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[JackDaydream]

I have always been drawn towards esoteric ideas within religious and other philosophies. Gary Lachman, in ,'The Secret Teachers of the Western World' (2015), suggests that the word esoteric has two meanings, which are the idea of the hidden, or secret, and the idea of the inner aspects of religious teachings. I think that these are both important elements for considering traditions within the West, as well as Eastern systems of thought. One other area of esoteric thought is the way in which the focus within the esoteric traditions is upon the development of the individual consciousness, including ideas of initiation or transmutation, as emphasised by Antoine Faivre and Jacob Needleman (1993), in 'Modern Esoteric Spirituality'.


The roots of esoteric thought go back to the ideas of the Greek philosophers and the Egyptians, and one strong influence has been the figure of Hermes Trismegistus, who wrote, 'The Hermetica. This text has been important for many aspects of esoteric worldviews, including the tradition of alchemy, Esoteric ideas weave in and out of religious perspectives and in the West, a major influence was Gnosticism. This gained more prominence after the Gnostic Gospels were discovered in Nag Hammadi. Also, the attention Carl Jung gave to Gnostic ideas, as well as to played a significant role in the influence in making these ideas less 'hidden.'


I am aware that the topic of esoteric ideas in religious thought is extremely large, because it encompasses the whole field of comparative religion, so my introduction to the topic is a mere sketch. But, I do believe that an extremely important aspect is the theosophical tradition. This draws upon the ideas about other dimensions of reality, as developed by Rudolf Steiner and Manly Hall. However, the tradition was influenced greatly by Madame Blavatsky. While her own psychic claims showed her to be a charlatan, her writings were so influential, and lead to the development of The Theosophical Society. This movement brought forth a strong emphasis on Eastern ideas, especially those arising from the Hindu tradition. It also involved a blending of Christian and Eastern thought, and one key concept is the idea of an underlying focus on the truth underlying all religions.


The esoteric views were essential to the 'new age' movement in the twentieth century, and, even now, many people see such ideas as an alternative to mainstream religious perspectives or to the materialist leanings of many viewpoints within philosophy. I am raising this area of debate in order to ask how useful the esoteric traditions are. In a way, they enable us to think about the mythological and symbolic aspects of our lives. However, part of the reason why such ideas may have been suppressed, but remained underground by movements like the Rosucrucians, is because they challenge authority, placing an emphasis on the authentic quest of the individual. So, I am interested to know what readers on this site think about this general area of thought in connection with the philosophy of religion.

[Nick_A]

It's not that the perennial truths of the great spiritual traditions initiating with a conscious source have been suppressed but that they are not wanted. Jacob Needleman in his book "Lost Christianity asks:

Of course it had been stupid of me to express it in quite that way, but nevertheless the point was worth pondering: does there exist in man a natural attraction to truth and to the struggle for truth that is stronger than the natural attraction to pleasure? The history of religion in the west seems by and large to rest on the assumption that the answer is no. Therefore, externally induced emotions of egoistic fear (hellfire), anticipation of pleasure (heaven), vengeance, etc., have been marshaled to keep people in the faith.

Simone Weil writes on imagination:

Imagination is always the fabric of social life and the dynamic of history. The influence of real needs and compulsions, of real interests and materials, is indirect because the crowd is never conscious of it.

Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life.

Idolatry comes from the fact that, while thirsting for absolute good, we do not possess the power of supernatural attention and we have not the patience to allow it to develop (Simone Weil, Gravity and Grace 53)..

If the human psych is possessed by imagination and lives in Plato's cave concerned with the imaginary pleasures the cave offers, there is no incentive to experience what the truth offers and what it means for the being of Man.

We have to admit that the truth of the human condition can only be wanted or needed by a small minority. It is ironic that only this small minority, regardless of how they are scorned, offers hope that Man will not destroy itself through the process of mutual self destruction.

[3017Metaphysician]

I have always been drawn towards esoteric ideas within religious and other philosophies. Gary Lachman, in ,'The Secret Teachers of the Western World' (2015), suggests that the word esoteric has two meanings, which are the idea of the hidden, or secret, and the idea of the inner aspects of religious teachings. I think that these are both important elements for considering traditions within the West, as well as Eastern systems of thought. One other area of esoteric thought is the way in which the focus within the esoteric traditions is upon the development of the individual consciousness, including ideas of initiation or transmutation, as emphasised by Antoine Faivre and Jacob Needleman (1993), in 'Modern Esoteric Spirituality'.


