?
I cannot know where Jesus ended via the bible, but think there is a valuable moral lesson here, but do not quite have my finger on what it is. Help.
What is your best guess as to where Jesus is?
Regards
DL

I think you are correct that without a guide to interpretation, scriptures can be of limited use to most readers, as those writings were not intended to be read as the literal histories or empirical factual documents that we're accustomed to in today's scientific and academic world - it's long been my opinion that reading them as such and outside the context of a faith tradition be misleading. Unfortunately the course of history hasn't left us with a good authoritative 'midrash' for the Christian portion of the Bible, and trying to discern the value from among the many who've claimed to have a 'true' interpretation can be challenging, in my experience. For what it's worth, I'll give you some of my own thoughts on your questions, since I've found value of my own in this faith.

As I've always understood it, heaven and hell aren't literally 'places' but rather states of mind or of being - heaven being a state of union with God, and hell being its opposite - a state of separation from God and all that is good, a state of self-created suffering and isolation. Since for a Christian, Jesus represents God taking human form for the purpose or reconciling us with Him, the 3 days in hell I think can have a two-fold meaning to persons of the faith: the first, that in becoming human, God has undertaken to endure human suffering, to demonstrate the willingness to undergo that same pain and isolation that we ourselves experience, to share suffering with us in the worst places or states that we might find ourselves, even to death itself. And the second, that the purpose of becoming human and undergoing that suffering is to bring us back from it, to bring light into the darkest of places, so to speak - to give hope, as a couple of other posters have noted. So in other words, Jesus descended into hell out of necessity to fully become human, but also in order to fully accomplish the purpose of reaching all those who need and are willing to accept that help.

So with these interpretations, I'm not sure it makes sense to ask if Jesus was resurrected in heaven or hell as those terms apply more to us as humans, and resurrection is the very transcendence of those things. Resurrection is the overcoming of death - one is not resurrected 'to' a place or a state, but to life itself. It represents the accomplishment of God's purpose - that of defeat of suffering and death. I'm not sure I know how to answer the question about who received Jesus as a sacrifice. I think the term 'sacrifice' takes on a different meaning in this context - it's not a sacrifice in the older sense of an offering to please a god or gain their favor or appease their wrath. The difference here being that God is both making and receiving the sacrifice - receiving it as atonement for sin and wrong, and yet giving a very part of His own self as the sacrifice itself, but for the purpose of reconciliation for our benefit. Where is Jesus now? I think many Christians would answer that Jesus is alive now and with us now. That perhaps some might say that as God's being is not bodily or material in nature but spiritual and in that sense, can't be said to be anywhere, and yet is everywhere?

But I'm not an expert in theology by any means and these are difficult questions, so again just my thoughts here and I could be way off. But these some things I've absorbed from opportunities I've had of listening to Christians who are serious about their faith and able to explain and articulate it well.

[Alias]

I think you are correct that without a guide to interpretation, scriptures can be of limited use to most readers, as those writings were not intended to be read as the literal histories or empirical factual documents

How do you know this? For whom were they intended, if not readers? Why would they chronicle 'events', if they did not expect to be believed? what they What special skills or esoteric knowledge could the writers - of whom, remember, there were many, over a long period of time - have required of their future interpreters?

it's long been my opinion that reading them as such and outside the context of a faith tradition be misleading.

There are holy books reserved for the clergy of particular faiths. The bible, as it was edited and collated by the Councils of Nicaea, were intended as the foundation of Christianity, supported by its Judaic antecedents.

the course of history hasn't left us with a good authoritative 'midrash' for the Christian portion of the Bible

History had very little to do with it. The making and handling of that document was closely controlled by the catholic church and later the protestant branches.

