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SteveKlinko wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 11:14 am I would like to emphasize the reason that all current Scientific (or even non Scientific) theories of Consciousness fail.Again? I think everyone contributing to this thread has a clear understanding of the points you make ... and re-make.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 11:23 amJust making sure.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 11:14 am I would like to emphasize the reason that all current Scientific (or even non Scientific) theories of Consciousness fail.Again? I think everyone contributing to this thread has a clear understanding of the points you make ... and re-make.
SteveKlinko wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 9:26 amThe truth of reductive materialism (or any other metaphysical position regarding the mind-body problem) isn't deductively or inductively inferable from the empirical facts concerning psychophysical correlations; but there is yet another, however weaker type of logic: abduction. My contention is that reductive materialism (the materialist mind-brain identity theory) provides the best, most plausible ontological explanation of the psychophyiscal correlations in the light of our scientific knowledge of the world and philosophical considerations based on it.Consul wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 2:49 am"The thing that is in your mind" may well be a subjective display of neuroelectric fireworks!There is Neuroelectric Fireworks and there is Conscious Experience. It is a Speculation to say they are the same thing. There certainly is no chain of Logic that gets you to that conclusion. But, of course, maybe someday someone will come up with a chain of Logic.
Consul wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 1:04 pmDeductive, Inductive, or Abductive, it is still a Speculation and is not an Explanation.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 9:26 amThe truth of reductive materialism (or any other metaphysical position regarding the mind-body problem) isn't deductively or inductively inferable from the empirical facts concerning psychophysical correlations; but there is yet another, however weaker type of logic: abduction. My contention is that reductive materialism (the materialist mind-brain identity theory) provides the best, most plausible ontological explanation of the psychophyiscal correlations in the light of our scientific knowledge of the world and philosophical considerations based on it.Consul wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 2:49 am"The thing that is in your mind" may well be a subjective display of neuroelectric fireworks!There is Neuroelectric Fireworks and there is Conscious Experience. It is a Speculation to say they are the same thing. There certainly is no chain of Logic that gets you to that conclusion. But, of course, maybe someday someone will come up with a chain of Logic.
"In a deductively valid inference, it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false. In an inductively strong inference, it is improbable (to some degree) that the conclusion is false given that the premises are true. In an abductively weighty inference, it is implausible that the premises are true and the conclusion is false. The abductive type of inference tends to be the weakest of the three kinds."
(Walton, Douglas N. "Abductive, Presumptive and Plausible Arguments." Informal Logic 21/2 (2001): 141-169. p. 143)
SteveKlinko wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 1:16 pmDeductive, Inductive, or Abductive, it is still a Speculation and is not an Explanation.If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!
SteveKlinko wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 1:16 pmDeductive, Inductive, or Abductive, it is still a Speculation and is not an Explanation.
Consul wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 3:55 pm If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!Only a deductive argument, correctly-formed using valid premises, is conclusive. All else might reasonably be described as "speculative", guesswork, uncertain, inconclusive and so on.
Consul wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 3:55 pm If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!From the Stanford article on Abduction, that you linked:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote:Abduction is normally thought of as being one of three major types of inference, the other two being deduction and induction. The distinction between deduction, on the one hand, and induction and abduction, on the other hand, corresponds to the distinction between necessary and non-necessary inferences. In deductive inferences, what is inferred is necessarily true if the premises from which it is inferred are true; that is, the truth of the premises guarantees the truth of the conclusion.This says what I said in my last post, but worded better, and with the authority of Stanford behind it.
Consul wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 3:55 pmBut the Connectist view presents a whole new of understanding these things:SteveKlinko wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 1:16 pmDeductive, Inductive, or Abductive, it is still a Speculation and is not an Explanation.If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!
(An argument is sound if and only if it is logically valid and its premises are true.)
All metaphysical hypotheses or theories are more or less speculative or conjectural (and so are some physical theories too); but reductive materialism does give a general ontological explanation of why all mental/experiential events are correlated with neural events: because for all mental/experiential events there is some neural event with which they are identical. I think that is the best ontological explanation!