The roots of esoteric thought go back to the ideas of the Greek philosophers and the Egyptians, and one strong influence has been the figure of Hermes Trismegistus, who wrote, 'The Hermetica. This text has been important for many aspects of esoteric worldviews, including the tradition of alchemy, Esoteric ideas weave in and out of religious perspectives and in the West, a major influence was Gnosticism. This gained more prominence after the Gnostic Gospels were discovered in Nag Hammadi. Also, the attention Carl Jung gave to Gnostic ideas, as well as to played a significant role in the influence in making these ideas less 'hidden.'


I am aware that the topic of esoteric ideas in religious thought is extremely large, because it encompasses the whole field of comparative religion, so my introduction to the topic is a mere sketch. But, I do believe that an extremely important aspect is the theosophical tradition. This draws upon the ideas about other dimensions of reality, as developed by Rudolf Steiner and Manly Hall. However, the tradition was influenced greatly by Madame Blavatsky. While her own psychic claims showed her to be a charlatan, her writings were so influential, and lead to the development of The Theosophical Society. This movement brought forth a strong emphasis on Eastern ideas, especially those arising from the Hindu tradition. It also involved a blending of Christian and Eastern thought, and one key concept is the idea of an underlying focus on the truth underlying all religions.


The esoteric views were essential to the 'new age' movement in the twentieth century, and, even now, many people see such ideas as an alternative to mainstream religious perspectives or to the materialist leanings of many viewpoints within philosophy. I am raising this area of debate in order to ask how useful the esoteric traditions are. In a way, they enable us to think about the mythological and symbolic aspects of our lives. However, part of the reason why such ideas may have been suppressed, but remained underground by movements like the Rosucrucians, is because they challenge authority, placing an emphasis on the authentic quest of the individual. So, I am interested to know what readers on this site think about this general area of thought in connection with the philosophy of religion.

Hey Jack!

Nice OP. I think that's a good synopsis or way of raising awareness of the esoteric and the metaphysical. I've always been a big fan of Gnosticism, and wished that early church history would have somehow allowed at least some of those tenets/teachings. From history, I never thought it should have been an either/or proposition. Chock it up to church politics

It's not the world, it's the people in it
Anyway, I'm subscribed!

[PoeticUniverse]

…the ideas about other dimensions of reality…

None of the ideas of the religious have been shown to be so; wishing and hoping remain, as always.

[stevie]

So, I am interested to know what readers on this site think about this general area of thought in connection with the philosophy of religion.

I can't see a substantial difference between religions and esotericism because both consist of fabricated ideas about what is not evident. Maybe there is a difference as to the mode of presentation of ideas, e.g. as to the extent of integration of logical thinking into the system of thought, the mode of how the ideas are being taught (e.g. secretly or publically) and the like.
Nevertheless due to lack of evidence for their ideas both, religions and esotericism are under suspicion of being mere phantasmagoria and the interesting question arises why some humans are attracted by such systems of thought but other humans are not so attracted. I think that's an interesting area for psychological research.

[JackDaydream]

@Nick_A

Thanks for your reply. It does seem that the interest in the esoteric is often a minority interest and is often contrary to the needs of the ego. I have to admit that in my experience of discussing ideas with people in real life, I am aware that the majority of people don't seem interested in thinking about such matters. It probably does come to whether they have ever come to the point in which they have ever felt the need to step outside the conventional values.


Personally, even though I certainly have egoistic concerns, I have never really felt part of the mainstream of society, and begun reading esoteric books while I was still at school and have continued to do so. It may be that certain experiences in life lead one to step outside of Plato's cave, and once you get accustomed to that it becomes hard to just go back into the cave. Even though unhappiness may be the starting point for the esoteric quest, this seeking may continue and be a way of life of the shaman or mystic. But, fortunately there are certain numbers of people who are interested for the ideas to be validated.

