Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Club for Open-Minded Discussion & Debate

[JackDaydream]

I have been reading, This is Your Brain on Music: Understanding a Human Obsession,' by Daniel Levithin(2006). The author is a neuroscientist and has been a record producer. He explores the way music is connected to the brain and mental states. He asks, 'What is music? ' He considers the way music is based on aspects such as pitch, rhythm and tempo, saying, 'When we listen to music, we are actually perceiving multiple attributes or "dimensions". This may be the objective part of music.

However, he also considers the way in which people develop unique tastes. In particular, he speaks of neuroplasticity, suggesting that people often cling to music they grew up with. Personally, I grew up listening to pop and rock music, and can't relate to classical or opera at all. However, as a student I explored all the indie music, like The Stone Roses, some nu metal and some psychedelic dance music. Perhaps, what music we listen to says something about unique states of emotional aesthetics. So, where does music take you to? To what extent does music affect one's mental state or mood, for better or worse?

[Pattern-chaser]

I have been reading, This is Your Brain on Music: Understanding a Human Obsession,' by Daniel Levithin(2006). The author is a neuroscientist and has been a record producer. He explores the way music is connected to the brain and mental states. He asks, 'What is music? ' He considers the way music is based on aspects such as pitch, rhythm and tempo, saying, 'When we listen to music, we are actually perceiving multiple attributes or "dimensions". This may be the objective part of music.

I think the "objective part" of music is tedious - as regards music - and trivial. The notes and the construction of the instruments, the rhythm, and so forth. Like the "objective part" of painting: the pigments, the canvas, the brushes and palette knives that are used to apply the paint. There is no real objective part of any art-form, I don't think.

However, he also considers the way in which people develop unique tastes. In particular, he speaks of neuroplasticity, suggesting that people often cling to music they grew up with. Personally, I grew up listening to pop and rock music, and can't relate to classical or opera at all. However, as a student I explored all the indie music, like The Stone Roses, some nu metal and some psychedelic dance music. Perhaps, what music we listen to says something about unique states of emotional aesthetics. So, where does music take you to? To what extent does music affect one's mental state or mood, for better or worse?

Music is amazingly effective on humans, and on some animals too? I listen to folk, rock, jazz and some classical too, although like you, I can't abide opera. My mood? I'm not sure if it changes my mood, but I certainly select the music I want to hear according to my current mood. The wrong music at the wrong time can also have a negative effect, as you imply.

[Thomyum2]

Hi JackDaydream,

This is an interesting topic for me as I've spent much of my life as a dedicated amateur studying, playing, (and more recently also teaching) classical music. I have not read this particular book, but coincidentally, I was just given a copy of another book by this same author, 'The World in Six Songs', as a thank-you gift by some of my music students, which I've been planning to read soon. So I can't comment on what this author's argument is, but I will share a few of my own thoughts on the topic.

I consider music to be a form of communication, almost like language, but one which operates for many, if not most, people at a subconscious level. The patterns in music are ones that our minds learn to recognize, so there are elements that become familiar. But musicians - performers or composers - will take these patterns and arrange them in ways to make them fresh and new, surprising or interesting. So I think music (and all arts for that matter) always exists on a continuum between the familiar and unfamiliar, the expected and the unexpected, the traditional and the new, and this changes and evolves over time. Musical invention and innovation, when successful, becomes incorporated into our lives and memory in a given generation or era, and so comes to constitute a part of the culture of that time.

So what's been so interesting for me has been to discover that music has the power to communicate - to transmit a cultural experience from one person or persons to others. We can listen to music just to react to it - to decide that we enjoy it or not - and this is what I mean in saying that most people experience it subconsciously. But we can also listen to music not just for how it feels, but for what it is saying. This means listening consciously, with an aim to understand - to learn to recognize the language that the musician is using, to hear the 'story' that the composer is trying to tell. This is part of what I try to teach to my students of classical music.

It's a great topic and I'd love to pursue it further. I'm interested to hear your and others' thoughts or questions.

[JackDaydream]

@Pattern-chaser
I am not sure about the objective nature of music really because I find that it can sound so different according to one's state of mind and, so I think it has a phenomenological aspect. Yesterday evening, I just spent so long before I could find the right music to play, and I hop from genre to genre.

I used to spend so much time listening to The Doors and I a strange effect on my mental state. I have to admit that I have a liking for Nirvana, but my intuition is that it is best not to listen to it all the time. I do like folk as well, and think that finding the right music for each time is important and has an essential role in balancing the inner landscape of emotions and aesthetics.

[JackDaydream]

@Thomyum
Thank you for your reply and I don't believe that I have ever interacted before on the forum. I am sure that you come from such a different background to me and I am not even a musician. However, music plays such a central part in my life, which is why I have begun a thread on it. I find that music is bound up with the search for meaning, like reading philosophy. I can remember even going to shops and exchanging CDs for different ones a a teenager because I didn't agree with the lyrics. It may have bordered a bit onto the 'neurotic' and I don't analyse lyrics in that way any longer. However, I see music as being so interconnected with inspiration states of consciousness and peak experiences and inspiration. Ideally, I would like this thread to open up discussion with people with various music tastes, including those with classical tastes and, even musicians on the site, because I think that music and consciousness may be worthy of philosophy discussion. Music is a language which may communicate what cannot be expressed in words.