For as soon as you step into the murky waters of psychological nonreductionism and dualism, you'll get into deep trouble with natural science and the laws of physics. For example, the only way for nonreductive (emergent) materialism to avoid that trouble is to (implausibly) embrace epiphenomenalism about mental phenomena.
(In my view, ontological property emergentism is generally incoherent; so emergent materialism doesn't have to include epiphenomenalism in order for it to become incredible.)
UniversalAlien wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 11:02 pm "Why All Current Scientific Theories Of Consciousness Fail"Specifically, the Conscious Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Taste of Salt, the Smell of Bleach, and the Touch of a Rough Surface, are all things that Exist in the Manifest Universe. It is completely not Scientific to dismiss these things, just because Science cannot deal with them at this point in time.
1. Consciousness would have to be defined exactly - And be a thing that could be defined exactly
2. Consciousness would then have to be proven to exist
3. Consciousness is not a scientific term, it is a relative and imaginary concept, like concepts of mysticism
4. Science is the study of what is real, visible, touchable, or in some way shape size or form measurable
- You can do none of those things with consciousness until you first prove its existence and can measure its existence
5. Black Holes and Gravity Waves were hypotheticals that were eventually proven to be real and measurable.
- But what we have seen, as demonstrated in this discussion, is that nobody is even sure of what they are looking for
in the first place - Therefor, as of now, consciousness is out of the realm of science and is in the realm of fantasy and mysticism
Papus79 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2021, 2:19 pm I really think we have way too many moves to make before we can actually explain what consciousness is at its base. It seems like all of the ideas outlined in the OP are too rough, too absolute. The universe doesn't particularly care what we need for memory aids or what a proposal needs to do in order to distinguish itself enough from the other proposals in order to get its own grant funding. It's doing what it's doing.Adding a sentence that got lost in the shuffle - we still need all of these ideas for triage purposes (something I think most of us if not all agree on). I wouldn't discount them, I also wouldn't claim that they can serve other purposes - at least at this time - other than triage.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑December 5th, 2021, 8:38 amYes, deduction is the only sort of inference where given the truth of the premises, the probability that the conclusion is true is 1, which means that its truth is logically certain. There is no logical certainty in the case of induction or abduction. Inductive reasoning is probable reasoning; but if an inductive conclusion is true with a very high degree of probability, I wouldn't call it speculative—as opposed to abductive conclusions, where there is no objectively quantifiable probabilistic relationship between the premises and the conclusion.Consul wrote: ↑December 4th, 2021, 3:55 pm If "speculation" means "conjecture" or "surmise", then sound deductive or inductive arguments are non-speculative!From the Stanford article on Abduction, that you linked:
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote:Abduction is normally thought of as being one of three major types of inference, the other two being deduction and induction. The distinction between deduction, on the one hand, and induction and abduction, on the other hand, corresponds to the distinction between necessary and non-necessary inferences. In deductive inferences, what is inferred is necessarily true if the premises from which it is inferred are true; that is, the truth of the premises guarantees the truth of the conclusion.This says what I said in my last post, but worded better, and with the authority of Stanford behind it.
Papus79 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2021, 2:21 pmYes, Triage is a good way to look at it. We can put more time into the Theory that is the least Sick or Injured. But maybe the sickest Theory right now will be the winner someday. But in reality all Theories are still on the table when it comes to Explaining Conscious Experience.Papus79 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2021, 2:19 pm I really think we have way too many moves to make before we can actually explain what consciousness is at its base. It seems like all of the ideas outlined in the OP are too rough, too absolute. The universe doesn't particularly care what we need for memory aids or what a proposal needs to do in order to distinguish itself enough from the other proposals in order to get its own grant funding. It's doing what it's doing.Adding a sentence that got lost in the shuffle - we still need all of these ideas for triage purposes (something I think most of us if not all agree on). I wouldn't discount them, I also wouldn't claim that they can serve other purposes - at least at this time - other than triage.
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