SteveKlinko wrote: ↑November 28th, 2021, 3:06 pm
I have given the Illusion proposition all the consideration that it deserves. Decades worth of consideration. Illusionism of one form or another has always been there making a mockery out of the Reality of the World as I know it. There is no Chain of Logic that takes you from the Conscious Visual Experience that I have, to the realization that it is not really there. This is pure Hucksterism. They have got to do better than that. It's almost as if the Illusionists actually do not have Conscious Experiences like I have. They may be Experiencing more at the level of the Neural activity and actually do not have the Qualia of the Visual Experiences. Maybe the Lights are out in their Minds. Seems to me the usual move that I see with Illusionism is that they are the ones, in fact, casually dismissing Conscious Experience. It is up to them to Explain how what is so Obviously true can be so Illusory and wrong.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 30th, 2021, 9:13 am
The thing is, we're looking here for something that current knowledge and wisdom simply doesn't cover. We're looking for something new, that we don't currently have. In this context, I find it odd that you will casually discard ideas that might prove useful without evidence. You seem to just dislike them, so you throw them away. How will you find what you're looking for, if you won't consider such possibilities as there are?
Your 'arguments' against (in this case) 'illusionism' are little more than insults. I see little or no logic in your dismissal.
SteveKlinko wrote: ↑November 30th, 2021, 10:51 am
It's that High Def, Wide Screen, multi Color, Visual Experience that I use to move around in the World without bumping into things. This Visual Experience is there, and it has a purpose. If you did not have that Experience you would bump into things.
I don't take issue with this, but it has no relevance (that I can see) to the discussion we're having here.
SteveKlinko wrote: ↑November 30th, 2021, 10:51 am
Sorry, you can have an open mind about things but as the old saying goes: Don't be so open minded that your Brain falls out of your head and onto the floor.
Oh yes, very drole. I think perhaps you have missed the point of the warning carefully concealed within this 'witticism'. Consider this, if you will:
SteveKlinko wrote: ↑November 30th, 2021, 10:51 am
If you want to continue your study of Conscious Experience with the starting point that it doesn't really exist then your journey is over. I start with the assumption that my Conscious Experiences are real things that must be and can be understood. I do understand that you are not alone in this incomprehensible proposition. But we are at an Impasse on this.
I don't know whether this is a straw-man argument, or whether it has its own Latin description. I have always called it 'Binary Thinking'. Whatever we call it, it is a logical fallacy, one that is more common than it should be.
The misunderstanding here is that
considering possibilities is the same as
accepting them as true, or
believing them to be true, without justification. It is very-definitely
not the same. On the contrary, if our considerations lead us to
blindly believe/accept what we are considering, we're doing it
wrong.
Possibilities are just that. If we're looking for a solution that our current thinking doesn't offer, then we must necessarily consider other, different, possibilities. That doesn't mean that the ones we look at are the right ones, only that we don't yet have the right ones, so any
possibility is just that: a
possible solution to our problem. This logic explicitly does not require that we accept a different approach just because it's different, or just because it's possible.
There is no impasse here. It's just that your approach seems to involve sticking rigidly to your own
preferred avenues of exploration. Your choice. No-one can force you to do otherwise, and nor should they, even if they could. Good luck with your cogitations.