[JackDaydream]

@3017Metaphysican

Hello again, and thank you for your reply to my first thread. I do wonder how different the history of Christianity would have been if the Gnostic teachings, as revealed in the Gnostic gospels, had been incorporated into the church, rather than the main ones. Of course, John' s gospel and the 'Book of Revelation' do have some hints of the Gnostic emphasis on inner knowledge. But, even so, the Christian church has focused on the outer aspects of teachings, even though there is the point made about the hollow and hypocritical thinking of the Pharisees. I think that even if the main gospels are looked at there is some scope for perceiving a more esoteric interpretation.


Somehow, I grew up with that kind of interpretation. This was consolidated by discovering Jung's ideas about religion, and also by reading a book by Victor White, who was a theologian who dialogued with Jung, called 'God and the Unconscious.' However, when I began talking about such ideas in groups which I began going to in some more 'fundamentalist' churches, the majority of people seemed horrified. I remember going to a workshop event in which some individuals told me that I should stop reading such ideas altogether, especially Jung. I was told that such ideas were dangerous new age ideas and were the work of the 'devil'. I felt extremely confused and depressed after this and avoided going to any churches for a long time. I came across dogmatic Christianity long before I encountered dogmatic atheism. I would imagine that trends vary within Christian groups geographically and historically. But, I am really not sure to what extent people who have official roles in churches, have much affinity with Gnostic and other esoteric views in general.


One book which I am familiar with which appears to be far more Gnostic in its understanding of Christianity is 'A Course in Miracles'. It is in many ways a psychological interpretation, which was based on a channeled experience of Helen Schucman, and it focuses upon the separation from 'God' and how this is due to the ego. The underlying perspective is one which tries to point to going beyond this and how this makes it possible to go beyond the feelings of guilt, especially that implied in the concept of original sin. Many people have felt helped by this book, but I understand that the book seen as being heretical by some, including a number of individuals within the Catholic church.

I am also aware of the movement of creation spirituality as a movement within Christianity which has far more sympathy with the esoteric understanding of 'divinity' within, including the writings of Matthew Fox. It draws upon the ideas of Meister Eckart and mysticism, and there is an affinity with the idea of the Cosmic Christ, which I believe was developed by Rudolf Steiner.

[3017Metaphysician]

@3017Metaphysican

Hello again, and thank you for your reply to my first thread. I do wonder how different the history of Christianity would have been if the Gnostic teachings, as revealed in the Gnostic gospels, had been incorporated into the church, rather than the main ones. Of course, John' s gospel and the 'Book of Revelation' do have some hints of the Gnostic emphasis on inner knowledge. But, even so, the Christian church has focused on the outer aspects of teachings, even though there is the point made about the hollow and hypocritical thinking of the Pharisees. I think that even if the main gospels are looked at there is some scope for perceiving a more esoteric interpretation.


Somehow, I grew up with that kind of interpretation. This was consolidated by discovering Jung's ideas about religion, and also by reading a book by Victor White, who was a theologian who dialogued with Jung, called 'God and the Unconscious.' However, when I began talking about such ideas in groups which I began going to in some more 'fundamentalist' churches, the majority of people seemed horrified. I remember going to a workshop event in which some individuals told me that I should stop reading such ideas altogether, especially Jung. I was told that such ideas were dangerous new age ideas and were the work of the 'devil'. I felt extremely confused and depressed after this and avoided going to any churches for a long time. I came across dogmatic Christianity long before I encountered dogmatic atheism. I would imagine that trends vary within Christian groups geographically and historically. But, I am really not sure to what extent people who have official roles in churches, have much affinity with Gnostic and other esoteric views in general.


One book which I am familiar with which appears to be far more Gnostic in its understanding of Christianity is 'A Course in Miracles'. It is in many ways a psychological interpretation, which was based on a channeled experience of Helen Schucman, and it focuses upon the separation from 'God' and how this is due to the ego. The underlying perspective is one which tries to point to going beyond this and how this makes it possible to go beyond the feelings of guilt, especially that implied in the concept of original sin. Many people have felt helped by this book, but I understand that the book seen as being heretical by some, including a number of individuals within the Catholic church.