As I've always understood it, heaven and hell aren't literally 'places' but rather states of mind or of being - heaven being a state of union with God, and hell being its opposite - a state of separation from God and all that is good, a state of self-created suffering and isolation. Since for a Christian, Jesus represents God taking human form for the purpose or reconciling us with Him, the 3 days in hell I think can have a two-fold meaning to persons of the faith: the first, that in becoming human, God has undertaken to endure human suffering, to demonstrate the willingness to undergo that same pain and isolation that we ourselves experience, to share suffering with us in the worst places or states that we might find ourselves, even to death itself. And the second, that the purpose of becoming human and undergoing that suffering is to bring us back from it, to bring light into the darkest of places, so to speak - to give hope, as a couple of other posters have noted. So in other words, Jesus descended into hell out of necessity to fully become human, but also in order to fully accomplish the purpose of reaching all those who need and are willing to accept that help. [/1quote]
Oh, that's sweet! Build a place of eternal punishment for wayward mortals who can't help being the way you create them and give in to the temptations you throw at them, blame them for all the evil in the world you made, then spend a weekend there and say "I feel your pain. So, now you'll comply and maybe I'll stop torturing you.... some of you... "

[Sy Borg]

Since for a Christian, Jesus represents God taking human form for the purpose or reconciling us with Him, the 3 days in hell I think can have a two-fold meaning to persons of the faith: the first, that in becoming human, God has undertaken to endure human suffering, to demonstrate the willingness to undergo that same pain and isolation that we ourselves experience, to share suffering with us in the worst places or states that we might find ourselves, even to death itself.

A minor point, but it strikes me that undergoing suffering and death is not nearly as much of a sacrifice if one knows what's going on and that all will be completely fixed up in a few days. It's not as though anyone else has risen from the dead, aside from https://gsgriffin.com/2016/12/08/other- ... us-christ/

[JackDaydream]

@Greatest I am

When I first saw your question appear on the site, it really troubled me because I have struggled with trying to understand the resurrection. I am sure many have also struggled with it, especially if they have been brought up to believe that they should accept that it happened as a matter of faith, unlike doubting Thomas.

Your question is a slightly different slant though because the issue of where Jesus went after resurrection is a bit different. There is the whole question as to what is heaven and hell? Some see them as states of consciousness and some as literal realities, as being entered into after death. Here, there is the dispute as to whether there is life after death and whether it is physical? As far as Jesus was concerned, as far as I can recall of my own religious upbringing in Catholicism, I was brought up to believe that Jesus descended to hell initially but ascended to heaven. However, that idea was also backed up with a belief that he made appearances to many witnesses in flesh and blood before ascending to heaven.

Thinking about the resurrection now, I find the Biblical account so difficult to interpret. The story does seem to follow the mythical pattern of others, such as Osiris. Part of the problem of knowing how to interpret the Bible is because so much goes back to the early Christian church, especially what became part of the canon and what books were excluded. Here, there is the big rift over Gnostic philosophy, which was more symbolic. In the last century there has been so much dispute as to whether the resurrection was physical or symbolic, including whether Jesus went on to Charlemagne, as in the grail legend.Also, some esoteric Christians have suggested that his resurrection was as a spiritual body, not a physical one.

[Belindi]

Like any other literature you interpret it either subjectively or not. Even a cookery recipe may be interpreted subjectively and old experienced cooks do so.

[EricPH]

If God has the knowledge and power to create the universe and life; then he also has the power to edit the Bible in the way he intends. Even if an all powerful emporer tried to corrupt the Bible; he would fail, because he would have to fight against God. I truthfully believe the Bible I read today; is the Bible that God intends me to read. It is written to inspire, encourage and give hope throughout our lives.

A minor point, but it strikes me that undergoing suffering and death is not nearly as much of a sacrifice if one knows what's going on and that all will be completely fixed up in a few days. It's not as though anyone else has risen from the dead, aside from https://gsgriffin.com/2016/12/08/other- ... us-christ/

If we truthfully believe as you say, then any suffering or sacrifice we suffer in life will be short lived; because it will be fixed by a greater good life after death. Christ's suffering, death and ressurection is to give us that same hope.

[JackDaydream]

@ErichPH
You speak of 'God editing the Bible' and 'the Bible that God intends me to read' and, independently of the question of whether God exists, I see the way you have worded this as problematic. Even if there is some kind of 'divine inspiration', it is human beings who wrote the Bible and who were involved in putting it together. To simply say that God wrote the Bible is a form of justification used by some religious authorities and it mystifies the human element of composition of The Bible. Saying that, I am not trying to suggest that you are not entitled to see the Bible as being written by God, but just pointing out a philosophical objection.