[JackDaydream]

@Thomyum2
I missed out the 2, so please hope that you see the post above and I hope that you are not disappointed if more people from similar musical backgrounds as yourself don't join in the discussion. I would love this thread to create a worthwhile philosophy discussion about music.

[Robert66]

It is interesting to me that Jack Daydream wrote in the OP 'I grew up listening to pop and rock music, and can't relate to classical or opera at all', and then in reply Pattern Chaser wrote 'I listen to folk, rock, jazz and some classical too, although like you, I can't abide opera'.

What's going on here? Each of the listed genres contain such diversity. Several times in my life I have heard people say "I hate jazz" but I find it puzzling - are we talking about Louis Armstrong or Haitus Kaiyote; Miles Davis or Lou Donaldson? (btw I like all of them)

Listening without prejudice (thank you George Michael, RIP) what do you really prefer?

This (rock): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T0utQ- ... FergieVEVO

or this (opera): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAqHQMX ... avaradossi

Thanks Thomyum for your thoughtful comments.

[JackDaydream]

@Robert66
If I really did say that I listen to some classical it may have been an interesting 'Freudian slip', but what is interesting in your reply is where the genres merge, especially in crossovers. For example, there has been experimentation in mixing dance and metal by artists like Skrillex and the band Pendulum.

George Michael may be right to say that we should listen without prejudice and, who knows, I may end up listening to Beerhoven oneday, although I do wonder if bands like Pink Floyd bring in a certain amount of classical. One musician who I am extremely interested in is Tim Wheater and his whole idea of 'sound healing', because I believe that he used this aspect as part of a process of recovery after a period of disabiliting physical illness.

[Robert66]

If I really did say that I listen to some classical it may have been an interesting 'Freudian slip', but what is interesting in your reply is where the genres merge, especially in crossovers. For example, there has been experimentation in mixing dance and metal by artists like Skrillex and the band Pendulum.

No, you wrote that you 'can't relate to classical or opera at all'. Pattern Chaser chimed in with 'can't abide opera' but his extra note was discordant, I thought. This prompted me to write.

If you have watched a movie you have probably related to classical music. Why do you think classical music features so heavily in movie soundtracks? And about opera - listen to those 100+ year old, waxed cylinder recordings of Enrico Caruso (E lucevan le stelle being a prime example) and tell me if they move you at all.

Re experimentation: it is fundamental to music. I can do no better than repeat Thomyum: 'music ... is a continuum between the familiar and unfamiliar, the expected and the unexpected, the traditional and the new, and this changes and evolves over time'. But the point I was trying to make was that it is nonsensical to just say "I hate jazz" (or classical music, or opera, or ...) when these genres are so diverse. To illustrate my point, I listed 4 "jazz" artists who differ extremely. Better to try and listen, and try to describe, and discuss music, without prejudice, however difficult it may be to do that.

I too am interested in the merging or crossing of genres, or just about any kind of musical collaboration. One of my favourite musical 'mergings' is that of Ballake Sissoko and Vincent Segal. Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtiTfej ... l=NPRMusic

Thanks for mentioning Tim Wheater. I have been listening while writing this, and find the music soothing.

[Robert66]

And now I ask myself "Is there a musical genre which I can't abide at all"? Tempted to answer Pop music, but then I think "What about The Final Countdown by Europe"? What an "earworm", and owing a great deal to classical music foundations laid down centuries ago.

Now for something completely different - [key "Motown" into search engine] - hours of music which literally moves me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCvsikX ... ulianMalka

[JackDaydream]

@Robert66
I thought that I wrote that I couldn't relate to classical music or opera at all, and I know that I did really badly at music at school because that was based on accepted traditions. However, there is such diversity of choice and styles, so a lot may be bound up with culture and even counterculture. Even the dialogue between countercultural and mainstream music is complex because what may be seen as countercultural may merge with accepted norms. Punk is probably seen so differently from when it first appeared on the music scene. Of course, it was not just about music but a whole approach to style, but it may be that there is more 'designer punk' now. That may be about style, but even within music there is so much retro, and one could ask is there much scope and possibilities for future originality in countercultural musical innovations?

[Gee]

I have been reading, This is Your Brain on Music: Understanding a Human Obsession,' by Daniel Levithin(2006). The author is a neuroscientist and has been a record producer. He explores the way music is connected to the brain and mental states. He asks, 'What is music? ' He considers the way music is based on aspects such as pitch, rhythm and tempo, saying, 'When we listen to music, we are actually perceiving multiple attributes or "dimensions". This may be the objective part of music.