I am also aware of the movement of creation spirituality as a movement within Christianity which has far more sympathy with the esoteric understanding of 'divinity' within, including the writings of Matthew Fox. It draws upon the ideas of Meister Eckart and mysticism, and there is an affinity with the idea of the Cosmic Christ, which I believe was developed by Rudolf Steiner.

Jack!

What a great story! And a nice so-called paradigm shift. I'm a big Jungian fan. I am going to commit to reading up on this; which books do you recommend, the 'God and the unconscious' ?

[JackDaydream]

@PoeticUniverse

Thank you for replying. You are querying hidden realities spoken of in religious and other spiritual perspectives. I think it is a big question, and naturalist philosophers definitely don't believe in the existence of such hidden dimensions. I think that it is good to think critically about this and I do wonder about what ideas such as the astral plane refer to, even though I had a few out of body experiences. Also, I went to some workshops in transmission meditation, which were meant to be about levelling down the energies of the divine hierarchy of masters. The meditation felt worthwhile, but I did really wonder about and question the actual existence of whether such energies or a divine hierarchy exists really.

But, on the other hand, I do believe that there does appear to be some source beyond us. I know that you write poetry and create art work, even though you do your art on the computer, but the question is where do the ideas and images come from? I know that some writers believe that the balance of right and left sides of the hemispheres plays an important role in imagination instead of logic, but I don't think that explain the actual existence of what flows into the mind.

Often, people enter altered states of consciousness, such as in drug induced experiences. I spend a brief period in life using psychedelics and can remember seeing all kinds of visionary dimensions. One of the most dramatic, was swallowing a packet of morning glory seeds and seeing all kinds of people from history reflected on the wall, and, also, a gothic image, which I took to represent my own shadow self. However, I would not recommend consuming morning glory seeds, as sold in packets for planting, because I ended up with severe stomach ache all night, as the manufacturers coat them with poison to deter people using them for hallucinatory experimentation.


I definitely believe that Jung's idea of the collective unconscious is helpful in thinking about the objective sphere from where symbols come from, and the idea of archetypes goes back to Plato. And, apart from this, there is the idea of there being more than 3 or 4 dimensions, or even multidimensional reality. One notion which I came across was that most of genetic material is contained in the 2 active strands of DNA, but the so-called 'junk DNA' represents untapped potential, which can be awakened. However, ideas about activation of junk DNA are pure speculation.

[JackDaydream]

@3017Metaphysican

One writer who I would definitely recommend is Gary Lachman, because he has written a number of books on introductions to Jung, and esoteric thinkers, including Rudolf Steiner. I think that he has brought a number of ideas into more popular light, and he was famous in the first place because he was the drummer in the 70s pop band 'Blondie'.I think that Rudolf Steiner is worth reading and he wrote so much.

I have found reading Jung so helpful, and it would take years to read all his writings. One volume which I found useful was a collection called 'The Gnostic Jung'. I would love to read Victor White's 'God and the Unconscious', but I can't because my mum admitted that she threw it in the bin because it was so tatty.


But, really I have read so many books from libraries and, unfortunately haven't even written down the titles. One recent book which I found useful was, 'Becoming Supernatural', by Dr Joe Dispenza. And, one which is an e- book, is Huston Smith's, 'Forgotten Truth'. But, in reality, the possible scope for reading goes on and on, and I frequently find appropriate books in charity shops and other places, almost as Jungian synchronicities.

[3017Metaphysician]

Jack!

Don't mean to butt-in...your post to PU reminded me of the LSD experiments that the US government allowed for scientists in the 50-60's. The idea, among other things, was to see if it could enhance or otherwise increase levels of awareness that involved creativity in the answering/resolution of medical and scientific inquiry. Many of the scientists found that once they altered their sense of reality, they were no longer deterred by what they’d been told was impossible.

Anyway, with respect to the esoteric, as a part-time musician/performer myself, when I ventured back into the scene, I discovered there were very little studies associated with the creative mind/cognitive process. The good news is that through our cognition, creating something truly novel is not obviously restricted to any one vocational application. To a greater or lessor extent, all walks of life get to enjoy being creative.

As an aside, I wonder what Darwin said about creativity
Actually, I wonder what Darwin said about human wonderment? Both qualities of consciousness seem to transcend the physical and/or confer no biological survival advantage,(when emergent instinct is all that's needed).