[EricPH]

@ErichPH
You speak of 'God editing the Bible' and 'the Bible that God intends me to read'

it is human beings who wrote the Bible and who were involved in putting it together.

Without God, the Bible is just a book of words. The technicalities of who wrote the Bible, which Gospels are included or not included are for accademics to ponder on. Humans wrote the Bible and put it together; but humans were not in control of how the Bible ended up - God was.

If God has power over the contents, that in a way gives him the power of an editor. The technicalities of how God had the Bible written or in the way he desrired has little meaning for me, other than he Did.

[Thomyum2]

Without God, the Bible is just a book of words. The technicalities of who wrote the Bible, which Gospels are included or not included are for accademics to ponder on. Humans wrote the Bible and put it together; but humans were not in control of how the Bible ended up - God was.

If God has power over the contents, that in a way gives him the power of an editor. The technicalities of how God had the Bible written or in the way he desrired has little meaning for me, other than he Did.

But couldn't that be said about everything - that God ultimately has control and final say over the outcome of all human affairs? And then that his self-revelation to us extends to all things we experience and is not limited to just the Bible?

[Sy Borg]

If God has the knowledge and power to create the universe and life; then he also has the power to edit the Bible in the way he intends. Even if an all powerful emporer tried to corrupt the Bible; he would fail, because he would have to fight against God. I truthfully believe the Bible I read today; is the Bible that God intends me to read. It is written to inspire, encourage and give hope throughout our lives.

A minor point, but it strikes me that undergoing suffering and death is not nearly as much of a sacrifice if one knows what's going on and that all will be completely fixed up in a few days. It's not as though anyone else has risen from the dead, aside from https://gsgriffin.com/2016/12/08/other- ... us-christ/

If we truthfully believe as you say, then any suffering or sacrifice we suffer in life will be short lived; because it will be fixed by a greater good life after death. Christ's suffering, death and ressurection is to give us that same hope.

It's not the same, Eric. Basically, Jesus committed suicide in the premeditated way, by means of "death by cop" - deliberately setting oneself up for execution. That is very different to undergoing the process without controlling it, as the mythical Jesus did. His two moments of doubt - Gethsemane and the "Why have you forsaken me?" statement on the cross are mitigating factors, admittedly, but insufficient to draw a true comparison between the choices of Jesus and our own far less controlled fates.

[Greatest I am]

Did Jesus resurrect in Heaven or in Hell?
Scriptures, as they often do, give both options as true.
The Bible does what it was created by the Jewish authors to do. Make us question and judge.
Without Midrash, the Bible is just another useless myth.
In one version, Jesus tells his fellow prisoner on the cross that they will both awaken in heaven.
Another version has Jesus awakening in hell, where he toils for 3 days.
One old adage might say, if one day is 1,000 years, Jesus is almost at his 2-year mark.
There is a confusion as to who received Jesus as a sacrifice, Satan, or the androgynous Yahweh.
If sacrificed to Satan, she rules the world.
If sacrificed to Yahweh, Jesus rules the world.
Into whose hands did Jesus ascend, Satan’s or Yahweh’s?
I cannot know where Jesus ended via the bible, but think there is a valuable moral lesson here, but do not quite have my finger on what it is. Help.
What is your best guess as to where Jesus is?
Regards
DL

I think you are correct that without a guide to interpretation, scriptures can be of limited use to most readers, as those writings were not intended to be read as the literal histories or empirical factual documents that we're accustomed to in today's scientific and academic world - it's long been my opinion that reading them as such and outside the context of a faith tradition be misleading. Unfortunately the course of history hasn't left us with a good authoritative 'midrash' for the Christian portion of the Bible, and trying to discern the value from among the many who've claimed to have a 'true' interpretation can be challenging, in my experience. For what it's worth, I'll give you some of my own thoughts on your questions, since I've found value of my own in this faith.