However, he also considers the way in which people develop unique tastes. In particular, he speaks of neuroplasticity, suggesting that people often cling to music they grew up with. Personally, I grew up listening to pop and rock music, and can't relate to classical or opera at all. However, as a student I explored all the indie music, like The Stone Roses, some nu metal and some psychedelic dance music. Perhaps, what music we listen to says something about unique states of emotional aesthetics. So, where does music take you to? To what extent does music affect one's mental state or mood, for better or worse?

I agree with some of the other members, who see music as a form of communication. As such is it possible that limiting the types of music that one is exposed to while growing up may also limit the ability to relate to some types of music? Much like a child that grows up knowing only one language, and not relating to other languages? We know that exposure to more than one language in early childhood allows and encourages the child to accept and learn alternate languages.

Having been raised with a great variety of music, and an appreciation for music, I often find it odd that some people do not like certain kinds of music. From my experience, I have found that every type and genre of music has some good, even great, pieces, but also some that I would not care to hear again. Like any art, some is good, and some is not so good, no matter the style.

As far as opera is concerned, a person who likes rock music should enjoy Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Jesus Christ Superstar" and anyone who enjoys blues should have no problem relating to Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue". I think I fell in love with Rhapsody in Blue when I was about six years old. My brother and I used to put it on the record player and put our ears right up to the speaker. I suspect that a lot of people do not like opera because of snobbery or maybe reverse snobbery and the fact that too much of it is not in English.

Also, we must remember that music is not just what we produce, nature gives us the birds singing, the crickets chirping, the waves crashing, the wind in the trees -- music.

Gee

[JackDaydream]

@Gee
I do believe in being as open minded about listening to all kinds of music, and it is true that there may even be some reverse snobbery against opera. It probably comes down to associations. In a way, it is like music can open doorways to certain universes of images and ideas. Certain pieces of music may evoke such strong memories, especially the music of childhood. You are also make an important point in saying how sounds in general are a form of music. Also, the senses are interrelated and auditory experiences are important in relation to all the other senses.

There is the concept of 'good' music too, in each of the genres too. It may not just be about popularity, but about certain 'quality', which may make it stand out. For example, some music seems to get remembered for a long time while some fades away. Of course, this may come down to the techniques of performers. I also wonder if it may be about the state of consciousness of the musicians. It may be that music takes the audience or listener into possible communicated forms of consciousness or those who made it. This does come back to the issue of objectivity and it may be that musical appreciation has both objective and subjective aspects.

[Pattern-chaser]

I am not sure about the objective nature of music really because I find that it can sound so different according to one's state of mind and, so I think it has a phenomenological aspect. Yesterday evening, I just spent so long before I could find the right music to play, and I hop from genre to genre.

Yes, this is what music's all about, as Thomyum2 also says. The "objective" aspects of music are too trivial (in this context) to bother with.

I used to spend so much time listening to The Doors and I a strange effect on my mental state. I have to admit that I have a liking for Nirvana, but my intuition is that it is best not to listen to it all the time. I do like folk as well, and think that finding the right music for each time is important and has an essential role in balancing the inner landscape of emotions and aesthetics.

I love The Doors, and will always be sad that I didn't discover them and their music until Jim was already dead. I bought my 1st Doors album - Strange Days - around 1974. The rest followed very soon after. On vinyl, of course. Between them, they spent many hours spinning on my turntable. I found Nirvana less attractive; I started on (heavy) rock, but my tastes diversified in many directions, but not all that much in the direction of heavy (and heavier) rock.

Doors, Dylan, Waits, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Pentangle, Soft Machine, Henry Cow, Schubert, Joni Mitchell, Chopin, Eno, Debussy, Janis Ian, Hendrix, (early) Genesis, Van der Graaf Generator, Patti Smith, the Clash, Wailers, Yazoo, U-Roy, Beatles ... and these days, add anything jazz, from Art Tatum in the 1920s to the Espen Eriksen trio in the 2020s.

Music was what I grew up with. My sons grew up attached to video and (just a little later) gaming, but they left me cold: I was already too old! So I spent my leisure time and money on music (and hi-fi to play it on).

[Pattern-chaser]

[To JackDaydream] You wrote that you 'can't relate to classical or opera at all'. Pattern Chaser chimed in with 'can't abide opera' but his extra note was discordant, I thought.

Sorry about that. As regards opera, I dislike all of it. It's not the music, it's the style of singing that repels me. I have many pieces of classical vocal music of all kinds, except opera. I find it annoying that the operatic singing-style can make English lyrics sound like they're in Italian. They swallow the words so that they become unintelligible. It just annoys me.

As you say, there are a myriad of music styles and types, and there are veins of richness there for almost every person. But we all like different things.

The very worst criminals are people like my late father-in-law, who would tell others "your music is rubbish; only MY music is good". This is arrant nonsense, of course. People like him told me that in my teens, so (as most teenagers would) I rebelled and ignored classical music until my early 40s. Such a shame, and a waste of time. I could've been enjoying Debussy and Ravel 20 years earlier, if not for those bigots.

<Rant>
There is no such thing as bad music, or good. There is only music that you like, and music that you don't.
Everyone's choice of music is a little different; this is to be celebrated.
</Rant>