[3017Metaphysician]

@3017Metaphysican

One writer who I would definitely recommend is Gary Lachman, because he has written a number of books on introductions to Jung, and esoteric thinkers, including Rudolf Steiner. I think that he has brought a number of ideas into more popular light, and he was famous in the first place because he was the drummer in the 70s pop band 'Blondie'.I think that Rudolf Steiner is worth reading and he wrote so much.

I have found reading Jung so helpful, and it would take years to read all his writings. One volume which I found useful was a collection called 'The Gnostic Jung'. I would love to read Victor White's 'God and the Unconscious', but I can't because my mum admitted that she threw it in the bin because it was so tatty.


But, really I have read so many books from libraries and, unfortunately haven't even written down the titles. One recent book which I found useful was, 'Becoming Supernatural', by Dr Joe Dispenza. And, one which is an e- book, is Huston Smith's, 'Forgotten Truth'. But, in reality, the possible scope for reading goes on and on, and I frequently find appropriate books in charity shops and other places, almost as Jungian synchronicities.

Thank you sir!

[Nick_A]

Jack

The roots of esoteric thought go back to the ideas of the Greek philosophers and the Egyptians, and one strong influence has been the figure of Hermes Trismegistus, who wrote, 'The Hermetica. This text has been important for many aspects of esoteric worldviews, including the tradition of alchemy, Esoteric ideas weave in and out of religious perspectives and in the West, a major influence was Gnosticism. This gained more prominence after the Gnostic Gospels were discovered in Nag Hammadi. Also, the attention Carl Jung gave to Gnostic ideas, as well as to played a significant role in the influence in making these ideas less 'hidden.'

I cannot share your attraction to Gnosticism since it is based on duality and the struggle between good and evil. I believe in the triune universe in which the ineffable ONE described by Plotinus voluntariiy separates into its three elemental forces at the first level of creation known in Christianity as the Trinity. Hinduism knows them as the three Gunas: These three gunas are tamas (darkness & chaos), rajas (activity & passion), and sattva (beingness & harmony).

The machine of creation is sustained by the relative integration of these three forces at different levels of reality. IMO. limiting it to two is a mistake.

Plato's Chariot analogy is a good example of these three forces. The white horse on the right is immortal while the dark horse is mortal and deformed. It tends to pull the human organism down onto the earth. The driver of the chariot is reason which has the potential to reconcile these two opposing facets of our being from a higher perspective.

[PoeticUniverse]

due to lack of evidence for their ideas both, religions and esotericism are under suspicion of being mere phantasmagoria and the interesting question arises why some humans are attracted by such systems of thought but other humans are not so attracted. I think that's an interesting area for psychological research.

I like that 'phantasmagoria' description. Cognitive science will have to tell us why some humans get really stuck even when coming away with nothing concrete. No one won Randy's million dollar challenge to show anything extra beyond nature.

[PoeticUniverse]

idea of archetypes

Hello Jack from another philosophy forum.

In Jungian theory’ archetype’ is a motif (image, ritual, legend, fear, etc.) that occurs in nearly all cultures in nearly all eras. Jung died before genetics matured into a major science, but today we would say that an archetype is a set of synapses programmed into our brains by evolution. It's a type of instinct. Since something that we have "known" since birth feels more true than anything we learn later through reasoning and learning, archetypes are powerful.

Many of them are survival behaviors that were passed down by natural selection since, for example, if an animal doesn't have the instinct to run away from a larger animal with both eyes in front of its face, it won't live long enough to mate and pass on its genes. But other archetypes may be accidental mutations that were lucky enough to be passed down through a genetic bottleneck or by genetic drift, and they may have no impact, or even a negative impact, on survival.

Junk DNA also contains a record of what we once were, as turned off, although many times evolution just overwrites or continues the older actions' basis with newer ones, such as in our embryonic stages even two primitive kidneys finally get replaced with the third, modern one. Fur also develops but then lessens.

The world is full of superstitions and pseudo science from so-called esoteric 'knowledge' that can't be shown. It's so bad that many even go on to preach it as true and even then layer a further full structure upon it—an intellectual dishonesty.