As I've always understood it, heaven and hell aren't literally 'places' but rather states of mind or of being - heaven being a state of union with God, and hell being its opposite - a state of separation from God and all that is good, a state of self-created suffering and isolation. Since for a Christian, Jesus represents God taking human form for the purpose or reconciling us with Him, the 3 days in hell I think can have a two-fold meaning to persons of the faith: the first, that in becoming human, God has undertaken to endure human suffering, to demonstrate the willingness to undergo that same pain and isolation that we ourselves experience, to share suffering with us in the worst places or states that we might find ourselves, even to death itself. And the second, that the purpose of becoming human and undergoing that suffering is to bring us back from it, to bring light into the darkest of places, so to speak - to give hope, as a couple of other posters have noted. So in other words, Jesus descended into hell out of necessity to fully become human, but also in order to fully accomplish the purpose of reaching all those who need and are willing to accept that help.

So with these interpretations, I'm not sure it makes sense to ask if Jesus was resurrected in heaven or hell as those terms apply more to us as humans, and resurrection is the very transcendence of those things. Resurrection is the overcoming of death - one is not resurrected 'to' a place or a state, but to life itself. It represents the accomplishment of God's purpose - that of defeat of suffering and death. I'm not sure I know how to answer the question about who received Jesus as a sacrifice. I think the term 'sacrifice' takes on a different meaning in this context - it's not a sacrifice in the older sense of an offering to please a god or gain their favor or appease their wrath. The difference here being that God is both making and receiving the sacrifice - receiving it as atonement for sin and wrong, and yet giving a very part of His own self as the sacrifice itself, but for the purpose of reconciliation for our benefit. Where is Jesus now? I think many Christians would answer that Jesus is alive now and with us now. That perhaps some might say that as God's being is not bodily or material in nature but spiritual and in that sense, can't be said to be anywhere, and yet is everywhere?

But I'm not an expert in theology by any means and these are difficult questions, so again just my thoughts here and I could be way off. But these some things I've absorbed from opportunities I've had of listening to Christians who are serious about their faith and able to explain and articulate it well.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Gnostic Christians share about the same view of heaven and hell being internal states. No supernatural, thank all the gods.

We also can see the evolving perfection of our reality. Heaven with a bit of trash.

The best of all possible worlds, given our past.

A couple of things I did not accept, this being the one that matters most.

"receiving it as atonement for sin and wrong,"

If there is sin and wrong, it was created by Yahweh, and justice says he must die for his own sins.

Just as Jewish law demands, and that Jesus taught. Not have his innocent son die.

"But I'm not an expert in theology by any means and these are difficult questions, "

All answered when one religion is known from top to bottom, and you see how and why it was designed.

Keep being an esoteric ecumenist, you will get it.

Non-questioning minds are dull. Keep shining.

Regards
DL

[EricPH]

Basically, Jesus committed suicide in the premeditated way,

Jesus challenged the way people were using religion in the day; very much like the way you challenge religion today.

If there is a purpose in life worth living for; it would also be a purpose worth dying for. Life is not risk free.

[Greatest I am]

Basically, Jesus committed suicide in the premeditated way,

Jesus challenged the way people were using religion in the day; very much like the way you challenge religion today.

If there is a purpose in life worth living for; it would also be a purpose worth dying for. Life is not risk free.

Especially when you have decided to suicide to try and fail a prophesy that goes directly against the Jewish law of the guilty dying for his own sins.

Christians have to sin to be saved by a scapegoat Jesus.

That is Jesus' moral law, and Christians do not mind breaking it. In fact, they are eager.

Regards
DL

[Sy Borg]

Basically, Jesus committed suicide in the premeditated way,

Jesus challenged the way people were using religion in the day; very much like the way you challenge religion today.

If there is a purpose in life worth living for; it would also be a purpose worth dying for. Life is not risk free.

Causes worth dying for are just a death wish in code - "If [X] does not happen in this life then I will die".

People often refer to a cause worth dying for. It may be better to work for their causes rather than dying for them. Grafting through difficult, unrecognised work is less glamorous and lauded than throwing one's life away. It is also more sane, ethical and, ultimately, effective.